Travel ban cockup

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Turdacious
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Turdacious » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:53 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:http://thehill.com/policy/national-secu ... travel-ban
the order represents a major departure from what came before.

The policy will not take effect until March 16, rather than immediately; it spells out clearly that green-card holders are not affected; and it provides a lengthy list of travelers who could be provided a waiver to come to the U.S., including students and children seeking medical treatment.

The narrowed policy drew praise from Republicans, including Sen. Lindsey Graham (S.C.), a frequent Trump critic. He said the new order would both “pass legal muster” and “help achieve President Trump’s goal of making us safer.”
Translation-- it's similar to what we saw during the last administration, just Trumptasticer.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by TerryB » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:03 am

climber511 wrote:Who here actually feels "unsafe"?
Is that the standard? Until some people, the majority of people, EVERY person (??) feels unsafe, we carry on with business as usual?

The people at the Pulse nightclub felt perfectly safe until they weren't. The people on the Ivory Coast beach felt perfectly safe until they weren't.

Now, those are examples of people shot to death by crazy Islamists.

Compare and contrast with the other group feeling very unsafe lately....the leftist wackos who feel "unsafe" when someone they don't like takes over the EPA or someone uses the wrong pronoun.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:30 pm

Turdacious wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:http://thehill.com/policy/national-secu ... travel-ban
the order represents a major departure from what came before.

The policy will not take effect until March 16, rather than immediately; it spells out clearly that green-card holders are not affected; and it provides a lengthy list of travelers who could be provided a waiver to come to the U.S., including students and children seeking medical treatment.

The narrowed policy drew praise from Republicans, including Sen. Lindsey Graham (S.C.), a frequent Trump critic. He said the new order would both “pass legal muster” and “help achieve President Trump’s goal of making us safer.”
Translation-- it's similar to what we saw during the last administration, just Trumptasticer.
Precisely...and with the added benefit of most likely being legal.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by dead man walking » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:07 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote: Translation-- it's similar to what we saw during the last administration, just Trumptasticer.
Precisely...and with the added benefit of most likely being legal.
and possibly harmful to communities that supported le grand orange, i.e. xenophobia biting the xenophobes
Hospitals and other medical facilities in some of the neediest parts of the U.S. say the Trump administration's decision to temporarily halt expedited processing of H-1B visas will leave them struggling to hire the doctors they desperately need.
The government said last week that it will temporarily suspend 15-day "premium processing" of H-1B visas, which are issued to highly skilled foreign workers. . . . That poses a problem for at least 1,500 foreign medical residents who have been selected to stay in the country after graduation this summer and work in some of America's most underserved communities. . . .
"In states like Oklahoma, foreign physicians are being brought in through the Conrad 30 J-1 visa waiver and other programs because there is a very high need for them," said Jana Castleberry . . . with Oklahoma's Department of Health
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Turdacious » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:54 am

dead man walking wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote: Translation-- it's similar to what we saw during the last administration, just Trumptasticer.
Precisely...and with the added benefit of most likely being legal.
and possibly harmful to communities that supported le grand orange, i.e. xenophobia biting the xenophobes
Hospitals and other medical facilities in some of the neediest parts of the U.S. say the Trump administration's decision to temporarily halt expedited processing of H-1B visas will leave them struggling to hire the doctors they desperately need.
The government said last week that it will temporarily suspend 15-day "premium processing" of H-1B visas, which are issued to highly skilled foreign workers. . . . That poses a problem for at least 1,500 foreign medical residents who have been selected to stay in the country after graduation this summer and work in some of America's most underserved communities. . . .
"In states like Oklahoma, foreign physicians are being brought in through the Conrad 30 J-1 visa waiver and other programs because there is a very high need for them," said Jana Castleberry . . . with Oklahoma's Department of Health
.
Not trying to make an 'Obama did it too' argument here, but this isn't that much of a departure from the last administration. This from NOV2016:
President Barack Obama is on track to impose a last-minute regulation which would help foreign graduates capture good jobs at American companies, universities and hospitals that are sought by American-born graduates. Obama’s expansion of the H-1B outsourcing program would take effect just three days before he leaves the White House. It can be seen as a direct challenge to incoming President Donald Trump, who promised to reform the H-1B program.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... b-program/
I know, it's Breitbart, but last minute policies don't really get you big brownie points.

