Russia and Ukraine

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Protobuilder » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:39 am

DARTH wrote:Cunts like you need Jon Stewart and Google, the rest of us READ FUCKING BOOKS ABOUT SUCH THINGS! :finga:
I find it hard to believe that you've ever read a book.
WildGorillaMan wrote:Enthusiasm combined with no skill whatsoever can sometimes carry the day.

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by nafod » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:16 pm

Wild Bill wrote:I declare sanction on US!
I stop to buy any products of Heinz!

And Calve (it is sanction on EU)

And mars or snickers...

It will be difficult of course... but US must be punished!
I am burning my kettlebells in protest
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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by DARTH » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:17 pm

Phaedrus wrote:
DARTH wrote:Cunts like you need Jon Stewart and Google, the rest of us READ FUCKING BOOKS ABOUT SUCH THINGS! :finga:
I find it hard to believe that you've ever read a book.
I don't find it hard to believe your a cumdumpster.




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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Batboy2/75 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:50 pm

Let me ask you guys a question; why is Joe Biden in Poland giving reassurances that we will defend the Balkan states and Poland? I mean other than NATO treaty stipulations etc. Why isn't Merkel or Hollande or Cameron giving that speech? Because the big dumb Americans can be trusted to foot the bill when blood and treasure is needed for some senseless European land squabble going back centuries.

Do you guys really believe any of our NATO allies would come running to help if we got into a shooting war with the Chinese?
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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by nafod » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:10 pm

Batboy2/75 wrote:Let me ask you guys a question; why is Joe Biden in Poland giving reassurances that we will defend the Balkan states and Poland? I mean other than NATO treaty stipulations etc. Why isn't Merkel or Hollande or Cameron giving that speech? Because the big dumb Americans can be trusted to foot the bill when blood and treasure is needed for some senseless European land squabble going back centuries.

Do you guys really believe any of our NATO allies would come running to help if we got into a shooting war with the Chinese?
Poland has been either Germany's or Russia's bitch repeatedly throughout history. It has indefensible borders. They'd much rather get some security assurances from someone who hasn't ass-raped them repeatedly.

What do we get? A position on Russia's border. Just to help keep honest people honest. We are acting in our interests here.
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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Batboy2/75 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:25 pm

From George Washington's Farewell address. For over 100 years the USA has ignored this advise.


Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct, and can it be that good policy does not equally enjoin it? It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period a great nation to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that in the course of time and things the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it? Can it be that Providence has not connected the permanent felicity of a nation with its virtue? The experiment, at least, is recommended by every sentiment which ennobles human nature. Alas! Is it rendered possible by its vices?

In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur.

Hence frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation prompted by ill will and resentment sometimes impels to war the government contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject. At other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility, instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations has been the victim.

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils! Such an attachment of a small or weak toward a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter. Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government, but that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combination and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense, but in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest, but even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand, neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the government to support them, conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that by such acceptance it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.
Arms are the only true badge of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of the free man from the slave.

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.


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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Batboy2/75 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:29 pm

nafod wrote:
Batboy2/75 wrote:Let me ask you guys a question; why is Joe Biden in Poland giving reassurances that we will defend the Balkan states and Poland? I mean other than NATO treaty stipulations etc. Why isn't Merkel or Hollande or Cameron giving that speech? Because the big dumb Americans can be trusted to foot the bill when blood and treasure is needed for some senseless European land squabble going back centuries.

Do you guys really believe any of our NATO allies would come running to help if we got into a shooting war with the Chinese?
Poland has been either Germany's or Russia's bitch repeatedly throughout history. It has indefensible borders. They'd much rather get some security assurances from someone who hasn't ass-raped them repeatedly.

What do we get? A position on Russia's border. Just to help keep honest people honest. We are acting in our interests here.
If Poland was armed to the teeth they wouldn't be quaking in their boots calling for American intervention.

Walls and natural barriers are poor substitute for the force of arms and the willingness to defend oneself.

Nor did you answer my other question. IF the USA and China were to go at it the Europeans would be cooling their heels and picking their noses.
Arms are the only true badge of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of the free man from the slave.

