Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

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Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by terra » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:55 am

If what i'm hearing is true about some states in the U.S. it would seem that tighter controls on what occurs before someone can legally obtain access to firearms and also the types of firearms they can access would be a good idea.

Having said that. Comparing the gun laws from two VERY different cultures and saying that the difference in the incidents of mass shootings/murders in these two cultures is simply down to the gun laws is a FAR from honest assessment.

Sure, things need to change with the guns, but there are other differences to investigate that may reapmore rewards.

Looking to the fact that Australia has increased social nets by way of public healthcare and social welfare. These provide a safety buffer or create a greater threshold that someone must cross before they feel disenfranchised enough with the society around them for their frustration to become malevolent action.

Australia has its own problems, we are not without our glitches. Australian society is generally more laconic, ambivalent. This can give us the "She'll be right Mate" attitude, it can also become an almost un-healthy level of apathy.

Another difference in our societies was polarised whilst listening to a Jordan Peterson lecture.
Peterson spoke about why we tell our children that "it's not whether you win or lose it's how you play the game". Australia is known for and prides itself for it's sense of fair play, giving the other bloke a fair go. Teaching our children that "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game" is actually healthy from an evolutionary point of view.

One year at the Olympics the Australian swim team protested AGAINST the exclusion of the Americans. Even though they new the Americans were their closest rival and would probably beat them. The Aussies helped the U.S. to be allowed to swim. Sure enough the The Duke (U.S. swimmer) took gold and the Aussies silver. Understanding why the Aussies actually won the bigger prize here will go a along way to helping move forward as a culture.

From an evolutionary point of view 'winning the game' in an immediate sense is actually less important than winning the 'meta' game, the overall picture for the tribe. This goes into psycho-physiology and how some of the oldest parts of our brain are hard wired to unsure the healthy selection of species and then tribe. Anyhow, winning the meta-game, really winning it is all about being INVITED to play...

We can see that the U.S. (as a country) has reached a point where it is NOT welcome in the global game. Sorry, but it's true. Most people in Oz have friends in the U.S and we love them, but there is an audible groan whenever we hear our politicians have made another (usually self serving and corrupt) decision to further shackle us to what we see as our tough but retarded big brother. Who wants to turn up to the party with him. Sure he's cool to have around IF on the RARE occasion the shit hits the fan. But almost every single time the shit hits the fan lately, it's because he started it on a gluttonous rampage to steal everyone elses' beer. This also speaks back to the point about social frustrations becoming malevolent thoughts/actions but with regard to the terrorism problem...

But I digress and this isn't to hammer on those who are already feeling the hurt. I personally love my friends in the U.S. and through those friends, I understand that not every one under the stars and stripes has an unhealthy distorted 'win the immediate game at all costs' attitude. But it IS an overriding thing in the U.S. from individual citizen level, corporate level and up through government/foreign policy level. It has become so endemic as to be both a top down AND bottom up vicious cycle.

Winning at all costs means having to carry a bigger gun than the other guy.. It's that simple. Winning at all costs is an escalation mindset.

The U.S. no longer has welcome access to the global meta-game and has to muscle itself in, hence it has to spend most of its resource on, 'muscle' (firearms and weaponry, otherwise deceptively labelled as 'defense'). Whilst this ensures they have access to the game and can even create the illusion that you are controlling it. Because even the most the uncouth (but well armed) friend is suddenly welcome in a world of engineered conflict. As a loong term strategy it is totally against the nature of things and is certainly doomed to failure. Again, increasing the buffer one has to cross before things turn malevolent by decreasing desperation, is THE most effective way to reduce 'terrorism', and the most efficient in terms of resources.

Nature understands that life is a constant struggle for the efficient use of resources. It also understands and enforces a balanced distribution of resources based on effective binding and unbinding of energy throughout the system. When portions of a system bind an unhealthy level of energy the system breaks down.

Please don't hear that as a socialist call for the free distribution of wealth. Not at all, in fact nature follows the pareto distribution where a few have a lot, and that few have ascended the dominance hierarchy to attain it (kind of like a HEALTHY capitalism). But, even apex predators know how to manage the binding and unbinding of energy (and control their own numbers) in the maintenance of the healthy meta system upon which they rely.

