Mass Shootings in America

[Bram]

Some gun reform legislation passed!

Alright, America! Hope it saves some lives :)

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/21/politics ... index.html

[Gene]

Some gun reform legislation passed!

Alright, America! Hope it saves some lives :)

We can hope that it saves lives. Whether it will be enough for the Elites who want the public disarmed is another matter.

Red Flag funding was part of this package. Trump liked Red Flag.... he assumed that the complaints were genuine. I figure if someone is such a menace that they need disarmed they probably need hauled off too. What is the point of a Red Flag law that leaves people free to buy guns for cash, to buy kitchen knives, gasoline, propane gas and other dangerous substances.

Trump's asinine comments.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ahKYcMxDM

My concern is that Red Flag will be abused as a mechanism to disarm people who are too poor to afford a lawyer.

There is already a study that King County WA Red Flag is used twice as often on Blacks as Whites. This is quoted as part of this paper.

"An easily overlooked finding in this small study now stands out in bold relief: black people were overrepresented in gun removal orders by a factor of nearly 2 to 1 compared to their share of the county population (12.0% vs. 6.9%). "

"We discovered that a significantly higher percentage of nonwhite than white individuals failed to appear at a scheduled court hearing to seek the return of their guns, and thus lost their guns by default (63% vs. 51%; p < 0.05). "

https://injepijournal.biomedcentral.com ... 20-00272-z

We have one famous case of Red Flag abuse - a Mom whose son was killed by a police officer tried to have him Red Flagged.

https://www.9news.com/article/news/crim ... b24b47dafe

Let's hope that others tempted to abuse Red Flag for bullshit purposes learn from her nonsense.

[Gene]

There are lots of ready technologies such as ones letting only the owner shoot the gun , tracking guns, keeping records, etc. The tech exists so I could give you my gun in a hold up and you couldn’t use it on me. Or the neighbor’s kid could find it and try to squeeze the trigger. Smart guns. The NRA has blocked their development and rollout.

Ok, that's as much BS as your post saying "AR15's are the choice of mass shooters" - I mean that's straight out of MomsDemandAction's playbook of lies.

Sometimes suspects will grab for a police officer's firearm or Taser. If Smart Gun technology works let Law Enforcement demonstrate it. Let them prove that Smart Guns save Police lives on the street.

Police sure do need Smart Gun technology....

Suspects who grabbed Officer's gun in the police station...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu4ebX7ydK0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcuqsotIwnI

Grabbing the Officer's gun on the street...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXjEkjSVrv8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1hACJ32XMw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAazVHXJ0i0



Police firearm grabbed, suspect shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RUe9Qi5-yA

Police firearm grabbed used by suspect to shoot at people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FAxXsE0ZR4

There is a definite need for smart gun technology for police.

A. - Neither the NRA nor the NSSF have blocked any smart gun technology or development. Their position is that they don't oppose the technology or the idea, they oppose a mandate to using it. Believe it or not, pro 2a groups are not against technology that makes guns safer. It just has to be reliable, which it is not yet.

B. - Currently smart gun technology is deemed insufficient, unreliable, and incredibly slow. No police agency, no military has adopted it. Until they are willing to set an example, the public surely won't adopt it. It may get there some day, but today is not that day.

The NRA does not control what Police agencies use or cannot use. If Smart Gun tech was effective Police agencies would adopt it.

[nafod]

There is a definite need for smart gun technology for police.
j-cubed wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:41 pm
A. - Neither the NRA nor the NSSF have blocked any smart gun technology or development. Their position is that they don't oppose the technology or the idea, they oppose a mandate to using it. Believe it or not, pro 2a groups are not against technology that makes guns safer. It just has to be reliable, which it is not yet.

B. - Currently smart gun technology is deemed insufficient, unreliable, and incredibly slow. No police agency, no military has adopted it. Until they are willing to set an example, the public surely won't adopt it. It may get there some day, but today is not that day.
The NRA does not control what Police agencies use or cannot use. If Smart Gun tech was effective Police agencies would adopt it.

