So... that torture report

[Blaidd Drwg]

Which?

Total war or repugnancy?

The former is enumerated above. The later is based on exposure to actual mainstream Egyptian and Saudi muslims. Any culture that stands proudly on ideas of non consent, and anti rational fundamentalist claptrap is a scourge to the rest of trying to just live our lives like adults. Spend one evening listening to an educated Egyptian defend institutional pederasty and you'll be ready to snuff the entire region with a nuclear pillow. Do I think they need to be exterminated? Not really..they aren't that big a threat. Contain their disease and feed their young people a steady diet of porn, 90210 re-runs and old school hip hop. They'll fold up in no time.

[Turdacious]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That, of course, was for the general public. Those of us who are above the average know how to tweak it to make it fork for the better good.

You do realize that there's more than one sentence in the Declaration of Independence, don't you? The rest of them are important too.

It doesn't matter.

I hope you don't read like this in your professional life.

The last two sentences of the Declaration are the most important ones.

I disagree. I think the one I quoted is more important one.

Putting your life on the line is more important than sentiment.

[OCG]

Contain their disease and feed their young people a steady diet of porn, 90210 re-runs and old school hip hop. They'll fold up in no time.

That. These people have mobile phones and internet, they know what the west is like, and they want it. When enough of them have grown up with the internet knowing what the west is like and how much better it is, things will change.

[Kenny X]

Which?

Total war or repugnancy?

The former is enumerated above. The later is based on exposure to actual mainstream Egyptian and Saudi muslims. Any culture that stands proudly on ideas of non consent, and anti rational fundamentalist claptrap is a scourge to the rest of trying to just live our lives like adults. Spend one evening listening to an educated Egyptian defend institutional pederasty and you'll be ready to snuff the entire region with a nuclear pillow. Do I think they need to be exterminated? Not really..they aren't that big a threat. Contain their disease and feed their young people a steady diet of porn, 90210 re-runs and old school hip hop. They'll fold up in no time.

They aren't *necessarily* a threat to us, we could bomb them back to the Stone Age if a good Republican was in office and he had the balls to press the button.

But in the Near East, and Asia, in places where life is cheap and governments are unstable- like Myanmar, the encroachment of Extremist Islam is a very real threat, and a problem. And the scourge ought to be wiped out.

Extremist Islamists are a cancer. And just because the West are strong cells, which they cannot infect and destroy *now*, doesn't mean there aren't other, weaker cells across the globe for that cancer to infect.

I say Destroy Them All, for the sake of the rest of the World at-large.

[TerryB]

Contain their disease and feed their young people a steady diet of porn, 90210 re-runs and old school hip hop. They'll fold up in no time.

That. These people have mobile phones and internet, they know what the west is like, and they want it. When enough of them have grown up with the internet knowing what the west is like and how much better it is, things will change.

I'm not so sure. The 9/11 lunatics submerged themselves in strip clubs and modern American culture and still went on their mission. Osama was found with a large stash of western porn. And the average age of your ISIS fighter is probably mid-20s? They know the West and what it offers, and they enjoy it. But they still want to kill and subjugate.

Hypocrisy wins.

[nafod]

Contain their disease and feed their young people a steady diet of porn, 90210 re-runs and old school hip hop. They'll fold up in no time.

That. These people have mobile phones and internet, they know what the west is like, and they want it. When enough of them have grown up with the internet knowing what the west is like and how much better it is, things will change.

I'm not so sure. The 9/11 lunatics submerged themselves in strip clubs and modern American culture and still went on their mission. Osama was found with a large stash of western porn. And the average age of your ISIS fighter is probably mid-20s? They know the West and what it offers, and they enjoy it. But they still want to kill and subjugate.

Hypocrisy wins.

The west is an overwhelming environment. Too many shiny moral baubles. I think as much as anything, the disaffected youth want certitude and freedom from choice. You can see this in muslim families that have come over and been completely assimilated into Ozzie and Harriet, but then their kids go jihad on them.

