Travel ban cockup

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Blaidd Drwg
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:47 pm

johno wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:Obama for all his faults was not a malignant narcissistic shitbag.
Obama was a narcissistic Pampered Prince, who resented the US. Traitor might be a stretch.
If you really believe there's a comparison there...well...sir, You might consider deep breathing exercises and a news-fast and some think-binging.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

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powerlifter54
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by powerlifter54 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:59 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
powerlifter54 wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
powerlifter54 wrote:Not on the precedent, not on the law, but on some 3rd party rights sham to protect Starbucks and Udub so they can import people to work for them.

Apparently not a sham after all......

Weird how when you do your homework, things have nuance and complexity.
Open to your insight.

The travel ban issue that the states came out hardest on involved those same due process arguments I raised..specifically..if you have already granted a visa or green card to allow someone in and you summarily deny that, it raises serious questions about due process not just for those holders of those documents but the 3rd party sponsors and beneficiaries of those people's labor.

When Trump's folks went back and revised the order this is the area they reworked specifically to avoid these due process challenges.

I think the rest of the EO had some optic problems (but this is a guy with a comb-over and is a pathological liar...so optics are not high on his list. ) but on balance it is sound and within the current practice of Exec purvue. So the part that stayed I take no issue with. But with those specific areas above, I did think there were real problems from the jump. Apparently Trump's legal team is less bullish and leans towards agreeing that the States could win.
Off the grid the past week. I don't have a substantial issue with the new order or your view. But nobody was held for more than a few hours, and I am suspiscious of any refugee or green card holder from one of those countries, and several others, who choose to travel back to their home country or other areas with entrenched jihad. I think they need to be screened closely. Very closely.

Still bettting the 9th circus will block it. And so the game goes.
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

"But even snake wrestling beats life in the cube, for me at least. In measured doses."-Lex

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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:45 pm

powerlifter54 wrote:Off the grid the past week. I don't have a substantial issue with the new order or your view. But nobody was held for more than a few hours,

My point was not that the net effect of his illegal action was bad....but that it was on its face, badly construed and not supportable. This is why the States opposed it, the Courts blocked it and ultimately the Trump Administration backed off.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/washing ... story.html
powerlifter54 wrote: and I am suspiscious of any refugee or green card holder from one of those countries, and several others, who choose to travel back to their home country or other areas with entrenched jihad. I think they need to be screened closely. Very closely.
You mean countries like the UK? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32026985

Where would Green card holders legitimately go back to? Many are here specifically to benefit their families back home and the Green card process post 9/11 is radically more complicated and involves far more scrutiny than pre 9/11.


http://www.americanbar.org/publications ... olicy.html
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powerlifter54
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by powerlifter54 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:58 pm

Whether they are US born like the San Bernardino Jihadist Farouk or imigrant/refugees like the Boston Jihadast Tsarnaev, if you leave the US to travel to any of those places you need to be rescreened. And monitored if the story doesn't add up.

This is a long war.
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Turdacious » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:10 pm

Most of the immigrants from poor countries go home every three years or so and they go for about a month. Our screening apparatus is not set up for regular re screening.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Testiclaw » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:53 am

So who decides which countries are on the list?

Can a country be removed from the list? What's the process of reviewing the list?
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by dead man walking » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:04 am

powerlifter54 wrote:This is a long war.
it started in 1095

it won't be won with bans, drones, and special operators, however valuable they might be at times.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by johno » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:09 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
johno wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:Obama for all his faults was not a malignant narcissistic shitbag.
Obama was a narcissistic Pampered Prince, who resented the US. Traitor might be a stretch.
If you really believe there's a comparison there...well...sir, You might consider deep breathing exercises and a news-fast and some think-binging.
Just one comparo: Obama campaigns to leave Iraq, then flees Iraq, against all military & State Dept. advice. (And Iraq falls apart.) Trump campaigns to "waterboard & worse" terrorists, then hires Mattis & McMaster and defers to their expert judgement on that subject. So who is the narcissistic, arrogant know-it-all?

Yes, I know it's early. But you're being distracted by the Shiny Things. Maybe a coffee enema and some edamame anal beads will clear your mind.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:49 pm

johno wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
johno wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:Obama for all his faults was not a malignant narcissistic shitbag.
Obama was a narcissistic Pampered Prince, who resented the US. Traitor might be a stretch.
If you really believe there's a comparison there...well...sir, You might consider deep breathing exercises and a news-fast and some think-binging.
Just one comparo: Obama campaigns to leave Iraq, then flees Iraq, against all military & State Dept. advice. (And Iraq falls apart.) Trump campaigns to "waterboard & worse" terrorists, then hires Mattis & McMaster and defers to their expert judgement on that subject. So who is the narcissistic, arrogant know-it-all?

Yes, I know it's early. But you're being distracted by the Shiny Things. Maybe a coffee enema and some edamame anal beads will clear your mind.