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Cave Canem » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:37 pm

Batboy2/75 wrote:Let me ask you guys a question; why is Joe Biden in Poland giving reassurances that we will defend the Baltic states and Poland?
Fixed.

(Unless, of course, Biden actually stepped on his dick and said Balkan when referring to Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia which actually seems highly probable now that I've given it some thought.)
Tantum validus superstes

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:58 pm

Batboy2/75 wrote:If Poland was armed to the teeth they wouldn't be quaking in their boots calling for American intervention.
Of course they would. They're still small, with the population of California and a 1/4 of the GDP. They would lose lopsided defeats to a country 4x larger. The smart move on Poland's part is to form alliances.
Walls and natural barriers are poor substitute for the force of arms and the willingness to defend oneself.
And neither work for Poland. There are larger issues at play than a militarized citizenry and willingness to fight to the death. Japan had that model and it didn't work.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by nafod » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:00 pm

Batboy2/75 wrote:
nafod wrote:
Batboy2/75 wrote:Let me ask you guys a question; why is Joe Biden in Poland giving reassurances that we will defend the Balkan states and Poland? I mean other than NATO treaty stipulations etc. Why isn't Merkel or Hollande or Cameron giving that speech? Because the big dumb Americans can be trusted to foot the bill when blood and treasure is needed for some senseless European land squabble going back centuries.

Do you guys really believe any of our NATO allies would come running to help if we got into a shooting war with the Chinese?
Poland has been either Germany's or Russia's bitch repeatedly throughout history. It has indefensible borders. They'd much rather get some security assurances from someone who hasn't ass-raped them repeatedly.

What do we get? A position on Russia's border. Just to help keep honest people honest. We are acting in our interests here.
If Poland was armed to the teeth they wouldn't be quaking in their boots calling for American intervention.

Walls and natural barriers are poor substitute for the force of arms and the willingness to defend oneself.

Nor did you answer my other question. IF the USA and China were to go at it the Europeans would be cooling their heels and picking their noses.
If Poland was armed to the teeth? They simply don't have as many teeth as either Russia or Germany does. Read your history. Your suggestion that geography and terrain doesn't matter is nuts. Poland has no defensible terrain, and whenever Russia fights with France or Germany, they use Poland as a rest stop on the way to/from Moscow. You write them and tell them they are stupid for using the flat, easily traversed plains for their line of attack.

Yes, NATO would join us if war broke out between us and China.
Don’t believe everything you think.

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:46 pm

I just watched Biden on TV giving a speech in Lithuania. In a nutshell, he forcefully told them that if Putin acts up with them, the United States will respond. Holy shit, he played the respond card already! Gutsy call. Putin's probably in the fetal position in a bunker right now.
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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Bob Wildes » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:53 pm

"Tell A.P. Hill he must come up."

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Batboy2/75 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:09 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Batboy2/75 wrote:If Poland was armed to the teeth they wouldn't be quaking in their boots calling for American intervention.
Of course they would. They're still small, with the population of California and a 1/4 of the GDP. They would lose lopsided defeats to a country 4x larger. The smart move on Poland's part is to form alliances.
Walls and natural barriers are poor substitute for the force of arms and the willingness to defend oneself.
And neither work for Poland. There are larger issues at play than a militarized citizenry and willingness to fight to the death. Japan had that model and it didn't work.
You are a little off on your population count. CA and Poland have almost the same population count.**Never mind*** reread your post. Again see my comments about Finland's Winter war. 20 years after being free of the Russian yoke a bunch of militiamen with almost no armor and artillery, held off the hordes of the USSR.

You are aware that Poland has previously defeated a Russian Army (USSR) within living memory? Also, the Finns, a country much smaller than Poland, was able to not only hold off the USSR, but absolutely humiliated the USSR in the Winter war.

When Poland pulls off a sneak attack on the Russian Federation we can start making Japan comparisons. Also, almost every historian predicted an invasion of the Japanese home islands would have been a one bloody affair. The only reason the USA was willing to do it was out of vengeance and settling the war on our terms. This is a completely different situation.