[DrDonkeyLove]

Contain their disease and feed their young people a steady diet of porn, 90210 re-runs and old school hip hop. They'll fold up in no time.

That. These people have mobile phones and internet, they know what the west is like, and they want it. When enough of them have grown up with the internet knowing what the west is like and how much better it is, things will change.

I'm not so sure. The 9/11 lunatics submerged themselves in strip clubs and modern American culture and still went on their mission. Osama was found with a large stash of western porn. And the average age of your ISIS fighter is probably mid-20s? They know the West and what it offers, and they enjoy it. But they still want to kill and subjugate.

Hypocrisy wins.

The west is an overwhelming environment. Too many shiny moral baubles. I think as much as anything, the disaffected youth want certitude and freedom from choice. You can see this in muslim families that have come over and been completely assimilated into Ozzie and Harriet, but then their kids go jihad on them.

Hmmmm, maybe jihad is an emotionally safe cocoon. Most young people are uncertain and confused, young Muslims perhaps more than most. It gets them out of our complex system and they get to rub shoulders with Allah's in crowd while becoming a Mohammad approved higher level of person. I can see the attraction on that level.

[powerlifter54]

PL54,
First, a thank you....it's beyond amusing to listen to you hold that their culture is morally inferior ergo we can feel comfortable with torture because we ourselves, are morally superior.

A morally superior culture wouldn't make battlefield exigencies national policy.


Before you sound off your blowhorn, please remember I agree that their culture is repugnant and anti-rational...and that I think a strong argument can be made for totalwar...it's just not one WE can make without coring the center out of our ideals.

BD,

First pouring water up their nose and making them listen to bad hip hop is no more torture than BET spring break. Cultural discussions of equivalency are the benefits of a comfortable distance from the fray. We as a Nation need to prevail, and waterboarding or drone strikes or total destruction of any one of several stans are all warranted, but who is going to do it?

The handwringing of people like you does nothing but aleve some personal guilt. But the truth is the Jihadists do not care whether we as a Nation or individuals are like you or like me.

We prevail or they do.

[Fat Cat]

My ideals are totally in line with TOTALWARTM. Thank you for your concern.

[Fat Cat]

[Sangoma]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That, of course, was for the general public. Those of us who are above the average know how to tweak it to make it fork for the better good.

You do realize that there's more than one sentence in the Declaration of Independence, don't you? The rest of them are important too.

It doesn't matter.

I hope you don't read like this in your professional life.

The last two sentences of the Declaration are the most important ones.

I disagree. I think the one I quoted is more important one.

Putting your life on the line is more important than sentiment.

That's true. Why it has to be life on the line though is something that keeps amusing me every time. But I am not going to waste my time debating this.

[Turdacious]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That, of course, was for the general public. Those of us who are above the average know how to tweak it to make it fork for the better good.

You do realize that there's more than one sentence in the Declaration of Independence, don't you? The rest of them are important too.

It doesn't matter.

I hope you don't read like this in your professional life.

The last two sentences of the Declaration are the most important ones.

I disagree. I think the one I quoted is more important one.

Putting your life on the line is more important than sentiment.

That's true. Why it has to be life on the line though is something that keeps amusing me every time. But I am not going to waste my time debating this.

Debate what? That's exactly what they did when they signed their names. You do realize they wrote it during wartime right?

[Blaidd Drwg]

PL54,
First, a thank you....it's beyond amusing to listen to you hold that their culture is morally inferior ergo we can feel comfortable with torture because we ourselves, are morally superior.

A morally superior culture wouldn't make battlefield exigencies national policy.


Before you sound off your blowhorn, please remember I agree that their culture is repugnant and anti-rational...and that I think a strong argument can be made for totalwar...it's just not one WE can make without coring the center out of our ideals.