Colt as well as Smith & Wesson dipped their toes into the smart gun market decades ago, but both faced damaging boycotts from gun rights activists. In Smith & Wesson’s case, the pushback – led by the NRA – was bad enough that it resulted in 125 layoffs.

Obama pushed hard on smart gun development. Did Trump carry it forward? Did the NRA champion it?

The idea that the NRA has no opinion or influence on the issue is not correct.

[Gene]

Colt as well as Smith & Wesson dipped their toes into the smart gun market decades ago, but both faced damaging boycotts from gun rights activists. In Smith & Wesson’s case, the pushback – led by the NRA – was bad enough that it resulted in 125 layoffs.

Obama pushed hard on smart gun development. Did Trump carry it forward? Did the NRA champion it?

The idea that the NRA has no opinion or influence on the issue is not correct.

Thank you for tacitly admitting that "smart gun" technology does not yet exist. I hope that you will review the videos I provided and will agree that Law Enforcement needs such technology. Continuum of Force requires police to expose themselves to gun snatchers - they need Smart Gun technology more than we civilians.

Once police agencies have demonstrated that this technology works and is reliable, it will be easy to sell "smart gun" technology to the public.

[nafod]

Colt as well as Smith & Wesson dipped their toes into the smart gun market decades ago, but both faced damaging boycotts from gun rights activists. In Smith & Wesson’s case, the pushback – led by the NRA – was bad enough that it resulted in 125 layoffs.

Obama pushed hard on smart gun development. Did Trump carry it forward? Did the NRA champion it?

The idea that the NRA has no opinion or influence on the issue is not correct.

Thank you for tacitly admitting that "smart gun" technology does not yet exist. I hope that you will review the videos I provided and will agree that Law Enforcement needs such technology. Continuum of Force requires police to expose themselves to gun snatchers - they need Smart Gun technology more than we civilians.

Once police agencies have demonstrated that this technology works and is reliable, it will be easy to sell "smart gun" technology to the public.

If the police was a monolithic unit like the DoD or the NRA, we’d probably already be there. There would have been serious funding and experimentation. Instead, they’re a collective of lots of relatively small forces that take advantage of what the DoD and commercial companies come up with.

They are also uniquely in need of the technology, being in constant close proximity to people who want their guns. Agree with you on that for sure.

The tech is there to make them work. If the NRA would get behind them…

[Gene]

If the police was a monolithic unit like the DoD or the NRA, we’d probably already be there. There would have been serious funding and experimentation. Instead, they’re a collective of lots of relatively small forces that take advantage of what the DoD and commercial companies come up with.

Better do your homework a little better, Nafod.....

https://www.ojp.gov/program/lawenforcement/overview

https://cops.usdoj.gov/chp

https://cops.usdoj.gov/grants

1033 program for police departments....

"As of June 2020, there are around 8,200 federal, state and local law enforcement agencies from 49 states and four U.S. territories participating in the program. A law enforcement agency is defined as a government agency whose primary function is the enforcement of applicable federal, state and local laws and whose compensated law enforcement officers have the powers of arrest and apprehension"

https://www.dla.mil/DispositionServices ... mFAQs.aspx

The DOJ even issued a baseline on smart gun policy...

https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/bl ... technology


I found this in a few minutes....

[Gene]

They are also uniquely in need of the technology, being in constant close proximity to people who want their guns. Agree with you on that for sure.

Are you suggesting that one goal of Smart Gun technology is to disarm peons in the presence of Police officers? So that police are safe in close proximity to armed peons? How does one do that? Through radio signals? Is the gun so smart that it won't shoot anyone in a uniform? Kind of doubt it.

So it's some sort of radio signal. If such a technology would disable smart handguns around police, why wouldn't criminals also use it? We are already seeing gadgets meant to open cars used by criminals. Wouldn't it be nice to stop John and Jane Q Peon from shooting back? Make people distrust handguns for self defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfSRLsCA-Bw

Come on.... we're not THAT stupid, Nafod.

The tech is there to make them work. If the NRA would get behind them…

The NRA has no influence outside of the US. Police all over the world grapple with dangerous criminals. Many police carry handguns. Can you list one nation, Nafod, that uses "Smart Gun" technology?