So unless Putin decides it's worth nuking Poland, the Poles would be in a much better position if they first depended upon their own force of arms. Russia isn't looking to invade Europe. He's looking at intimidating them. Putin is a bully and like all bullies they by and large avoid the hard targets.
Arms are the only true badge of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of the free man from the slave.

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by unknown » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:01 pm

Pony-tailed Xenophobic Ukrainian Svoboda MP Igor Miroshnichenko with the help of party ideologist Andrey Ilyenko yelled, abused and beat interim head of Ukraine's National TV Aleksandr Panteleymonov, accusing the channel of being 'anti-Ukrainian' and bullying the executive - whose 'I'm Ukrainian!' claims were met with 'You are sh*t!' - into writing a resignation letter. The MP claims to represent the new Freedom and Information committee of Ukraine.


good work :)

whenever and wherever the democracy is brought somewhere,there are always right wing persons.
the population listens the patriotic speeches and talks about flags while they are getting poor.
where is ukraininian gold right now? in new york. why?

believe me. anybody entering in europe hoping to live normal middle cass life is deceiving themself.
the europe offers democracy, a pat on the back and steals everything.
they dont bring food or better life.
the ukrainians choose the fairytail over russian money.
by the way they will have to return the money borrowed from russia and pay full price gas money.
with what?
eurofaggot

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Batboy2/75 » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:44 pm

nafod wrote:
Batboy2/75 wrote:
nafod wrote:
Batboy2/75 wrote:Let me ask you guys a question; why is Joe Biden in Poland giving reassurances that we will defend the Balkan states and Poland? I mean other than NATO treaty stipulations etc. Why isn't Merkel or Hollande or Cameron giving that speech? Because the big dumb Americans can be trusted to foot the bill when blood and treasure is needed for some senseless European land squabble going back centuries.

Do you guys really believe any of our NATO allies would come running to help if we got into a shooting war with the Chinese?
Poland has been either Germany's or Russia's bitch repeatedly throughout history. It has indefensible borders. They'd much rather get some security assurances from someone who hasn't ass-raped them repeatedly.

What do we get? A position on Russia's border. Just to help keep honest people honest. We are acting in our interests here.
If Poland was armed to the teeth they wouldn't be quaking in their boots calling for American intervention.

Walls and natural barriers are poor substitute for the force of arms and the willingness to defend oneself.

Nor did you answer my other question. IF the USA and China were to go at it the Europeans would be cooling their heels and picking their noses.
If Poland was armed to the teeth? They simply don't have as many teeth as either Russia or Germany does. Read your history. Your suggestion that geography and terrain doesn't matter is nuts. Poland has no defensible terrain, and whenever Russia fights with France or Germany, they use Poland as a rest stop on the way to/from Moscow. You write them and tell them they are stupid for using the flat, easily traversed plains for their line of attack.

Yes, NATO would join us if war broke out between us and China.
You need to bone up on your history before 1800. At one time, Poland (via Poland and Lithuania Commonwealth) was a power house nation.

Your high as shit if you think the Europeans would come to our aid. With what and on what? Not one single European nation can project power across the globe without US help. Other than England, Australia, New Zealand and a handful of smaller countries, who helped us Afghanistan? Other than token forces, what did Germany and France do? Not a damn thing.

Europe is France and Germany, they dominate the continent and their interests are not our interests. I say fuck them and leave them to the tender mercies of Ivan.
Arms are the only true badge of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of the free man from the slave.

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.


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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by unknown » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:16 pm

Pony-tailed Xenophobic Ukrainian Svoboda MP Igor Miroshnichenko with the help of party ideologist Andrey Ilyenko yelled, abused and beat interim head of Ukraine's National TV Aleksandr Panteleymonov, accusing the channel of being 'anti-Ukrainian' and bullying the executive - whose 'I'm Ukrainian!' claims were met with 'You are sh*t!' - into writing a resignation letter. The MP claims to represent the new Freedom and Information committee of Ukraine.


](*,)
eurofaggot

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Wild Bill » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:47 pm

unknown wrote:Pony-tailed Xenophobic Ukrainian Svoboda MP Igor Miroshnichenko with the help of party ideologist Andrey Ilyenko yelled, abused and beat interim head of Ukraine's National TV Aleksandr Panteleymonov, accusing the channel of being 'anti-Ukrainian' and bullying the executive - whose 'I'm Ukrainian!' claims were met with 'You are sh*t!' - into writing a resignation letter. The MP claims to represent the new Freedom and Information committee of Ukraine.