BD,

First pouring water up their nose and making them listen to bad hip hop is no more torture than BET spring break. Cultural discussions of equivalency are the benefits of a comfortable distance from the fray. We as a Nation need to prevail, and waterboarding or drone strikes or total destruction of any one of several stans are all warranted, but who is going to do it?

The handwringing of people like you does nothing but aleve some personal guilt. But the truth is the Jihadists do not care whether we as a Nation or individuals are like you or like me.

We prevail or they do.

Thing one. Don't be a fucking retard. Use that "you people" rhetoric on some shitheel hannity message board ...no here.


Thing two....read the report....read the god damn report. No one here is hand wringing about a little water up the nose. Waterboarding is the least of the issues in play.

Your black and white world view is as fragile as it is stupid. Your vacation bible school summary of the situation flies in the face of everything people like Turd are arguing For in this thread. The he's arguments in your favor are that the situation is complex and requires secrecy and complicated tools. That will stand you n much better stead than this " Uhmurka agin the world" crap

[Blaidd Drwg]

PL54,
First, a thank you....it's beyond amusing to listen to you hold that their culture is morally inferior ergo we can feel comfortable with torture because we ourselves, are morally superior.

A morally superior culture wouldn't make battlefield exigencies national policy.


Before you sound off your blowhorn, please remember I agree that their culture is repugnant and anti-rational...and that I think a strong argument can be made for totalwar...it's just not one WE can make without coring the center out of our ideals.

BD,

First pouring water up their nose and making them listen to bad hip hop is no more torture than BET spring break. Cultural discussions of equivalency are the benefits of a comfortable distance from the fray. We as a Nation need to prevail, and waterboarding or drone strikes or total destruction of any one of several stans are all warranted, but who is going to do it?

The handwringing of people like you does nothing but aleve some personal guilt. But the truth is the Jihadists do not care whether we as a Nation or individuals are like you or like me.

We prevail or they do.

Thing one. Don't be a fucking retard. Use that "you people" rhetoric on some shitheel hannity message board ...no here.


Thing two....read the report....read the god damn report. No one here is hand wringing about a little water up the nose. Waterboarding is the least of the issues in play. Seriously, it's flat niggardly to argue this shot while you have only a modest clue as the the subject....oh right...IGX

Your black and white world view is as fragile as it is stupid. Your vacation bible school summary of the situation flies in the face of everything people like Turd are arguing For in this thread. The best arguments in your favor are that the situation is complex and requires secrecy and complicated tools. That will stand you in much better stead than this " Uhmurka agin the world" crap

[johno]

1 - "Read the report." You realize this was a highly political document, drafted solely by Democrats? That the Chair of the Committee, Feinstein, had much face to save by finding that she wasn't adequately briefed when she repeatedly green lighted the harsh measures she now calls "torture"? That many key players weren't interviewed for the report, and that CIA directors (under both Republican & Democrat Presidents) emphatically reject its conclusions?

2 - The Cheap Wisdom available only with 20/20 Hindsight: Just as the know-it-alls piled on the CIA for not "connecting the dots" prior to the 9/11 Attacks, the Monday Morning Quarterbacks minimize the risk that the administration, CIA, and military feared we faced. They look back from thirteen years of safety with arrogant smugness.

3 - Recently I heard an official (wish I could remember who) say, facing possible further attacks, possibly Chem/Bio or a Dirty Bomb, that could bring our nation to its knees, the CIA was tasked to do everything within the law to stop the plots, as soon as possible. You can quibble with where the Bush Administration drew the legal line, but wouldn't you do everything legal to stop the damage?

[powerlifter54]

PL54,
First, a thank you....it's beyond amusing to listen to you hold that their culture is morally inferior ergo we can feel comfortable with torture because we ourselves, are morally superior.

A morally superior culture wouldn't make battlefield exigencies national policy.


Before you sound off your blowhorn, please remember I agree that their culture is repugnant and anti-rational...and that I think a strong argument can be made for totalwar...it's just not one WE can make without coring the center out of our ideals.