What you have now is beyond unnatural.

My professional focus is on the most elegant solution for returning a patient's personal 'ecosystem' to balance by enabling it to revert from what is usually a chronic state of defense to one that allows for the natural creation of health, growth and the successful ascension through Malsow's hierarchy of needs. Doing so through a careful binding and unbinding of resources as we re-establish coherence in the system.

Anyhow. Here's how I see it.

Basic needs...
The U.S. must liberate resources bound up by years of unchecked crony capitalism and redistribute them BACK to a lower level of the food chain in the form of (real) healthcare, housing, food on the table, opportunities for actualisation. This doesn't men socialism or communism, or equal outcomes, it simply means a fair go, getting people out of 'survival'. If the rats who are lower in the dominance hierarchy don't get somewhere around a 30% win rate they stop playing by the rules necessary for a healthy rat population and the system breaks down - that's how it works. The disparity between the haves and have nots is a huge problem in the U.S.
This is why countries with far less 'wealth' scoff every time they hear U.S. citizens talking about the "greatest country".

Becoming, once again, WELCOME on the world stage...
The U.S. has more, ahem 'defense' than it will ever need, even in a fairly unhealthy meta system. The irony is that if this system continues in a certain unhealthy direction, then no amount of defense resources will enable even a satisfactory way of life. The U.S. 'could' do a lot of good on the world stage (if you stop your ruling class stealing everyone elses beer). The emotional drive behind why most of your human 'resources' enlist is born of this want. One of the reasons for the high level of PTSD in returned vets now days might just be the mis-match between that noble intent and the reality that is found. The other reason is a lack of connection throughout the civilian population upon returning.

Question authority...
The cult of personality. Stop it. Seriously, just stop. This correlates directly with the lack of civilian connection and allows the glittery guru thing go unchecked. A mature and healthy 'tall poppy syndrome' can counter the cult of personality. We have gone too far the other way with an unhealthy level of it down here. To the point where we actively hack down anyone who tries to rise above, good or bad. Although, in Australia it IS coming from a want of healthy connection, this shows that a balance needs to be struck.


Addressing these three points is in no way helpful to the tiny group of people who hold the reigns in the U.S. or those who hang on to their coat tails. But, from over here, it seems that if you want to keep your guns, and other freedoms of similar ilk that constitute what you seem to value in life, Seeking to address those three points from bottom up and top down might help. It's probably going to be a long slog...
Last edited by terra on Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by aussie luke » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:21 am

I live in Australia and am so fucking grateful we don’t have guns.

I’ve lived half my life here and half in the UK. Never seen a gun. (Apart from at a country show with big old muskets). Never known anyone who owns a gun. Would bet no one I know has ever seen/owned/touched a gun outside of any sort of military or police training.

I like in a coastal suburb full of families, yet two doors from me is a known drug house with at any time 6-12 people living there. They get ‘visitors’ all day and night. They’re all users too. And there’s kids that live there. Little kids. There is regular fights, screaming and shouting, someone gets kicked out of the house and smashes their way back in, smashing doors down etc. They get Police raids all the time yet somehow they can never find anything. There used to be another house the same a few doors the other side of us too. They used to fight with each other in the street or outside each other’s houses occasionally, but the cops would get called and that would be it.

If there were guns here, they would have them. They would have killed each other by now. Probably the kids too.

If it wasn’t them, one of our other neighbors would have.

There are loads of these houses around. Everywhere. As it is they don’t really actually cause anyone else any real trouble apart from the noise and their house is an eyesore.

I imagine if anyone knows of ANY guns, it would be them. But it is likely they would be grandpas old single shot rifles or pistols, handmade or modified pieces of crap, or possibly replicas or decommissioned etc

They definitely would not be automatic or semi automatic high powered machine guns or handguns.

You essentially couldn’t go on a shooting spree if you wanted to. I wouldn’t even know where to fucking start. I’d probably get myself killed or arrested trying.

If there were legally owned firearms in half the houses on our street, there’d be a dozen in that house. And my world and my young families world would be very very different.

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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by buckethead » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:41 pm

Where’s Australia?