](*,)
I saw video :)

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Wild Bill » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:53 pm

Thats funny :)))
They started all that shit because Yanukovich refused to sign treaty with EU, and now Yatsenyuk also refusing to sign it :))

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Wild Bill » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:54 pm

Maidan reload =D>

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by unknown » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:06 pm

Wild Bill wrote:Thats funny :)))
They started all that shit because Yanukovich refused to sign treaty with EU, and now Yatsenyuk also refusing to sign it :))

wtf?

explain,please

what do you think
unknown wrote:whenever and wherever the democracy is brought somewhere,there are always right wing persons.
the population listens the patriotic speeches and talks about flags while they are getting poor.
where is ukraininian gold right now? in new york. why?

believe me. anybody entering in europe hoping to live normal middle cass life is deceiving themself.
the europe offers democracy, a pat on the back and steals everything.
they dont bring food or better life.
the ukrainians choose the fairytail over russian money.
by the way they will have to return the money borrowed from russia and pay full price gas money.
with what?
eurofaggot

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Cave Canem » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:31 pm

DrDonkeyLove wrote:I just watched Biden on TV giving a speech in Lithuania. In a nutshell, he forcefully told them that if Putin acts up with them, the United States will respond. Holy shit, he played the respond card already! Gutsy call. Putin's probably in the fetal position in a bunker right now.
But did he mention a "red line"? There is no threat without a red line.
Tantum validus superstes

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Wild Bill » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:43 pm

unknown wrote:wtf?

explain,please
legitimate president Yanukovich refused to sign assotiation agreement with EU, because it was catastrophy to Ukrainian industry.
After that started maidan. Because most of Ukraineans didn't even know that this is not membership but only assotiation agreement i think.
They dreamed that they will have possibility travel and work freely in EU.

But anyway, Yanukovich refused, EU fumed with rage and supported maidan, and in the end throw away legitimate power. Now there anarchy of some sort.

Now.
EU again wants Ukraine to sign that assotiation agreement (what for they were paid after all!!). But it seems new goverment have read that agreement at last =D>

And they canceling for a while signing it because "it will be risky for Ukrainean industry"!!! =D>
The same reason why Yanukovich refused to sign.
The same reason why EU started putch in Ukraine =D>

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Wild Bill » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:46 pm

unknown wrote:what do you think
what can i think :) i agree.
NATO just need new bases near Russian border. All talkings about EU assotiation its just rethoric.
Ukraine just pawn in geopolitical game.

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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by DARTH » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:52 pm

Fucking stupid!

The irony that a fucking dick face who never served in the fucking Boy Scouts (well, we know he trolled for the cock.) who ran on "No More Wars Of Choice!" used our power to put Jawa shit heads in power in Libya, wanted or forces to fight alongside Al-Quaeda in Syria and all but sucked the shit off of Vlad's dick after gleefully bending over for him (by axing the anti missile ring in Poland) is now getting tough with Vlad about a fucking place the Russians have just about always owned or ruled by proxy.

This is just rich as we probably have about zero hope of doing anything other than getting a lot of our guys killed.

This is the kind of dumb shit that starts major wars and yes kids Total Wars, the last one, there were no nukes until the very end, this will be different.

Damn, if I still believed in the Nostraldamus shit like I did not when I was a kid, I'd be real scared.

Hmmm, Russians, who do bizz with Ragheads that are going nuclear and now we are poking them when they are exercising what for them is a better move than just sitting back and see what Sorros funded fuck tards in Kiev are going to do, and making them go from people we can do business with to enemies again.

Who would have though the American President would be a fucking Commie shit bag and reignite the Cold War with a Russian who admits what a fuck up communism was and is risjing a hot war.

I hope someone makes him good soon, for all out fucking sake.




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Re: Russia and Ukraine

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:02 pm

The key is to streamline Ukraine's immediate entry into NATO. Then we can see what is really up.
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