BD,

First pouring water up their nose and making them listen to bad hip hop is no more torture than BET spring break. Cultural discussions of equivalency are the benefits of a comfortable distance from the fray. We as a Nation need to prevail, and waterboarding or drone strikes or total destruction of any one of several stans are all warranted, but who is going to do it?

The handwringing of people like you does nothing but aleve some personal guilt. But the truth is the Jihadists do not care whether we as a Nation or individuals are like you or like me.

We prevail or they do.

Thing one. Don't be a fucking retard. Use that "you people" rhetoric on some shitheel hannity message board ...no here.


Thing two....read the report....read the god damn report. No one here is hand wringing about a little water up the nose. Waterboarding is the least of the issues in play. Seriously, it's flat niggardly to argue this shot while you have only a modest clue as the the subject....oh right...IGX

Your black and white world view is as fragile as it is stupid. Your vacation bible school summary of the situation flies in the face of everything people like Turd are arguing For in this thread. The best arguments in your favor are that the situation is complex and requires secrecy and complicated tools. That will stand you in much better stead than this " Uhmurka agin the world" crap

BD,

You might need to light up and chill. Maybe some Smooth Jazz. You generally can express yourself without insult and while i laugh at your distress over this, you confuse complexity with complications of dealing with the Jihadists. My views are formed by lots of time over there and interacting with many of the players and non-players. Leave them be in their country but if they export any problems or problem children we smite them mightily. What was your experience living and working over there?

It is not America vs the world, it is Jihadists versus the west. And even that line blurs as you mix in Shia/Suni, ruling class versus non royal family, corruption, and even who is actually our ally and who is not, i.e. Pakistan. One thing all of those groups have in common is they respect force. Not handwringing or diplomacy. They best understand when they are dead.

Thanks for reminding me to read the report. Again. Great reading of spin by the Dem Staffers who fail to acknowledge all of this was briefed to DiFi and company and they cheered it on. We can nit pick it to death but i have no sympathy for those folks event to the extent how they rehydrated them.

We as the West, led by the US because who else can/will, need to prevail or convert to Islam.

Happy New Year.

[Blaidd Drwg]

Both you and Johno are right from central casting on this one.....talking from a script without reading a goddamn thing.

Read the report. Dont give me the regurgitated talking points. Read it. No one even in your news sources has argued it contains falsehoods. Your quibbling about bias when we are talkin about making people stand on broken ankles or killing them with hypothermia or such persistent abusive conditions that we drove others completely insane. Your biased argument that it's a biased doc is null.

If you had read what I wrote you'd know I have zero respect for any sect of Islam so your personal flag waiving is once again unwarranted and not useful. We aren't talking about broad US policy on all thing camel jockey we are talking about how we decide as national policy to conduct ourselves. Both you and Johno utterly miss the point, policy decisions we make in this current blip will stay with us long past this blip. So all the bleeding about what did the CIA know when and wouldn't you all have done blather is utterly off point. So fucking what? It's not Monday morning quarterbacking to look at your history and reflect .....hmmmm that was some fucked up shit, perhaps we as a nation are not quite up to the task of total war. Least of all folks who have been over there doing it.

If there's a telling thread through all of this it's how fucking hard it is to find the intelligence officers who can easily perform the full range of acts you all seem so proud of. Everybody wants to get medieval, don't nobody want to actually get medieval.

[Turdacious]

If there's a telling thread through all of this it's how fucking hard it is to find the intelligence officers who can easily perform the full range of acts you all seem so proud of. Everybody wants to get medieval, don't nobody want to actually get medieval.

You read it, and the other evidence, differently than I did. Developing the intelligence personnel and necessary infrastructure is difficult, and very difficult to ramp up quickly, especially when it involves a moving target. The report is still not a complete document.