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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by nafod » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:48 pm

buckethead wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:41 pm
Where’s Australia?
Sniffing China's armpit
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by tonkadtx » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:02 am

Thing's that are rarely addressed (on purpose):
-The relative homogeneity of a society in relation to it's level of gun violence
-countries with ubiquitous access to guns but relatively little gun violence
-the fact that most of the U.S. gun violence is concentrated both demographically and geographically.
-that while mass shootings have become more common, many (MANY!) of them have something in common and it isn't guns (hint: think ssri/anti-anxiety meds with suicidal ideation). I know correlation/coincidence does not prove causality. So were these guys crazy fuckers who needed to be on meds, or did the meds make them pop?

BTW, when they say fire arm deaths they are including suicides.

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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by JimZipCode » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:35 am

tonkadtx wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:02 am
-countries with ubiquitous access to guns but relatively little gun violence
Which ones are those?


tonkadtx wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:02 am
BTW, when they say fire arm deaths they are including suicides.
Is there any reason not to? The fact that guns give suicide attempts a higher probability of success, is not a resounding argument against gun control.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Sangoma » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:46 am

JimZipCode wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:35 am
tonkadtx wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:02 am
-countries with ubiquitous access to guns but relatively little gun violence
Which ones are those?

The first one that comes to mind is Israel. The amount of automatic and other guns you sed on the streets is mind boggling. Mind you, most of them are carried by soldiers.however, seeing a civikian with M16 over his shoulder is not unusual. Bear Jew has probably lived in Israel more recently than me and can correct me if I am wrong. Myy understanding is that when you reach the age of conscription you have a weapon assigned to you for the duration of your military age (55 in my time), for which you are responsible. Lots of guns, but killing lots of people for no apperent reason - these kinds of incidents are unheard of. Very low homicide rate too.

Would I be mistaken to say that these kind of shootings we saw in Vegas are pretty unique to USA?
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by tonkadtx » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:15 am

Which ones are those?
Switzerland. 30% (approx) gun ownership, virtually zero gun crime. About 1/5 of their suicides though.
The Scandinavian Countries (except Sweden). Gun ownership is common (20-30 guns per 100 people), gun crime is rare. Sweden used to be the same, now it is becoming the AK and grenade attack capital of Europe.

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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:09 pm

tonkadtx wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:02 am
Thing's that are rarely addressed (on purpose):
-The relative homogeneity of a society in relation to it's level of gun violence
-countries with ubiquitous access to guns but relatively little gun violence
-the fact that most of the U.S. gun violence is concentrated both demographically and geographically.
-that while mass shootings have become more common, many (MANY!) of them have something in common and it isn't guns (hint: think ssri/anti-anxiety meds with suicidal ideation). I know correlation/coincidence does not prove causality. So were these guys crazy fuckers who needed to be on meds, or did the meds make them pop?

BTW, when they say fire arm deaths they are including suicides.
What we've done:
• If you want restrictions on "scary black rifles", we've done next to nothing.
• If you want soft targets like elementary schools substantially hardened, we've done next to nothing
• If you want real studies to see the relationship between psychotropic drugs and mass murder, we've done nothing.
• If you want targeted solutions to gun violence in communities where it's rampant, Chicago is an example of having done nothing.
• If you want law enforcement to have solid plans for mass shooting scenarios, we've probably done a lot.

USA! USA!

I hope I'm mistaken about most of this.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by dead man walking » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:11 pm

we could and should do better.

first article addresses situations like that in chicago.

second offers a broader array of suggestions to make society safer.

i don't know what would work. and i don't care if solutions are imperfect or only partical (i.e. addresses inner city violence but not mass killings). doing nothing or only arguing against reform is phony constitutional purity. there are limits placed on first amendment rights. placing limits on the second amendment for the good of society follows the same principle.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/opin ... ght-region

https://www.nytimes.com/inter
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gene » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:41 pm

dead man walking wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:11 pm
we could and should do better.

first article addresses situations like that in chicago.

second offers a broader array of suggestions to make society safer.

i don't know what would work. and i don't care if solutions are imperfect or only partical (i.e. addresses inner city violence but not mass killings). doing nothing or only arguing against reform is phony constitutional purity. there are limits placed on first amendment rights. placing limits on the second amendment for the good of society follows the same principle.
We have lots of limits. Bans on nuclear weapons, lethal chemicals, biological agents. most explosives with NFA registration. Anti-tank weapons, anti-aircraft weapons are generally banned. While artillery is legal the rounds are considered destructive devices. Possession of any firearms by felons, the mentally defective and habitual users of marijuana (including medical marijuana ) is illegal.

