IGX

I never understood this debate for the simple fact that since being an undocumented alien is illegal, 100% of them are criminals. But, it has become a frequent refrain that commit crimes at a lower rate than legal residents. Well, no, they don't.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/illegal- ... 00979.html



The study analyzes the most recent illegal alien incarceration data available from the federal government's State Criminal Alien Assistance Program (SCAAP), which reimburses states for a small portion of the costs of incarcerating criminal illegal aliens. The report looks at SCAAP payments to states with large illegal alien populations and compares it to the public records of state and local prisons. The states analyzed include: Arizona, California, Florida, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Texas and Washington which, together, comprise the majority – 65 percent – of the nation's illegal alien population. Importantly, the report does not include illegal aliens who have been convicted of federal criminal charges and are serving time in a Federal Bureau of Prison facility.

"This study should put to rest, once and for all, the notion that illegal aliens commit crimes at a lower rate than legal residents," said FAIR President Dan Stein. "By focusing on states with significant illegal alien populations and that consistently report to the SCAAP program, FAIR's study refutes this erroneous claim," he said. "Contrary to the popular myth, this analysis shows that when applied nationally, SCAAP data from key states suggest that illegal aliens are incarcerated at three times the rate of legal residents, on average."

IMHO, we should improve and streamline our immigration and guest worker programs. There should be a fair, accessible, and inclusive way to come to this country which prioritizes people who can contribute to our society. However, there should be NO DEBATE about the fact that we need to secure our borders and remove illegals. Control of the national territory is one of the defining aspects of a nation state, period.

So SCAAP is a program that pays money for incarcerated illegals, giving an obvious incentive to incarcerate more illegals, and the authors use that data as their unbiased sample?

Doesn’t pass the smell test. Wonder if private prisons are involved.

This study is far better referenced.

https://www.cato.org/publications/immig ... ndnote-003

Conclusion

The homicide conviction rate for illegal immigrants was 16 percent below that of native-born Americans in Texas in 2015. The conviction rates for illegal immigrants were 7.9 percent and 77 percent below that of native-born Americans for sex crimes and larceny, respectively. For all criminal convictions in Texas in 2015, illegal immigrants had a criminal conviction rate 50 percent below that of native-born Americans. Legal immigrants had a criminal conviction rate 66 percent below that of native-born Americans.

“Forty-two million seekers of citizenship or asylum are watching to determine exactly when and how is the best time to make the move,” Gallup CEO Jim Clifton concluded in his Chairman’s Blog. “This suggests that open borders could potentially attract 42 million Latin Americans. A full 5 million who are planning to move in the next 12 months say they are moving to the U.S.”

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/chairma ... -border.as

nafod wrote: ↑Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:55 pm So SCAAP is a program that pays money for incarcerated illegals, giving an obvious incentive to incarcerate more illegals, and the authors use that data as their unbiased sample?

Doesn’t pass the smell test. Wonder if private prisons are involved.

This study is far better referenced.

https://www.cato.org/publications/immig ... ndnote-003

Conclusion

The homicide conviction rate for illegal immigrants was 16 percent below that of native-born Americans in Texas in 2015. The conviction rates for illegal immigrants were 7.9 percent and 77 percent below that of native-born Americans for sex crimes and larceny, respectively. For all criminal convictions in Texas in 2015, illegal immigrants had a criminal conviction rate 50 percent below that of native-born Americans. Legal immigrants had a criminal conviction rate 66 percent below that of native-born Americans.

Hello, Mouse. My name is Trap.

The Cato Institute is operated by Charles Koch, yes that Charles Koch and promotes increased immigration, amnesty for illegals, and open borders and opposes improved border security. In other words, they promote the exact immigration reforms that the Democrats and "business friendly" Republicans are for; they are the voice of big corporations who want cheap labor and atomized communities.

Also, the study you are citing has been subject to a fair amount of scrutiny in its own right and the results were...not good. I trust you to operate your search engine responsibly.

Also, there is no "incentive" to incarcerate illegals, they are here breaking the law by illegally entering the country or overstaying visas. Why would you defend that behavior? And what kind of pretext is that for immigration when the first thing you do is commit a crime?

When you get your data from people paying out for incarcerating illegals, and so the receivers have an obvious huge incentive to inflate figures if not just selectively incarcerate illegals, then the data is suspect.

The study you cite is a joke.

I know the Cato Report has the anti-imigre panties tightly bunched, but at least their raw data sources aren’t from sources that have a financial interest in lying.

nafod wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:47 am When you get your data from people paying out for incarcerating illegals, and so the receivers have an obvious huge incentive to inflate figures if not just selectively incarcerate illegals, then the data is suspect.

The study you cite is a joke.

I know the Cato Report has the anti-imigre panties tightly bunched, but at least their raw data sources aren’t from sources that have a financial interest in lying.

The program is called the State Criminal Alien Assistance Program and it is operated by the Bureau of Justice Assistance under the Department of Justice. It reimburses states that incurred correctional officer salary costs for incarcerating undocumented criminal aliens. It only provides reimbursement for criminal aliens which have been vetted by the Department of Homeland Security and requires that the claim be certified by the State's chief legal officer.