You're deeply confused if you find that compelling.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:12 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
johno wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
johno wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:Obama for all his faults was not a malignant narcissistic shitbag.
Obama was a narcissistic Pampered Prince, who resented the US. Traitor might be a stretch.
If you really believe there's a comparison there...well...sir, You might consider deep breathing exercises and a news-fast and some think-binging.
Just one comparo: Obama campaigns to leave Iraq, then flees Iraq, against all military & State Dept. advice. (And Iraq falls apart.) Trump campaigns to "waterboard & worse" terrorists, then hires Mattis & McMaster and defers to their expert judgement on that subject. So who is the narcissistic, arrogant know-it-all?

Yes, I know it's early. But you're being distracted by the Shiny Things. Maybe a coffee enema and some edamame anal beads will clear your mind.
You're deeply confused if you find that compelling.
I think it's possible to have two consecutive presidents who are opposites in demeanor and ideology. Both suburb at stirring tribal passions. Both uber narcissists who were unprepared for the presidency when elected.
Mao wrote:Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party

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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:38 pm

I think that's entirely fair...but BHO has the brand of Narcissistic disorder that is endemic in politics. Trump has the pathology of clearly deranged person. Put it another way, BHO is smart enough to know when he's lying. Trump is well past the point of knowing that there is a difference between truth and falsehood.

Trying to make a reasonable like for like comparison is indicative of someone extremely out of touch with reality. I voted for neither...but I do have a fairly keen insight into things which are obvious.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by The Ginger Beard Man » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:42 pm

dead man walking wrote:
powerlifter54 wrote:This is a long war.
it started in 1095

it won't be won with bans, drones, and special operators, however valuable they might be at times.
You can't possibly be serious with that date.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by dead man walking » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:03 pm

The Ginger Beard Man wrote:
dead man walking wrote:
powerlifter54 wrote:This is a long war.
it started in 1095

it won't be won with bans, drones, and special operators, however valuable they might be at times.
You can't possibly be serious with that date.
first crusade. xtians and muslims have been at it off and on since then
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by The Ginger Beard Man » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:02 am

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/imperial ... tours.html

You're off by more than three centuries.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by The Ginger Beard Man » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:04 am

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_raid_against_Rome

Is this as bad as some random jackass burning a Koran?
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by dead man walking » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:18 am

The Ginger Beard Man wrote:http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/imperial ... tours.html

You're off by more than three centuries.
fair point.

i thought about going back to the muslim invasion, but i kinda like the crusades because dubya referred to the u.s. invasion of iraq as a "crusade," bringing us full circle one millenium after the original and causing much hand-wringing.

in any case, it's a long war likely to be unaffected by a temporary travel ban on a few countries.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by The Ginger Beard Man » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:32 am

dead man walking wrote:
The Ginger Beard Man wrote:http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/imperial ... tours.html

You're off by more than three centuries.
fair point.

i thought about going back to the muslim invasion, but i kinda like the crusades because dubya referred to the u.s. invasion of iraq as a "crusade," bringing us full circle one millenium after the original and causing much hand-wringing.

in any case, it's a long war likely to be unaffected by a temporary travel ban on a few countries.
I agree with you on both the travel ban and W choice of word. But I get tired of the whole "white people started it with the crusades" argument that I see/hear so often.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by dead man walking » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:26 am

The Ginger Beard Man wrote: But I get tired of the whole "white people started it with the crusades" argument that I see/hear so often.
right.

i didn't consider implications of choosing the crusades as a starting point, that is, christians started it.

not my meaning at all, but your note tells me to be more careful.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by johno » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:49 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
johno wrote: Obama campaigns to leave Iraq, then flees Iraq, against all military & State Dept. advice. (And Iraq falls apart.) Trump campaigns to "waterboard & worse" terrorists, then hires Mattis & McMaster and defers to their expert judgement on that subject. So who is the narcissistic, arrogant know-it-all?
You're deeply confused if you find that compelling.
Yeah, well Foreign Policy does bore some people.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:19 am

johno wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
johno wrote: Obama campaigns to leave Iraq, then flees Iraq, against all military & State Dept. advice. (And Iraq falls apart.) Trump campaigns to "waterboard & worse" terrorists, then hires Mattis & McMaster and defers to their expert judgement on that subject. So who is the narcissistic, arrogant know-it-all?
You're deeply confused if you find that compelling.
Yeah, well Foreign Policy does bore some people.

You really should be embarrassed. Of the shit options Obama had he chose Bush2 Electric boogaloo....reasonable minds can differ on how either of them handled that shit sandwich....but then...Trump.

Seriously. Have some dignity, Some shame. Show you're smarter than the cats you're' attempting to herd.
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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:15 am

Iraq revisionism aside, this EO just got blocked, in part because Miller and Trump ran around saying it's basically the same as the last one.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

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Re: Travel ban cockup

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:42 am

Grandpa's Spells wrote:Iraq revisionism aside, this EO just got blocked, in part because Miller and Trump ran around saying it's basically the same as the last one.
It's almost like he wants it to get blocked. Part of a clever Trumpian strategy? Utter incompetence? Both? Neither? Definitely part of the Trump principal of uncertainty which allows one to jump down their favorite rabbit hole with confidence.
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