I don't see any and I know that NRA is considered a sick joke offshore by many places.

To me "Smart Gun" tech is abused as a de jure handgun ban. Nobody can have a handgun until the smart tech works. It's a chickenshit policy meant to appeal to safety while disarming the masses. More elitism from Wall Street plutocrats who bankroll gun control organizations. The NRA prevents this chickenshit by requiring that the tech works first.

Blaming the S&W boycott? Who the fuck put S&W into that mess, Nafod? Andy Cuomo. He sued S&W to obey the Brady Campaign. He was going to abuse our Tort System to impose his personal values of gun ownership onto a company.

This one of the reasons why I bust on you about gun control, Nafod. People react, sometimes in ways that you don't like. You can't pass a law and expect people to eat it.

Didn't the gun control lobby learn anything from Prohibition and the War on Drugs? Guess not.....

[Gene]

The idea that the NRA has no opinion or influence on the issue is not correct.

I used to be a Drug Warrior. I remember that sense of self righteousness and myopia. The power by proxy. I figured I could force sobriety onto the world. I remember thinking that I was right, everyone who wanted legalization was a "dope freak".

I remember Reagan, zero tolerance, and Biden's civil forfeiture. Toss 'em in jail, lock 'em up. "Dope Freaks" didn't deserve Due Process. They deserved to go to prison. If you could imagine a vile sense of retribution I was for it. Soil them, abuse them, bury them under the jail. We would make America sober and clean.

I was society's warrior for sobriety. I'm not proud of it today. I think I was a dumb kid. I remember that all of those arguments about prohibition, about how the market responds and how underground markets drive up prices and give risk takers big profits. I thought that they were all bullshit. Underground markets were dope dealers. Toss 'em all in jail.

I thought that we would win, that people would get sober and we'd all be happy. All we had to do was be harsh enough and we'd win.

I had a lot to learn, about underground markets, about risk and reward, and about how people who want stuff will find a way to get it. There is a whole other side to Prohibition that most people ignore. After fifty years of the "War on Drugs" school kids can still get weed. Yet we're going to disarm adults? Ok....

What got my attention is when I heard Bill Bennett say "Assault weapons are the gun of choice of drug dealers". I started to learn how many kids were killing each other over sales turf. Dead kids who were added to the gun control body count.

Later I got busted in a sobriety checkpoint for being out of inspection. While I waited for the paperwork I got to watch. I watched three State police whispering over who was going to "do" a girl in a white Mercedes Benz. I remember her sour expression and remember those guys giggling. A DOT cop was doing a field sobriety test. He had on his mickey mouse helmet, was walking through the tests. I felt like I was in a circus.

I deserved the ticket. I thought that a sobriety checkpoint was a dirty trick.

I went to the Pitt Law Library. I read the idiotic Supreme Court decision that legalized sobriety check points. It was some court case from Michigan. The justices were afraid that drunk drivers would crash their cars fleeing from police. Our fourth amendment rights were flushed down the toilet because someone was afraid that drunk drivers would crash their cars. A bullshit policy trumps our rights argument.

People in sobriety checks get plowed into as well. They don't protect us from drunk drivers.

https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news ... heckpoint/

The War on Drugs hurt our Constitutional Rights. All of them.

I don't drink or use dope. I don't pretend to power by proxy.

I know that people want those fat profits. I don't care if dope users want to go to prison, but I bet that they don't, and I have since learned that marijuana bans were racist. I figure if people want to drink beer or smoke a joint it's not my fucking business. If they want to use Meth then they're stupid. We should have drugs that blunt the hunger for meth or coke.

The same people who sell dope can sell guns. People want guns. They like guns. They believe that guns give them power. Wanting power is a fundamental thing of everyone, of all living creatures. Everything alive fights helplessness.


A BBC article about smart guns. They whine about American gun owners.

Guess that police lives don't matter, do they? Not a single word about police grappling with suspects.... so much for police lives.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27520267

[Gene]

We've had fingerprint swipes for a long time, to activate computers and cell phones.

