gun control

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Gene
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Re: gun control

Post by Gene » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:32 pm

nafod wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:49 pm
In a "Nixon goes to China" sort of way, only the Repubs can do something on this. They can always obstruct the Dems.
They could but why bother doing so? A ban is a waste of law enforcement resources. Oh, I know, Nafod - you're a soldier and thus are an expert.

Let's see what other experts think....

In 2016 the FBI reported that 374 people were killed with rifles out of 15,070 murders. Knives were used 1,603 times, firsts were used 656 times (see https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... able-4.xls ). So we're talking 2.5 percent of murders from using rifles.

The FBI does not have a category "Assault weapon". Just rifles..... fair enough to say that "rifle" covers it?

Leading causes of death for US persons.

Heart disease: 633,842
Cancer: 595,930
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 155,041
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 146,571
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 140,323
Alzheimer’s disease: 110,561
Diabetes: 79,535
Influenza and Pneumonia: 57,062
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis: 49,959
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 44,193

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

So a person in the US is

1695 times more likely to die of heart disease than be killed with a rifle
1497 times more likely to die of cancer than to be killed with a rifle.
415 times more likely to die of chronic lower respiratory diseases than to be killed with a rifle
and so on....


The sum total of the top ten causes of death is 2,013,017 people. Those 374 unfortunates are very unlucky, as they're 5,382 times more likely to have died of the top ten causes combined.


If it weren't for Oligarchs and their hired henchmen we probably wouldn't be having this discussion at all. Mike Bloomberg and a few other super rich Progressives are bankrolling a lot of the 'gun control' in the US.

Focusing us on the 'problem'.... which is not much of a problem... unless it's in your face day after day thanks to the Corporate owned Media.
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Re: gun control

Post by Gene » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:56 pm

nafod wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:54 am
It’s a little known fact that Prohibition greatly decreased the incidence of alcoholism and related disease in the population. Here’s a good factoid...
In 1830, on average, Americans consumed 1.7 bottles of hard liquor per week, three times the amount consumed in 2010
Holy shit, that’s a lot of fire water
[/quote]

Really? Allegedly liver failure fell during Prohibition. What isn't in dispute was that the Federal Government was poisoning alcohol. They had an approved list of toxins to add to alcohol before it could be sold.
The great mass of Americans do not drink liquor. There are two fringes of society who are hunting for “booze.” They are the so-called upper crust and the down-and-out in the slums. They are dying off fast from poison “hooch.” If America can be made sober and temperate in 50 years a good job will have been done.

The Government is under no obligation to furnish the people with alcohol that is drinkable when the Constitution prohibits it. The person who drinks this industrial alcohol is a deliberate suicide.’To root out a bad habit costs many lives and long years of effort.
https://www.alcoholproblemsandsolutions ... ohibition/


During the 1970s the US government was spraying Paraquat onto marijuana growing offshore.
Paraquat may also be used as an aquatic herbicide, and was once used in the United States and Mexico to kill marijuana plants. However, this particular application proved fatal when a number of deaths were observed when marijuana contaminated with this chemical was inhaled
http://www.toxipedia.org/display/toxipedia/Paraquat


If American be made "sober and temperate".... or "safe and gun free".


Some people just can't mind their own damn business.
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Re: gun control

Post by nafod » Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:15 pm

Gene wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:32 pm
Leading causes of death for US persons.

Heart disease: 633,842
Cancer: 595,930
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 155,041
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 146,571
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 140,323
Alzheimer’s disease: 110,561
Diabetes: 79,535
Influenza and Pneumonia: 57,062
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis: 49,959
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 44,193
Every single one of the items in that list above have huge efforts underway, funded by both government and private, to reduce them as causes of death. Every.single.one. Tons of research on identifying and mitigating. Finding out the underlying causes. Etc. Some of them to the tune of billions of dollars.
Last edited by nafod on Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: gun control

Post by Sangoma » Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:08 pm

Comparing mortality stats is only useful to make an argument against a particular cause. Say, why worry about diabetes when mortality from heart disease is ten times that. Is it a good consolation for someone whose relative has been shot dead that twenty times more people died of a heart attack that day? Mind you, good proportion of the death stats you posted are really old people - at the end it's some disease that kills everyone, most commonly heart disease or cancer.

Below is another perspective.

Brady Campaign
Every day, 46 children and teens are shot in murders, assaults, suicides & suicide attempts, unintentional shootings, and police intervention.