All FFL dealer sales require photo ID, signing a Form 4473 and submitting to a Brady Check.

Some States banned "assault weapons" - this did not stop the mass shooting at San Bernardino which claimed 14 lives.

French gun laws that ban civilian possession of automatic firearms did not stop the November 2015 attacks that claimed 130 people in Paris and St. Denis or the Charlie Hebdo shootings that claimed 12 lives.

dead man walking wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:11 pm
doing nothing or only arguing against reform is phony constitutional purity. there are limits placed on first amendment rights. placing limits on the second amendment for the good of society follows the same principle.
Who decides what is "good for society"? You? A voting Majority? The Democratic Party?

What are the consequences of a ban on ugly guns? They're rarely used in crime.

How about handguns, which are the largest source of mass shootings and violent crime. The whole point of the ugly gun ban was to create a legal precident for a handgun ban. No handguns? What do we do?

The police don't have to protect anyone. They don't even have to protect people who file a PFA. ( see http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/polit ... otect.html )

So who protects us? We're on our own. Are you telling the weak and elderly to submit and die? Is that your "progress"?

Here is the largest mass shooting in US history.... an act of gun control.
The previous day, a detachment of the U.S. 7th Cavalry Regiment commanded by Major Samuel M. Whitside intercepted Spotted Elk's band of Miniconjou Lakota and 38 Hunkpapa Lakota near Porcupine Butte and escorted them 5 miles (8.0 km) westward to Wounded Knee Creek, where they made camp. The remainder of the 7th Cavalry Regiment, led by Colonel James W. Forsyth, arrived and surrounded the encampment. The regiment was supported by a battery of four Hotchkiss mountain guns.[6]

On the morning of December 29, the U.S. Cavalry troops went into the camp to disarm the Lakota. One version of events claims that during the process of disarming the Lakota, a deaf tribesman named Black Coyote was reluctant to give up his rifle, claiming he had paid a lot for it.[7] A scuffle over the rifle ensued, causing several Lakota to draw their weapons and open fire on the cavalry regiment. The situation quickly devolved as both sides began firing indiscriminately.

By the time the battle was over, more than 150 men, women, and children of the Lakota had been killed and 51 were wounded (4 men and 47 women and children, some of whom died later); some estimates placed the number of dead at 300.[3] Twenty-five army soldiers also died, and 39 were wounded (6 of the wounded later died).[8] At least twenty soldiers were awarded the Medal of Honor.[9] In 2001, the National Congress of American Indians passed two resolutions condemning the military awards and called on the U.S. government to rescind them.[10]
Last edited by Gene on Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gene » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:51 pm

dead man walking wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:11 pm
we could and should do better.
Yes, we should.

The War on Drugs has failed to curb drug abuse. Prohibition failed to curb alcohol abuse. Gun people would accept restrictions if Gun Control Enthusiasts would abandon the narrative that less guns equals less gun crime.

The logic of "less guns, less gun crime" drives towards prohibition.


The NFA registry was an effective gun registry. People paid their occupation tax, submitted their form 3, finger prints and a $200 tax check. The number of crimes committed with registered automatic firearms was tiny. Ten suicides and 2 murders by the 1980s. This with a class of firearms which is reckoned as more dangerous than most.

Charles Rangel and Bill Hughes demagogued the registry, saying that "nobody needs machineguns". Damn few of us do. That wasn't the point. The point was that people were willing to submit fingerprints like a common criminal, pay the BATF&E $200 and endure nine months to a year waitiing period to acquire the item. The registry worked, the background check worked, but some people just cannot leave things alone.

Less guns, less gun crime - prohibition.

The gun control lobby should have cherished the NFA. They should have protected it, creating trust amongst the gun community. So that a similar scheme could be created for handguns.

Instead the gun control lobby did what came naturally - they demagogued and fucked it up. The result was a freeze in the registry and an explosion in prices for the items.

The ink wasn't dry on the Feinstein ban before the Democrats were talking about banning handguns.