From late 2015:
U.S. President Barack Obama on Saturday signed into law a USD 1.8 trillion spending package which among other things introduces a hefty USD 4,000 fee for certain categories of H-1B visa and USD 4,500 for L1 visa.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 007990.ece

FWIW, I am both in favor of importing skilled medical professionals and in favor of heavily subsidizing tuition for all Americans in domestic MD programs without condition.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by dead man walking » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:26 am

Turdacious wrote:
dead man walking wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote: Translation-- it's similar to what we saw during the last administration, just Trumptasticer.
Precisely...and with the added benefit of most likely being legal.
and possibly harmful to communities that supported le grand orange, i.e. xenophobia biting the xenophobes
Hospitals and other medical facilities in some of the neediest parts of the U.S. say the Trump administration's decision to temporarily halt expedited processing of H-1B visas will leave them struggling to hire the doctors they desperately need.
The government said last week that it will temporarily suspend 15-day "premium processing" of H-1B visas, which are issued to highly skilled foreign workers. . . . That poses a problem for at least 1,500 foreign medical residents who have been selected to stay in the country after graduation this summer and work in some of America's most underserved communities. . . .
"In states like Oklahoma, foreign physicians are being brought in through the Conrad 30 J-1 visa waiver and other programs because there is a very high need for them," said Jana Castleberry . . . with Oklahoma's Department of Health
.
Not trying to make an 'Obama did it too' argument here, but this isn't that much of a departure from the last administration. This from NOV2016:
President Barack Obama is on track to impose a last-minute regulation which would help foreign graduates capture good jobs at American companies, universities and hospitals that are sought by American-born graduates. Obama’s expansion of the H-1B outsourcing program would take effect just three days before he leaves the White House. It can be seen as a direct challenge to incoming President Donald Trump, who promised to reform the H-1B program.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... b-program/
I know, it's Breitbart, but last minute policies don't really get you big brownie points.

From late 2015:
U.S. President Barack Obama on Saturday signed into law a USD 1.8 trillion spending package which among other things introduces a hefty USD 4,000 fee for certain categories of H-1B visa and USD 4,500 for L1 visa.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 007990.ece

FWIW, I am both in favor of importing skilled medical professionals and in favor of heavily subsidizing tuition for all Americans in domestic MD programs without condition.
that's instructive in some depressing and futility-inspiring way
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Herv100 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:06 am

So Trump took the court's critiques and made modifications to the policy? How authoritarian and downright tyrannical!
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by nafod » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:27 pm

Trump got bitch-slapped by the system the Founding Fathers put into place. NDAs and impersonating your own media rep will only get you so far.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Herv100 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:33 pm

At least he didn't fight it to the Supreme Court and get rejected like some losers I know
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by johno » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:47 pm

This is a mini-tempest in a mini-teacup. Almost as petty as how many golf games the President plays. Or vacations in Camp David vs. Mara Lago.

Trump could have fought his first "Ban" up to the SC, and probably would have won. Why? Because the Exec has broad powers to protect the country, even if his "Ban" will do very, very little to do so. Basically, Trump is keeping a campaign promise that has little impact in the broad scheme of things, except as to his credibility & competence to get shit done. So he's taking the fast, easy, and sensible route: Rewriting the Ban so that it will (probably) pass muster, even in the 9th Circuit. Boom, done.

Very similar to the Wall. Will the "Wall" be all wall, from border to border? No. And the only people who will bitch about it will be committed Trump critics, people whom Trump could never win over.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by climber511 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:36 pm

Trump's "effectiveness" on this issue calls into play his lack of knowledge in what he can actually do and expect to pass the legal challenges. The first ban was such that already legal to enter people couldn't get back in and most of us never expected it to not be shot down by the courts. Surely some of those around him knew it wouldn't fly. Maybe they didn't tell him the rather obvious issues and perhaps they did and he didn't listen - I don't know. Weather I agree or disagree with the policy doesn't matter - executing it correctly so that it does anything at all to meet the goal is important though. This is a weakness I see in this administration - that and being in way to big a hurry (I'm thinking health care here). I know there are things they want to do quickly but having to go back to redo things isn't quicker - it just makes you look like you don't know what you are doing.

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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:41 pm

climber511 wrote:Trump's "effectiveness" on this issue calls into play his lack of knowledge in what he can actually do and expect to pass the legal challenges. The first ban was such that already legal to enter people couldn't get back in and most of us never expected it to not be shot down by the courts. Surely some of those around him knew it wouldn't fly. Maybe they didn't tell him the rather obvious issues and perhaps they did and he didn't listen - I don't know. Weather I agree or disagree with the policy doesn't matter - executing it correctly so that it does anything at all to meet the goal is important though. This is a weakness I see in this administration - that and being in way to big a hurry (I'm thinking health care here). I know there are things they want to do quickly but having to go back to redo things isn't quicker - it just makes you look like you don't know what you are doing.

Either it was a throw away campaign promise he knew wouldn't fly- demonstrates gross incompetence...(sorry Johno, he didn't stand much of a chance at the SCOTUS, he knew that)

Or he failed to fight for elements he has argued were critical* to keeping Americans' safe...and Trump didn't even have the courage of his convictions to fight them to the final legal authority

So...one might ask..is he incompetent or cowardly? I ask...why not both?
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by dead man walking » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:27 pm

johno wrote:. . . even if his "Ban" will do very, very little to do so. Basically, Trump is keeping a campaign promise that has little impact in the broad scheme of things. . .