Every day, 7 children and teens die from gun violence:

4 are murdered
3 die from suicide
Every day, 40 children and teens are shot and survive:

31 injured in an attack
1 survives a suicide attempt
8 shot unintentionally
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Re: gun control

Post by Gene » Sun May 06, 2018 4:27 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:01 am
without a special license, which involves medical exam, why is it possible to buy a machine gun without special checks and training?
Looks like they caught you too, Sangoma. We're not talking about machine guns here.
Assault weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully-automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons --anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun-- can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons.
Josh Sugarmann, Violence Policy Center. They're an extremist version of the Brady Campaign.

https://www.quotes.net/quote/17826

Civilian purchase of machine guns in the US is limited to what is on the National Firearms Act registry.

Here are the rules https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulatio ... rearms-act

The list was frozen in 1986 by Charles Rangel and Bill Hughes of New Jersey. Anything new is not legal to register and is contraband. The penalty for possession of a Class 2 firearm without the tax stamp is a $100,000 fine and 10 years in prison. Also a permanent disability to own, touch or use a firearm.

Today prices of NFA Title 2 firearms have risen to well north of $5,000, some cost as much as $50,000. The idea of a freeze was to "poison pill" the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986, which provided relief from abuses of gun owners.

The death count from NFA firearms was small - two murders and ten suicides by 1986. One murder was by a Dayton Ohio Police Officer who used his Uzi to murder someone.

The freeze ruined the confidence many of us had in a gun registry. We realized that once our ware was on the registry that politicians would dick with it.

Here is something that NAFOD won't share with you, probably because the Oligarchs haven't put it into his head yet - Pennsylvania has a handgun sales registry. We also tightly limit private transfers for handguns. I've lived with such a registry for years... never bugged me.

My concern is that the Gun Control lobby cannot leave well enough alone. They also confect bullshit out of thin air - that "assault weapons" are machine guns, that they fire "high powered ammunition" and that they're used in "most mass shootings". All three are false.
Last edited by Gene on Sun May 06, 2018 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: gun control

Post by Gene » Sun May 06, 2018 5:10 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:08 pm
Comparing mortality stats is only useful to make an argument against a particular cause. Say, why worry about diabetes when mortality from heart disease is ten times that. Is it a good consolation for someone whose relative has been shot dead that twenty times more people died of a heart attack that day? Mind you, good proportion of the death stats you posted are really old people - at the end it's some disease that kills everyone, most commonly heart disease or cancer.

Below is another perspective.

Brady Campaign
Every day, 46 children and teens are shot in murders, assaults, suicides & suicide attempts, unintentional shootings, and police intervention.

Every day, 7 children and teens die from gun violence:

4 are murdered
3 die from suicide
Every day, 40 children and teens are shot and survive:

31 injured in an attack
1 survives a suicide attempt
8 shot unintentionally
First of all, how many people think that eighteen and nineteen year olds are "children"? The Brady Campaign figures include these people in the reference that Sangoma cited here. Eighteen and nineteen year olds are serving in the US military. Are we using child soldiers?

How many kids under eighteen are so affected? Why do I suspect that the cohort from 18 and 19 year olds account for quite a bit of that mayhem, cause they're legal adults who are not under parental control? Kids not on the street or in "the game" might get caught in crossfire, but this is rare.

The CDC figures include "kids" up to 24 years old. http://www.contemporarypediatrics.com/c ... h-children

Police shootings and suicides are hardly caused by easy access to firearms.

Does anyone think that US Police are going to stop carrying firearms because civilians have them "controlled"?

Quite a few countries with very strong gun control have higher suicide rates than we do in the US. South Korea and Japan are good examples. South Korea's male suicide rate is 36 per 100,000 people. Japan's male suicide rate is 24.5. The US male rate is 20 per 100,000. If firearms made suicide "easier" then the US should have a higher per capita rate than either country.

Riddle me this - how is that so many Progressives want "death with dignity" in a Doctor's office but feel free to lump in firearm related suicides into "gun violence"? Dead is dead, yes? Perhaps though allowing people to go to a Physician to end their lives would reduce firearm related suicides?


The per capita 'gun murder" rate. The United State comes in at 16 on the the following page.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... death_rate Sort by "homicides".

Most of the countries that lead us have tight controls, especially Jamaica. Jamaica's murder rate went up five times after the imposition of Gun Court. Gun Court imposes life sentences for possession of a firearm or ammunition without a license.
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Re: gun control

Post by Gene » Sun May 06, 2018 5:19 pm

nafod wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:15 pm
Gene wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:32 pm
Leading causes of death for US persons.