If the gun control lobby wants to reduce resistance and improve compliance they can stop fucking with law abiding people.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gene » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:08 pm

aussie luke wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:21 am
I live in Australia and am so fucking grateful we don’t have guns.
Ignorance is bliss.....
|
A JEWELLERY maker produced sub-machine guns in his suburban home, selling them through an organised crime syndicate for $15,000 each.

JAILED GANG FOUNDER'S LINK TO OUTSIDE WORLD

Backyard arms trader Angelos Koots admitted making up to 100 of the perfectly constructed MAC 10 machine guns - more commonly seen in war zones and believed to have been used in Sydney gang shootings - at his Seven Hills house.

The guns, sold with two magazines and a silencer, were of such quality that during "Mythbuster" style tests alongside a genuine MAC 10 they fired 600 rounds a minute.

Sydney District Court heard that Koots made the guns for an associate who had links to outlaw motorcycle gangs.

The high-powered made-to-order weapons were then sold at meetings organised by a Penrith gym owner and another syndicate member, with the transaction taking place opposite a McDonalds in Glenmore Park.

When police raided Koots' house, police found diagrams, blocks of aluminium and steel, steel offcuts and moulds matching the MAC 10 machineguns.

Koots was convicted in relation to four guns after getting an immunity provision for giving evidence against other syndicate members. But under cross-examination by crown prosecutor Gary Corr at a hearing in Penrith District Court, Koots admitted he'd manufactured up to 100 of the guns.

Prosecutors believe at least one of the guns may have been used in a high-profile assassination attempt of an OMCG member, but this never made it into evidence.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/jewell ... 08ab560cd4
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by dead man walking » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:33 pm

Gene wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:51 pm
dead man walking wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:11 pm
we could and should do better.
Yes, we should.
ok gene, you're in charge.

what do you do?
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gav » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:35 pm

Trying to simplify things a little might help. Could the reason these things happen a lot more in America than elsewhere be the fact that you're a bunch of fucking loons?
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by nafod » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:07 pm

At the heart of it is this American over-the-top gun fetish. A path to manhood, source of cool identity, somehow conflated with patriotism. Without your guns you are just a lesser person, not whole. All of the laws in the world will not cure the root cause. We'll just go on shooting up elmentary school children, gay clubbers, boring municipal beauracrats, and country music fans.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Turdacious » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:17 pm

The important thing is that our media is doing their best to remind the next psychopath to use a bump stock and how to make one.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:08 am

nafod wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:07 pm
At the heart of it is this American over-the-top gun fetish. A path to manhood, source of cool identity, somehow conflated with patriotism. Without your guns you are just a lesser person, not whole. All of the laws in the world will not cure the root cause. We'll just go on shooting up elmentary school children, gay clubbers, boring municipal beauracrats, and country music fans.
I don't think my gun owning friends identify with guns as you describe. Liberal friends and family agree with you.

By definition, laws are backed up by government threat of incarceration and violence. Laws that restrict individual freedoms (especially traditionally accepted freedoms) should be as minimal as possible.

The illustrations you reference include: a nut with stolen guns, a Muslim terrorist, 2 other Muslim terrorists (one a Saudi immigrant), and a maniac of indeterminate motives.

While debating what degree of constitutional rights we should forfeit, how about an interim focus on gang riddled areas (see earlier link from DMW), improved focus on radicalized Muslims, researching the links between SSRIs and mass murder, and public pressure encouraging uber liberal Hollywood to reduce gun porn in entertainment?

There are multiple areas where we can make bipartisan progress towards reducing gun violence before infringing on the legitimate rights of tens of millions of harmless & decent gun owners. That's how it should be IMO.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by nafod » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:24 am

DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:08 am
There are multiple areas where we can make bipartisan progress towards reducing gun violence before infringing on the legitimate rights of tens of millions of harmless & decent gun owners. That's how it should be IMO.
I'm totally down with that, absolutely, hell we should try anything, something, but I don't think it is going to work.

If there was a chance we'd make this sort of move, we'd have done it after a bunch of little children were gunned down in an elementary school. Yet nothing has changed. Nothing...except for the quality of the weaponry. It just keeps getting better, and therefore easier to kill lots of people.