If your argument is that we shouldn't torture because it's not effective and the benefits never outweigh the costs, that's one thing. If your argument is that we did not implemented the program as well as we should have, that it had insufficient oversight, and that the successes were accompanied by a lot of failures, that's another. I tend to agree with the latter; I suspect that most intel pros would privately agree. How to do it better is a difficult problem to solve-- intel work generally involves educated guesses with incomplete info. I don't see how taking an effective, although imperfectly applied, tool off the table helps our security. We still face the same Quiet American problems we have for 60 years.

The other thing we disagree on is the definition of medieval. I see an enhanced interrogation program that minimized physical damage as non-medieval. I don't see it as a 'kill em' all, let God sort em' out' kind of program. If the subjects of enhanced interrogation can go back home and lead productive lives (as productive as their society allows anyway), that doesn't mean medieval to me. There's a difference between a bunker busting bomb that minimizes damage to surrounding buildings and sustained firebombing (ala Dresden).

[Blaidd Drwg]

My argument is probably a bit of both to be fair....I rarely see bright lines but this argument has convinced me, like with the death penalty...we get it so catastrophically wrong and we so consistently are unable culturally to process the reality of our actions that as a country, we should be able to say, we do not torture...nor should we do so by proxy (extraordinary rendition etc).

If the subjects of enhanced interrogation can go back home and lead productive lives (as productive as their society allows anyway), that doesn't mean medieval to me.

I read this and thought....that's too simplistic. Upon re-reading, I think you nailed it. If this were true, I don't think you'd find a single person on either side of the policy argument who would argue against Enhanced Interrogation.

As it sits, the summary memo tells me we have a hard time sending the interrogators home undamaged. Maybe we can do better with better oversight....your more accurate firebombing etc. The response will be of course, quit tying our hands, you cant handle the truth, you people dont know what it s really like...which is the call of every single motherfucker who's involved in the active fight, that upon historical reflection we think...holy shit. we went a little nuts there didn't we?...holy shit, we were legislating while drunk on war.. So many people in this thread want to drag it back to some ridiculous exigency argument based on the current police action. That's incredibly shortsighted. I'm not accusing you of this.

Given the players involved (NSA/CIA) and their resistance to oversight that ranges form pragmatic to pathological, and the utterly brilliant (and I do mean brilliant) way that those agencies have played the pawns on both sides of the aisle (don't you just wish our aisle had more than two sides) I have very little faith we'd arrive where you are pointing.

Make no mistake. I cannot fucking stand most of mainstream Islam let alone the fringe elements we're currently wound up over....this policy discussion is not about them, it's about us. It's about what we do in the next police action and the next police action and the one that follows that. Global Jihad is clearly an idea who's time has come and it will go...largely based on outside forces, not us. The war on Terrorism is just as foolish as all the other wars on IdeaX. You cannot kill ideas without killing all the people who hold that idea.

[johno]

Read the report.

You said that already. And refuse to acknowledge that the report is partisan, incomplete, and disputed by CIA Chiefs on both sides of the aisle.

For all the fun you poke at bible-bashers, you're thumping pretty hard on The Report.


Here: http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/stud ... study3.pdf

You read the report.

[Blaidd Drwg]

Read the report.

You said that already. And refuse to acknowledge that the report is partisan, incomplete, and disputed by CIA Chiefs on both sides of the aisle.

For all the fun you poke at bible-bashers, you're thumping pretty hard on The Report.


Here: http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/stud ... study3.pdf

You read the report.

I did. It's biased for sure. I knew it was biased when I read it. But I've read the Bible (I skipped Numbers) as well so know how to screen shit for the corn.

If we're going to thump our credentials around, I've written biased reports and briefing memos. (hint...they all are) I'll say, it's really quite good in that it does something you always strive to do when you're writing a persuasive doc that everyone knows is coming out slanted. Stick strongly to the facts that are known, go light on the analysis as much as possible.