Very similar to the Wall. Will the "Wall" be all wall, from border to border? No.. . .
basically you're saying he's a promoter, a bullshitter, which is a mild variation on b.d's conclusion
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Yes I Have Balls » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:14 pm

Nothing material has changed. As Giuliani said, "It's a Muslim ban made to look legal." It still bans people from random countries that haven't committed acts of terrorism in the US. Trump's own spokesman has said "it's essentially samesies." Nothing has been revised to get a court to lift the restraining order. The first order was done quickly due to 'national security' and Trump himself defended that nonsense by claiming if he rolled it out in a week's time "bad guys would pour into the country" and yet THIS ban was announced 10 days in advance.

Stupid people doing stupid things.

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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Turdacious » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:03 am

Yes I Have Balls wrote:Nothing material has changed... Stupid people doing stupid things.
So who is doing stupid things? The POTUS who is doing essentially what the last POTUS did or the people who are claiming the sky is falling?
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by dead man walking » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:17 am

Turdacious wrote: The POTUS who is doing essentially what the last POTUS did
not hardly

you know better than to track that dogshit in on your shoes
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:37 am

dead man walking wrote:
Turdacious wrote: The POTUS who is doing essentially what the last POTUS did
not hardly

you know better than to track that dogshit in on your shoes

Substantively though.....it's not terribly different is it?
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by dead man walking » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:08 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
dead man walking wrote:
Turdacious wrote: The POTUS who is doing essentially what the last POTUS did
not hardly

you know better than to track that dogshit in on your shoes

Substantively though.....it's not terribly different is it?
i am thinking broadly here, beyond "muslim travel ban."

clean power plan and auto emissions standards vs fossil fuel's kept man in charge of epa.

obama's health plan vs the new one, which will provide tax breaks to rich folks and eliminate mental health coverage from medicaid (as i understand it), as a couple examples of the differences.

obama of the careful, albeit overlong, explanation vs inarticulate speaker and irresponsible tweeter of spurious facts.

etc.

not hardly the same, i don't think.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Turdacious » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:23 am

Obama presided over the biggest domestic production increase in oil and gas in a quarter century. Despite what Trump has said, we still don't know if higher sulfur coal can compete with natural gas long term. My guess is that power producers aren't betting on long term consistent Republican control of the White House.

Re the Trump health care proposal, he hasn't presented one or signed off on anything. The Republican proposal hasn't even gotten to the Senate yet, and I've seen no indication it has the required votes. To my knowledge he hasn't intervened to significantly modified the current Republican one.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Turdacious » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:25 am

New boss, same as the old boss.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by dead man walking » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:25 pm

they're twins in the same way schwarzenegger and de vito were.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:23 pm

dead man walking wrote:they're twins in the same way schwarzenegger and de vito were.

WRT this particular EO in its refined form, I don;t see a substantive difference. Obviously there are other differences. Obama for all his faults was not a malignant narcissistic shitbag. Despite wheezing to the contrary, Obama was not a traitor. I'm not convinced yet the Donald isn't.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Turdacious » Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:44 pm

IMHO this is the biggest issue right now:
The Trump administration has a personnel problem. Multiple government agencies are in a state of staffing gridlock, with cabinet secretaries having their chosen employees routinely returned by the White House's Office of Personnel Management. Steve Mnuchin at Treasury, Rex Tillerson at State, General Mattis at Defense, it's a problem across the Cabinet.

Why this matters: The failure to fill lower-level staff directly impacts the ability of government to function. Career people are working away, but senior political appointees lack their own staff. They're less effective — and operating in a climate of distrust — until they've got their team around them.

One example: Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke, who was only confirmed a week ago, has already taken his complaints directly to the President. According to a source briefed on the incident, Zinke went to Trump and demanded his staff be approved. Trump replied that Zinke will get his people "as long as they're our people," the source said.
https://www.axios.com/white-house-at-wa ... 08580.html
The fight between the Bannon and Priebus wings of the White House; whether Secretaries have cohesive staffs that enable them to make the changes in bureaucracies that they and the POTUS want to make; and whether the key appointees and the WH staff can gel effectively is the real battle.

So far, the Priebus wing seems to be winning the public battles, but the Bannon wing may be winning the less public ones. This disfunction already cost them Harward.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by dead man walking » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:43 pm

i'm puzzled how tillerson, who ran exxon-mobil, is allowing himself to get dicked around. it seems unlikely he would take the job with the idea that others would determine his key staff. perhaps he's taking a long view and that infighting in the early days is no big deal, but are things working the way he expected?

same with mad dog. he's letting bannon push him around?
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by johno » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:57 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Obama for all his faults was not a malignant narcissistic shitbag.
Obama was a narcissistic Pampered Prince, who resented the US. Traitor might be a stretch.
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Are full of passionate intensity.

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