Use a Glock style block trigger. The surface facing forward has an optical sensor or its surface is an optical or touch sensor. Any part of your fingers will work. It "sees" your finger, you squeeze the trigger. Probably could use energy harvesting so that no battery is required, a very small low power processor. It won't move into activation until it sees the proper finger. Police could issue gloves with the fingertips exposed.

Glock and other two part triggers could do this, then sell the firearms to police agencies. People like those fingertip gloves. No official registry. You apply the information yourself through an App or Open Source program. For a police agency? Everyone on the force can use each other's handguns. No radio bullshit. No interference. The trigger doesn't even do anything until you apply pressure on it.

The NRA doesn't matter in Austria. The NRA isn't going to bitch if it's not required tech for US gun sales. Police agencies could use it, demonstrate that it works reliably.

The big issue is who decides that the gun is 'legal'. The NRA doesn't want a gun registry. I don't either. Hughes and Rangel slagged any hope of a handgun registry by fucking with the NFA registry. They earned our distrust. We're not stupid people.

[nafod]

Are you suggesting that one goal of Smart Gun technology is to disarm peons in the presence of Police officers? So that police are safe in close proximity to armed peons?

No, I am suggesting cops don’t want to be shot with their own gun.

[j-cubed]

Death by gun shot is the leading cause of death for children now.

And also, if you're going to parrot the gun control org's talking points, make sure to parrot their whole official line.

"Death by gun shot is the leading cause of death in children and teens now." Because 18 and 19 year old's are legal adults, not children, but technically still teens.

If you don't count the legal adults, the 18 and 19 year old people (which Rockefeller and John Hopkins include as children), that are killing each other, than that statement is very much not true. Rockefeller and John Hopkins also don't include or count infant deaths or congenital abnormalities in child deaths. If they did, the statement would be false.

The reality is that accidental deaths from firearms was at an all time low pre-Covid. Admittedly, there has been an uptick since 2020. Suicide and gang violence is up. Let's focus on that maybe.

However, since cars have gotten safer, and medical treatments have gotten better, I would not be surprised for firearm deaths to start to take a higher spot on the list. There is a real problem with the reported "Child" firearm homicide rate in the disingenuousness of the data from gun control groups, because of their political agenda. They want people to imagine the worst, to have an image of what the deaths are that is not consistent with the actual data, because they know they would lose support and there would be less outrage if they came out and said most of those "children" are 18-19 year old violent criminals.

[nafod]

What are the numbers for children children dead by gun shot each year?

[j-cubed]

What are the numbers for children children dead by gun shot each year?

What's that saying, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics?
Getting data the way one would want is often difficult but we'll do the best we can.

Data from this link, and the University of Michigan Injury Prevention Center for 2016 says the firearm homicide rate of 1-19 year olds is 2.39, Suicide is 1.42 and unintentional is 0.16
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/n ... f%20deaths.


For 2020, the John Hopkins report lists rates as below.
Data from https://publichealth.jhu.edu/sites/defa ... 2022-b.pdf

firearm homicide rate of 1-19 year olds is 3.46, Suicide is 1.59 and unintentional is 0.18


The caveat is that one is doing an "age adjusted" rate, the other is not. Still, probably close enough for trends and discussion.

Age 1-19 rates 2016 vs 2020
Firearm homicide 2.39 vs 3.46
Firearm Suicide 1.42 vs 1.59 - the increase mostly follows the increasing trend that started around 2005.
Unintentional 0.16 vs 0.18. I actually expected the difference here to be greater, but OK Accidental deaths didn't spike like homicides. Kids really didn't kill themselves by finding their parents guns while staying home during covid.

Unfortunately, while both UofM and John Hopkins call out deaths in children (1-19) they then break their data in age groups of 5-14,15-24, 25-34, etc.
Statista shows data for 2019 by age. https://www.statista.com/statistics/258 ... es-by-age/



So basically kids in elementary and middle school are not being gunned down left and right, especially compared to the older teens and early 20's.

Below is john Hopkins graph showing the leading cause of deaths in 1-19 year olds is firearm related.