The retort from the other side of the argument you linked is a bit crippled...they can't really tell you how well it EI works...(that's classified)...and they can't explain the value of it without a whole lot of analysis that is plays very biased. Again...the bias is not between red and blue it's bias by agencies who want to operate outside the rules as much as possible and legislators who want their hands in places they have no business. This is a perpetually asymmetrical relationship depending on whether that discussion takes place in public or in private. The rebuttal is weak, long on analysis and where are the solutions (that's not the point) it's best where it stick to the handfuls of individual successes without beign able to directly attribute the success to EI or without comparison to successes using other methods. Success with broken ankles vs waterboading, success with extraordinary rendition vs. the slow and low approach..

Given the high quality of legal education in this country, congressional staffers on this one did a pretty rocking job. Yeah...it's biased as fuck because above all it's an ass covering doc for those who are seeking control and oversight of agencies who want less control and less oversight. Duh.

I'm not a massive fan of big government...that's my bias. I have the decency to apply it universally.

[Turdacious]

As it sits, the summary memo tells me we have a hard time sending the interrogators home undamaged. Maybe we can do better with better oversight....your more accurate firebombing etc. The response will be of course, quit tying our hands, you cant handle the truth, you people dont know what it s really like...which is the call of every single motherfucker who's involved in the active fight, that upon historical reflection we think...holy shit. we went a little nuts there didn't we?...holy shit, we were legislating while drunk on war.. So many people in this thread want to drag it back to some ridiculous exigency argument based on the current police action. That's incredibly shortsighted. I'm not accusing you of this.

Anyone who goes to war and does shit/sees shit comes back damaged to some degree. It's something you have to deal with; some people need help dealing with it. The same thing is true for Peace Corps and development types. We're better at getting people help than we used to be, but I've seen quite a few get told to 'harden the fuck up' by people who sat comfortably in an office. I think a big question is 'will there be other wars/police actions in the future?' I am guessing that there will be, so a longer term view is absolutely necessary. I'm also guessing that they won't be in the same places as the last police actions.

Make no mistake. I cannot fucking stand most of mainstream Islam let alone the fringe elements we're currently wound up over....this policy discussion is not about them, it's about us. It's about what we do in the next police action and the next police action and the one that follows that. Global Jihad is clearly an idea who's time has come and it will go...largely based on outside forces, not us. The war on Terrorism is just as foolish as all the other wars on IdeaX. You cannot kill ideas without killing all the people who hold that idea.

Again, this is an area where we disagree. Ideas don't stay static, and neither do the people who hold them. Examples would include the Klan, Fascism, and Communism. Different aspects of each idea have sway at different times; today's Communists would not be claimed by the Communists of the 1940s. The Klan is no longer an aristocratic Southern movement.

Most Muslims, in my experience, are thoroughly decent people who want better lives for themselves and their kids. They just happen to live in fucked up countries. Most of them believe in Jihad, but it's an internal Jihad, not a global one; it's about trying to be a better person. I can't disagree with that.

[Blaidd Drwg]

Setting aside the Muslim question....I just don't like the culture slant of nearly all Muslims I have met when you get down to brass tack.s but thats' neither here nor there.

Wait....you think we CAN win a war against an idea?

War on Drugs
War on Poverty
War on Terror

or are you equating a change in ideology with somehow winning the struggle..e.g. through diligent firebombing we convinced the German people to give up national socialism as an idea?

[Turdacious]

Political histrionics aside, I think that certain ideas, and the people who hold them, have become so mild that they're no longer an existential threat.

[Blaidd Drwg]

Chill your Godwin.

Using the backdrop of WW2 is perfectly reasonable....plus I gave you a softball, WW2 Germany is probably one of the only times in recent memory where the crushing defeat of a country led to a wholesale rethinking of their national identity in a lasting way.

Ideas fall in an out of favor, almost never based on force or threats of force. The fact no one is ready to embrace is that ACTUAL the threat posed by wahabi nutbirds is not even a blip compared to our past conflicts. I'd put their chances at long term success right around the same as the Amish. In 50 years theses dune coons will be a tourist attraction....regardless of our World Police efforts.