Bump stocks. Did it really take 58 country music-loving citizens to die (and another 500 to get injured, some shot through the head I imagine, so not much living going on there) before someone who is supposed to anticipate these things (Our elected reps? Owned and operated by the NRA?) realized that the ability to convert a semi-auto to full auto might be A Bad Thing? All these years of "gun huggers" pointing out how stupid the "gun grabbers" are for confusing semi-autos with automatics, meanwhile they knew damn well these things are coming on the market, giving the next nut case full auto, and not a fucking peep. But wouldn't want to interfere with the #fullautofriday spraygasm.

Based on what the bump stocks are made out of, they're just a quick 3D print job in a basement. We'll be seeing them again in the next shooting.

This story didn't get much notice, because of the Vegas shooting...
http://wreg.com/2017/10/05/police-man-c ... is-coming/
WASHINGTON COUNTY, Tenn. — New information has been released about the man caught carrying numerous weapons and more than 900 rounds of ammunition in east Tennessee.

According to CBS affiliate WJHL, Scott Edmisten was “unsteady” and “very angry” when authorities pulled him over during a traffic stop this week.

...An inventory of his vehicle recovered a loaded .357 magnum, a loaded .45 semi auto, a full auto AR rifle in .223 caliber, a full auto AR rifle in .308 caliber, over 900 rounds of ammunition, a mask and black fatigues. Neither of the full auto rifles were registered and the serial numbers were gone.

Four other guns were reportedly discovered inside the suspect’s home as officer’s executed a search warrant. One had been altered to make it fully automatic. Investigators also found about $6,000 worth of ammunition that hadn’t been opened.

Washington County Sheriff Ed Graybeal told the Associated Press while guns and ammunition are common in Tennessee, it was “odd” for all the guns and clips to be loaded. In addition, he said, when people have survival gear with them, they are usually going hunting, but that didn’t seem to be the case.
Oh he was going hunting, alright. Would have been two unrelated mass shootings days apart.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gene » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:49 am

nafod wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:07 pm
At the heart of it is this American over-the-top gun fetish. A path to manhood, source of cool identity, somehow conflated with patriotism. Without your guns you are just a lesser person, not whole. All of the laws in the world will not cure the root cause.
At this heart of this is an Elitist backed campaign to over turn the Republic, replacing it with an insipid Administrative State that enmeshes everyone into its clutches.

Before the 1960s most politicians were not hostile to gun ownership. JFK was an NRA life member. Hubert Humphrey made remarks about the balance of power between the State and the ruled. FDR concerned himself with "respecting the second amendment". He and Mrs. Roosevelt slept with handguns under their pillows, labeled "His" and "Hers".

Most gun control organizations were founded by wealthy Americans, two with the help of the US Intelligence Community.

HCI - founded by Edwin O Welles of the CIA and Dupont Executive Pete Shields Today it's the Brady Campaign.
NHPHV - founded by Reverend Leon Sullivan with the help of CIA director William Colby. Today it's the VPC. One of its workers, Josh Sugarmann, is the author of the "assault weapon" campaign.
Everytown - founded and backed by billionaire Mike Bloomberg.
Americans for Responsible Solutions - founded by Gabby Giffords with the financial backing of Steve and Amber Mostyn millionaire Texas attorneys.
Veterans for Responsible Solutions - founded by Gabby Giffords with the financial backing of Steve and Amber Mostyn millionaire Texas attorneys. Wonder how much McChrystal and Petreaus get paid to work for her?

The US Media, which is almost uniformly anti-gun, is mostly owned by just six conglomerates. Some of the rest are owned or have majority share by Billionaires. Billionaire Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post. Billionaire Carlos Slim owns the majority share of the New York Times.

Gun control is a 1 percent thing. Some of the founders of these organizations are so paranoid that they don't trust their own national guard....

Mike Bloomberg, requesting that the NY Guard not deploy in NYC with firearms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltI_CHa3Qpc


Where I work I am forbidden to possess firearms. I do just fine without them. I'd be fine without them. I pity the nation if we are ever disarmed. Look what happened to the Native Americans, who were subject to gun control. They were culturally cleansed of their culture and religion.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gene » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:01 am

nafod wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:07 pm
We'll just go on shooting up elmentary school children, gay clubbers, boring municipal beauracrats, and country music fans.
Nobody seems to worry about deaths due to Medical Misadventure, traffic accident or the consumption of sugar. Most "gun violence" are suicides. Strip those away and you're mostly left with the casualties and collateral damage of the War on Drugs..... after that what's left? A few thousand people a year.