From the SCAAP FY 2018 Program Requirements and Application Instructions:

A materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement to the federal government (or concealment or omission of a material fact) as part of a required certification, or in the application that it supports, may be the subject of criminal prosecution (including under 18 U.S.C. §§ 1001 and/or 1621, and/or 34 U.S.C. §§ 10271-10273), and also may subject both the “submitting government official” and the applicant government to civil penalties and administrative remedies for false claims or otherwise (including under 31 U.S.C. §§ 3729-3730 and §§ 3801-3812). Also, certifications provided to OJP in connection with the FY 2018 program are subject to review by DOJ, including by OJP and by the DOJ Office of the Inspector General.

In other words, while no program is completely immune to fraud, this study is far, far, far more reliable, more highly vetted, and the claims in it subject to far more scrutiny and far higher penalties than your Koch Bros will ever be.

The only way to answer any question in a meaningful way is to do a systematic literature review. Wikipedia cites 24 references related to immigration (both legal and illegal) and crime in the USA. One has to take every one of them apart in order to be able to voice an opinion on the subject. Taking the complexity of the topic into account the comment ""This study should put to rest, once and for all..." sounds amateurish.

One remark: the study quoted at the beginning of this thread talks about the incarceration rate and not crime rate. Though related they are not the same.

"American IQ Levels Plummeting, Crime Rates Skyrocketing...Must Be Global Warming" - The Jew York Times, February 2039

Sangoma wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:12 amOne remark: the study quoted at the beginning of this thread talks about the incarceration rate and not crime rate. Though related they are not the same.

I hadn't even gotten to that obvious analysis fail.

By what criteria are they incarcerated vs deported?

nafod wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:25 pm

Sangoma wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:12 amOne remark: the study quoted at the beginning of this thread talks about the incarceration rate and not crime rate. Though related they are not the same.

I hadn't even gotten to that obvious analysis fail.

Yes, of course, but they are incarcerated because they have been arrested for a crime. That's why they've been designated as "criminal alien" by the DOJ.

Thud wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:11 pm By what criteria are they incarcerated vs deported?

It's a fair question, and it may vary somewhat from state to state. However, it's not an either/or question, as they would frequently be detained prior to deportation if they've been arrested for a criminal offense.

Sangoma wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:12 am The only way to answer any question in a meaningful way is to do a systematic literature review. Wikipedia cites 24 references related to immigration (both legal and illegal) and crime in the USA. One has to take every one of them apart in order to be able to voice an opinion on the subject. Taking the complexity of the topic into account the comment ""This study should put to rest, once and for all..." sounds amateurish.

One remark: the study quoted at the beginning of this thread talks about the incarceration rate and not crime rate. Though related they are not the same.

LOL no you don't get the fuck out with that pedantic BS. Water is wet. Fire burns. Do you need to examine every instance of fire to "voice an opinion" on that?

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:40 pm

Thud wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:11 pm By what criteria are they incarcerated vs deported?

It's a fair question, and it may vary somewhat from state to state. However, it's not an either/or question, as they would frequently be detained prior to deportation if they've been arrested for a criminal offense.

What needs to be separated out is how much of these incarcerations are the result of merely entering the country illegally vs committing crimes of significance once here.

If your kludge is that they are all criminals by definition of entering the country illegally, then of course the rates of incarceration will be higher, by definition.

Thud wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:03 pm What needs to be separated out is how much of these incarcerations are the result of merely entering the country illegally vs committing crimes of significance once here.

Not sure that entering a country illegally is not a crime of significance. It certainly shows a total disregard for the laws of the nation they claim to want to be a part of.

Thud wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:03 pm If your kludge is that they are all criminals by definition of entering the country illegally, then of course the rates of incarceration will be higher, by definition.

They are criminals, by definition. They also tend to be incarcerated at higher rates, thus further burdening the states. If people want to come to the US, or any country, they should do it legally. I legally entered and exited 5 different countries in the past 12 months, it can be done.

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:46 pm

Sangoma wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:12 am The only way to answer any question in a meaningful way is to do a systematic literature review. Wikipedia cites 24 references related to immigration (both legal and illegal) and crime in the USA. One has to take every one of them apart in order to be able to voice an opinion on the subject. Taking the complexity of the topic into account the comment ""This study should put to rest, once and for all..." sounds amateurish.

One remark: the study quoted at the beginning of this thread talks about the incarceration rate and not crime rate. Though related they are not the same.

LOL no you don't get the fuck out with that pedantic BS. Water is wet. Fire burns. Do you need to examine every instance of fire to "voice an opinion" on that?

It's not pedantic, it's didactic. A hint: there is a reason a law library looks like this:

Don't flatter yourself, you're not teaching anyone anything by trying to make a stupid point. You have not read every study in the medical field, or even in your sub-discipline, so tell me, are you really qualified to voice a medical opinion? You made a dumb point, own up to it and move on.