Then they break it down to this graph - again I wish they broke the age groups out more, but black males 15-34 have a 17.9x higher firearm homicide rate than the national average. This totally correlates to the graphs I had in a post on the previous page about minority homicide rates.



Another view of similar data,




Interestingly, if we look at the overall firearm death rates we see that the firearm homicide rate had been on a decline since the 1990's all the way until Trump got elected, then really spiked when we had Covid restrictions and BLM riots. Suicide rates have started trending upwards since social media really took off, how many of the suicide increases in 2020 are from the general trend, or major events like covid/riots I don't know.



Now John Hopkins making this data will come to different recommendations than others may. They would want to enact strict gun control legislation on everyone, when a big part of the problem are a specific demographic, in specific cities, that have been run by liberal leftist policies for decades.

[motherjuggs&speed]

I found this interesting. It's dishonest labeling though because he presents no solutions. It's also dishonest reasoning when he says that since guns have been around for a long time and a high number of mass shootings is a relatively recent phenomenon, guns aren't part of it. Of course they are since they are the tool that's used. If we had a lot of maniacs killing people with axes, clearly the axe was some part of it. I'm not saying that gun (or axe) control is what we need, just that you can't say that the thing that allows a person to kill lots of people has nothing to do with that person killing lots of people with the thing that allows him to kill lots of people.

[nafod]

It’s the gun cult (ure). That’s the thing that wasn’t around before. The AR15s are just an inevitable end point in the cult train.

Happy 4th, dead people in Illinois killed by another young white male.

[Ronald RayGun]

I just took a gander @ the pic of the fella. 20 Paypal bucks says he's Hispanic.

[nafod]

Hispanic.

Italian

[Ronald RayGun]

Shit.

[Gene]

It’s the gun cult (ure). That’s the thing that wasn’t around before.

This is victim blaming. Threaten people with prison or murder in their homes for owning an inanimate object, then blame them for politically defending themselves. Naturally there will emerge a culture around such a movement.

Contrast between Hubert Humphrey, JFK and Lyndon Johnson....

"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible." Hubert Humphrey (know your lawmaker, guns magazine 1960)

"“In my own native state of Massachusetts, the battle for American freedom was begun by the thousands of farmers and tradesmen who made up the Minute Men―citizens who were ready to defend their liberty at a moment’s notice. Today we need a nation of minute men; citizens who are not only prepared to take up arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as a basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom. The cause of liberty, the cause of America, cannot succeed with any lesser effort.”" - John F Kennedy

The NRA would fish for congratulatory messages from Presidents....

https://sites.law.duke.edu/secondthough ... isenhower/

Of course nobody was radical about guns, because nobody was radical about gun control.

Things changed under LBJ - Lyndon Johnson's comments on the GCA of 1968

"The voices that blocked these safeguards were not the voices of an aroused nation. They were the voices of a powerful lobby, a gun lobby, that has prevailed for the moment in an election year.

But the key to effective crime control remains, in my judgment, effective gun control. And those of us who are really concerned about crime just must--somehow, someday--make our voices felt. We must continue to work for the day when Americans can get the full protection that every American citizen is entitled to and deserves-the kind of protection that most civilized nations have long ago adopted. We have been through a great deal of anguish these last few months and these last few years-too much anguish to forget so quickly.

So now we must complete the task which this long needed legislation begins. We have come a long way. We have made much progress--but not nearly enough."

https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documen ... l-act-1968

The NRA ILA did not exist until 1975. As much as Johnson bitched about the 'gun lobby' the NRA participated in the NFA of 1932 and the GCA of 1968. The NRA consultant in 1932 said that the Right to Keep and Bear Arms was not an individual right.

Handgun Control Inc and The National Coalition to Ban Handguns started in the early 1970s. The CIA helped them a little bit. William Colby helped to start the NCBH. Edwin O Welles of the CIA helped Shields to start HCI.

The NRA considered leaving Washington DC. The NRA ILA did not exist until 1975. In 1977, under Neal Knox, the NRA got radical. Why? Read below.