I highlighted the gay club for a reason.... the narrative of the Pulse Nightclub shooting was "homophobia".

The shooter himself told Orlando Police that he was avenging the drone strike death of Abu Wahid and innocent civilians killed in Syria and Iraq. He identified himself as a "mujahideen".

From Negotiation 1...

"13:29:26 "Suspect: You're speaking to the person who pledged allegiance to the Islamic State of (unintelligible)

"13:29:38 "No. Because you have to tell America to stop bombing Syria and Iraq. They are killing a lot of innocent people. What am I to do here when my people are getting killed over there? You get what I'm saying?"

13:30:00 "You need to stop the U.S. Air strikes. They need to stop the U.S. air strikes, Okay?"

13:30:19 "What's going on is that I feel the pain of people getting killed in Syria and Iraq and all over the Muslim (unidentified word..... I'd guess the word "Umma", or body of believers)"

13:31:38 "Well you need to know that they need to stop bombing Syria and Iraq. The US is collaborating with Russia and they are killing innocent women and children, okay?"

13:31:49 "My homeboy Tamerlan Tsarniev did his thing on the Boston Marathon, my home boy (unidentified name) did his thing okay, so now it's my turn, okay?"

13:32:2 Negotiator" Okay, let's start. My name is Andy. What's your's?"

Suspect: "My name is Islamic soldier, okay?"

Negotiator: Okay. What can I call you?

Suspect: Call me Mujahideen, call me the Soldier of God".


14:08:42 Suspect: Yo, the air strike that killed Abu Wahid a few weeks ago --

Negotiator: Okay.

Suspect: That's what triggered it, okay?"
http://www.cityoforlando.net/cityclerk/ ... -12-16.zip

Our lying sack of shit President, who cracked jokes about "drone strikes" here....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWKG6ZmgAX4

....wasn't going to admit that the Pulse nightclub shooting was blowback for his meddling in Syria.

He blamed the NRA and "homophobia" instead.

The US Government is up to no good overseas. It's the NRA's fault that someone took advantage of our freedoms?

What of France? They have tough gun control laws. They meddle in the Middle East. Look what that got them. 129 dead in Paris. Committed with firearms taken from the Balkans.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gene » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:09 am

dead man walking wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:33 pm
Gene wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:51 pm
dead man walking wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:11 pm
we could and should do better.
Yes, we should.
ok gene, you're in charge.

what do you do?
What are YOUR goals, DMW?

We could agree to reduce violence. Eliminate the War on Drugs. That would save thousands of lives, make our cities safer. I back marijuana legalization in Pennsylvania, and it's a tall order. Too many people discuss the evils of demon weed over their Martini lunches.

We already have the Brady Law. How is it working? The Los Vegas shooter passed his Brady Checks. Ban bump fire stocks? I won't miss them, though I am afraid of "fire rate" arguments, since these tie in to any manually operated firearm.

All I need to know about gun control I can learn from the California legislature and local governments. Each year they come up with novel ways to disarm law abiding people. Each year these don't work so they come up with still more ideas. In August of this year LA City council banned the sale of "ultra compact handguns". (see http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-m ... story.html ) The NRA worked to roll it back.

A lot of us said that handguns were next.... we were told we were being paranoid. We read what the gun control lobby's own strategists have said. Pete Shields in the 1970s said "register then confiscate".

The gangs waste each other over drug turf and debt but it's the NRA's fault. Free hint - the gangs sell shit that was also banned. Using firearms in a drug related felony is a crime. People pays their money and takes their chances....

There are an estimated 200,000,000 to 600,000,000 firearms in private hands in the US. People really do self regulate. More than 99 percent of them.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gene » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:19 am

nafod wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:24 am
Bump stocks.
Which were approved by the BATF&E in 2010. After Newtown they could have been banned.... instead Diane Feinstein wanted to put all military pattern firearms in the NFA data base, and update it to an electronic version. Once the NFA was updated then a Federal registery of handguns is much easier. She got forty votes in the Senate.