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:57 pm
They are criminals, by definition....If people want to come to the US, or any country, they should do it legally.

This is the crux of your argument. The rates of incarceration are debatable and, really, moot.

Unfortunately refugees (economic or otherwise) are often desperate, and unfortunately for you and them, often brown, impoverished, and otherwise not the most eligible candidates under legal circumstances.

Immigration will continue to be a struggle globally for a long time. Putting up a wall ain't gonna solve it. Neither will demagoguery. So what else ya got?

Thud wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:26 pm

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:57 pm
They are criminals, by definition....If people want to come to the US, or any country, they should do it legally.

This is the crux of your argument. The rates of incarceration are debatable and, really, moot.

Unfortunately refugees (economic or otherwise) are often desperate, and unfortunately for you and them, often brown, impoverished, and otherwise not the most eligible candidates under legal circumstances.

Immigration will continue to be a struggle globally for a long time. Putting up a wall ain't gonna solve it. Neither will demagoguery. So what else ya got?

No, it's not really the crux of my argument. It is a data-supported answer to the claim that illegal aliens commit less crime and are therefore, somehow, a blessing on our great society.

Now, perhaps you didn't know, but refugees and economic migrants are not the same thing. There is a process in place for refugees to claim asylum, and there is a legal immigration process for economic migrants who want to live in the United States. I am all for improving them, but for your own sake, assuming that people are racist because they don't want unchecked illegal immigration is myopic and stupid. I live, and have lived, my entire life around "brown" people and so that really has no bearing on my feelings at all.

But the wall...the wall is interesting. I like the idea. I'm glad you raised it. Do walls work? It worked in Israel on their border with the West Bank. They had 78 suicide bombings from there in the year before the wall was in place, and only 12 the year after. That strikes me as a success against a highly motivated adversary. And then there's the Saudi wall on their border with Iraq. Obama financed it and it was built by Airbus with EU subsidization. If it works for them, why not us? Do you think that these brown people are stupid? Or do you think that perhaps you don't know what you're talking about?

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:27 pm Don't flatter yourself, you're not teaching anyone anything by trying to make a stupid point. You have not read every study in the medical field, or even in your sub-discipline, so tell me, are you really qualified to voice a medical opinion? You made a dumb point, own up to it and move on.

My point is not dumb: not every criminal is incarcerated. I can argue that illegal immigrants are less likely to get best legal representation and therefore their incarceration versus arrest rates are higher. Is this argument unreasonable? Of course, you need another study to answer this point, but hell, you found one that agrees with what you already believe, no need to look further. So every objection to your opinion is dumb.

Am I qualified to voice medical opinion even if I haven't read every study? Are you trying to make me laugh or building a straw man?

"More crime" is only part of the problem.
The US has abdicated control over immigration to admit millions of impoverished Third World people. This is a consequential* experiment that seems to be working poorly in several other western nations.



*And dangerous, IMO.

Sangoma wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:47 am My point is not dumb: not every criminal is incarcerated. I can argue that illegal immigrants are less likely to get best legal representation and therefore their incarceration versus arrest rates are higher. Is this argument unreasonable? Of course, you need another study to answer this point, but hell, you found one that agrees with what you already believe, no need to look further. So every objection to your opinion is dumb.

You said:

Sangoma wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:47 amWikipedia cites 24 references related to immigration (both legal and illegal) and crime in the USA. One has to take every one of them apart in order to be able to voice an opinion on the subject.

That is dumb.

Your point now, which has changed, is that they may not receive adequate legal representation and thus be incarcerated at a higher rate. I don't think that's unreasonable, in fact I think it's likely. But, a few points about that: (i) incarceration can occur both before and after a trial so legal representation is not necessarily a factor; (ii) they are in the country illegally and therefor are already subject to incarceration, other crimes notwithstanding.

Sangoma wrote: ↑Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:47 am Am I qualified to voice medical opinion even if I haven't read every study? Are you trying to make me laugh or building a straw man?

Neither; I am illustrating to you the stupidity of your original comment. Which, judging from your reaction, you now acknowledge if only in a backhanded way.

Your posts form a tautology, i.e., a statement that is true by it's form. You say illegals commit more crime and then say all illegals have committed a crime by definition of being illegal. It's your safe space for the argument.

It actually makes sense that people who have more to lose if they get caught take greater pains not to commit a crime. And the data supports it.

I remember sitting in my second drivers re-education class after getting too many speeding tickets again, and listening to my fellow students whine about how the legal speeds were low, laws were stupid,etc. Most of them were taking the class to get back their license. The instructor said, I know most of you are still driving, and you will go to jail if you get pulled over, so you are obeying the law. So don't tell me you can't. Everybody looked at each other, like, who me?

.

https://cis.org/Report/Examination-US-I ... ious-Crime



Not all immigrant groups are equal; I'm pretty sure that when the hundred year old version of the list was made, that my ancestors were at the top of the list for good reason. In my area, MS13 is a real problem-- and most of those kids are immigrants. To my knowledge, none of the other immigrant groups are close.