"Due to its many structural imperfections, the Gun Control Act was susceptible to abusive enforcement. During the time prior to its enactment, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (“BATF”) had quickly grown into a powerful and successful enforcement agency with a strong focus on regulating alcohol. 5

"BATF began to focus heavily on enforcing the Gun Control Act. The agency’s eagerness to prove itself led to “pressure for results [which, when] coupled with extremely loose control, led to stringent enforcement of the Gun Control Act’s provisions.” In fact, testimony in the Senate Judiciary Committee prior to FOPA’s enactment revealed that “enforcement of the act’s restrictions ha[d] resulted in infringements of basic individual liberties, such as abusive search and seizure practices and unwarranted prosecutions for mere technical violations of the law.

https://www.illinoislawreview.org/wp-co ... renner.pdf (pp 1053, 1054) (pages 9, 10 on my pdf reader)
The FOPA froze the NFA registry... this matters.

[Gene]

The AR15s are just an inevitable end point in the cult train.

Colt firearms started selling the sporter version of the AR15 in the 1960s. I posted an advertisement for it here. The more notorious that it gets, the more that people want to get one.

The actual lobbyist group for the gun industry has their 2 cents worth....

https://www.nssf.org/msr/

[Gene]

Happy 4th, dead people in Illinois killed by another young white male.

Yeah, there are some odd things about that shooting and Awake the Rapper.

Illinois has Red Flag. This kid was a walking talking advertisement for Red Flag. Violent social media posts,

Illinois has a FOID, required to buy a firearm or ammunition.

Wonder what they mean by "High Powered Weapon"? There is an assault weapons ban in Highland Park Ill has been since 2013.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/bre ... story.html

Chicago had 13 killed and 70 wounded since the first of the month. When is this country going to start having a serious conversation about the failed War on Drugs?

https://heyjackass.com/


New Yorks contribution this weekend was 3 dead and 22 wounded. Don't know if it's the whole State or just NYC.

[nafod]

Illinois has a FOID, required to buy a firearm or ammunition.

Where do the guns in Illinois come from?

[Gene]

Illinois has a FOID, required to buy a firearm or ammunition.

Where do the guns in Illinois come from?

Most came from Illinois, at least as of 2017. Go to page 10 of the 2017 trace report.

https://www.chicago.gov/content/dam/cit ... TR2017.pdf

In 2017 a straw purchaser (lied on Form 4473) got probation.... charged with four felony purchases of firearms. One of them was "capable of piercing a bullet proof vest."

"While she was charged with two counts of illegal transfer of Firearms and two counts of selling a firearm without a valid FOID, officials noted at the time she was unlikely to serve jail time despite the four felony charges, though she would likely see “permanent revocation of her FOID card.”"

https://www.guns.com/news/2017/04/17/st ... -jail-time

She got probation....

https://www.arlingtoncardinal.com/2017/ ... probation/


Straw purchaser who bought a firearm for an underaged kid, get eight months in prison. In 2019. The kid used it in a mass shooting.

"Blackman’s defense attorney, Michael Leonard, tried to underscore Blackman’s lack of criminal history and said that Blackman is “not the guy we’re looking for to solve the gun problem.”"

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2021 ... land-visit

We'll have to see if Jaamal gets the book thrown at him. 27 firearms illegally purchased. This is from 2022.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/pr/ma ... -suburbs-0

One time, Nafod, I purchased two handguns within a week, I had my named turned in on a ATF watch list. "Gun Trafficking". I wonder if Jamal's name on the list got him on the radar?


So, Nafod... we have people getting slaps on the wrist for gun trafficking... and you wonder why so many underaged kids can buy firearms? Ordinary people go on special lists...

Hopefully the new law on Straw Purchasing will clean this up a little.... We'll see if anyone is even jailed under these new laws.

[Grandpa's Spells]

Illinois has a FOID, required to buy a firearm or ammunition.

Where do the guns in Illinois come from?

Most came from Illinois, at least as of 2017. Go to page 10 of the 2017 trace report.

40% (see page 7) isn't "most," but still.

It's not a walled city. Hammond, IN is 15 minutes away.