She would have easily gotten the votes for a bump stock ban in the Senate in 2012.
nafod wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:24 am
Did it really take 58 country music-loving citizens to die (and another 500 to get injured, some shot through the head I imagine, so not much living going on there) before someone who is supposed to anticipate these things (Our elected reps? Owned and operated by the NRA?) realized that the ability to convert a semi-auto to full auto might be A Bad Thing?

All these years of "gun huggers" pointing out how stupid the "gun grabbers" are for confusing semi-autos with automatics, meanwhile they knew damn well these things are coming on the market, giving the next nut case full auto, and not a fucking peep. But wouldn't want to interfere with the #fullautofriday spraygasm.
2.1.6 Machinegun. Firearms within the definition of machinegun include weapons that shoot, are designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-n ... 2/download (page 5 )


On pages 11 through 15 the BATF&E describes parts that convert regular semi-autos to full auto. Prefaced by the following paragraph

Included within the definition of machinegun is any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in
converting a weapon into a machinegun. This portion of the machinegun definition addresses what are commonly referred to as conversion kits. The "any part designed and intended solely and exclusively” language refers to a part that was produced for no other reason than to convert a weapon into a machinegun.


I needed to do this the first time, Nafod, that you told us that an AR15 was a "machinegun". I have quoted the ATF's own definitions.

The bump stock does things with your finger, at least I guess so. Again, I've never seen one. Aside the arguments for "rate of firepower" I could not care less about them.

How about we start by eliminating the War on Drugs? That will save hundreds of times more lives than were lost in Vegas or Newtown.
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gene » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:26 am

nafod wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:24 am
This story didn't get much notice, because of the Vegas shooting...
http://wreg.com/2017/10/05/police-man-c ... is-coming/
WASHINGTON COUNTY, Tenn. — New information has been released about the man caught carrying numerous weapons and more than 900 rounds of ammunition in east Tennessee.

According to CBS affiliate WJHL, Scott Edmisten was “unsteady” and “very angry” when authorities pulled him over during a traffic stop this week.

...An inventory of his vehicle recovered a loaded .357 magnum, a loaded .45 semi auto, a full auto AR rifle in .223 caliber, a full auto AR rifle in .308 caliber, over 900 rounds of ammunition, a mask and black fatigues. Neither of the full auto rifles were registered and the serial numbers were gone.

There are laws against possession of full auto firearms that are not on the NFA registry. There are laws against removing serial numbers. What's the problem here? The laws are working, right?

For all we know he was hauling this crap to a drug or biker gang. We have no proof he was on his way to a mass shooting.

Nine hundred rounds of ammunition? That's less than five 7 pocket bandoliers of ammunition for an M16. On stripper clips with the spoon adapter. Is there an issue here?
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Re: Why simply comparing U.S. gun laws with Australia's is bullshit...

Post by Gene » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:44 am

Sangoma wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:46 am
JimZipCode wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:35 am
tonkadtx wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:02 am
-countries with ubiquitous access to guns but relatively little gun violence
Which ones are those?

The first one that comes to mind is Israel. The amount of automatic and other guns you sed on the streets is mind boggling. Mind you, most of them are carried by soldiers.however, seeing a civikian with M16 over his shoulder is not unusual. Bear Jew has probably lived in Israel more recently than me and can correct me if I am wrong. Myy understanding is that when you reach the age of conscription you have a weapon assigned to you for the duration of your military age (55 in my time), for which you are responsible. Lots of guns, but killing lots of people for no apperent reason - these kinds of incidents are unheard of. Very low homicide rate too.
Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre. A physician named Baruch Goldstein murdered 29 Palestinians who were peacefully praying. He used his duty weapon and hand grenades.

The people there had to beat him to death with a fire extinguisher to stop him. Palestinians don't have gun rights in Israel.
Sangoma wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:46 am
Would I be mistaken to say that these kind of shootings we saw in Vegas are pretty unique to USA?
More people died in the 2015 Paris shootings. About double. The firearms were imported from the Balkans.

The record might be the Nazi Einsatzgruppen shootings. Over 1,500,000 Jews in occupied USSR. The Red Army retreated, the Nazis routinely confiscated firearms on the pain of death, and the Jews were there for the picking.
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