Heart disease: 633,842
Cancer: 595,930
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 155,041
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 146,571
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 140,323
Alzheimer’s disease: 110,561
Diabetes: 79,535
Influenza and Pneumonia: 57,062
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis: 49,959
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 44,193
Every single one of the items in that list above have huge efforts underway, funded by both government and private, to reduce them as causes of death. Every.single.one. Tons of research on identifying and mitigating. Finding out the underlying causes. Etc. Some of them to the tune of billions of dollars.
Which is fine, good.

Does the Oligarch's preferred solution "gun control" work for "gun violence"? Depends.
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Re: gun control

Post by JimZipCode » Sun May 06, 2018 8:26 pm

Gene wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 5:10 pm
First of all, how many people think that eighteen and nineteen year olds are "children"?
Anyone who's ever raised a teenager, taught a kid to drive, sent a kid to college, or paid for car insurance for an 18-20yo.
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Re: gun control

Post by Gene » Sun May 06, 2018 8:32 pm

JimZipCode wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:26 pm
Gene wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 5:10 pm
First of all, how many people think that eighteen and nineteen year olds are "children"?
Anyone who's ever raised a teenager, taught a kid to drive, sent a kid to college, or paid for car insurance for an 18-20yo.
What does the law say about them, Jim?
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Re: gun control

Post by JimZipCode » Sun May 06, 2018 8:48 pm

Gene wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:32 pm
What does the law say about them, Jim?
That they can't buy alcohol.
“War is the remedy our enemies have chosen. Other simple remedies were within their choice. You know it and they know it, but they wanted war, and I say let us give them all they want.”
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Re: gun control

Post by Sangoma » Sun May 06, 2018 11:50 pm

Gene wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 4:27 pm
Sangoma wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:01 am
without a special license, which involves medical exam, why is it possible to buy a machine gun without special checks and training?
Looks like they caught you too, Sangoma. We're not talking about machine guns here.
You are dodging the question. I will rephrase: You cannot drive a heavy truck without a special license, which involves medical exam, why is it possible to buy a semi-automatic assault rifle (the group includes AK-47 and AR-15) gun without special checks and training?
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Re: gun control

Post by Sangoma » Mon May 07, 2018 12:06 am

Gene wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 5:10 pm
First of all, how many people think that eighteen and nineteen year olds are "children"? The Brady Campaign figures include these people in the reference that Sangoma cited here. Eighteen and nineteen year olds are serving in the US military. Are we using child soldiers?
I would say those who have 18 year old children. Yes, the Army does use children soldiers, because they are the easiest to brainwash and they are the cheapest to buy.
Quite a few countries with very strong gun control have higher suicide rates than we do in the US. South Korea and Japan are good examples. South Korea's male suicide rate is 36 per 100,000 people. Japan's male suicide rate is 24.5. The US male rate is 20 per 100,000. If firearms made suicide "easier" then the US should have a higher per capita rate than either country.
You are building a straw man argument here. Suicide is a complex issue, and you very well know that, and comparing different countries on one factor is meaningless. However, I posted earlier that suicide rates are very well correlated with gun ownership figures from one state to another in the USA.
Riddle me this - how is that so many Progressives want "death with dignity" in a Doctor's office but feel free to lump in firearm related suicides into "gun violence"? Dead is dead, yes? Perhaps though allowing people to go to a Physician to end their lives would reduce firearm related suicides?
Again, not the same. Vast majority of the Progressives are not advocating for free suicide for all, but for euthanasia, ending life for people with terminal illness.
The per capita 'gun murder" rate. The United State comes in at 16 on the the following page.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... death_rate Sort by "homicides".
First of all, USA comes in at 10, and in the list of countries above only for three countries the stats are presented for one year - or without a question mark. You might also notice that gun ownership in the USA is by far the highest on that small list. In this respect the efficiency of the police force and law reinforcements is several orders higher than in those countries, so you could argue that tightening gun ownership laws is more likely to make a difference. I already mentioned, in Soviet Russia gun controls were extremely tight and so were the crimes with firearms.
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Re: gun control

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Mon May 07, 2018 12:10 am

JimZipCode wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:48 pm
Gene wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:32 pm
What does the law say about them, Jim?
That they can't buy alcohol.
In my lifetime whether and 18-21 year old was an adult or not had very little to do with adultness and everything to do with politics.

In the not too distant past (WW2 & Korea) this group could win wars, drink alcohol, and buy guns. But, they couldn't vote.

Then, in the Vietnam era, it was deemed - primarily by Democrats - that if you were old enough to join the military and fight a war, you should be damn well able to vote. Not surprisingly, this was helpful to Democrat politicians. It was the best of times for 18-21 year olds.

Then, MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving) became a cause celebré and politicians decided that this age group should be able to join the military, fight wars, and purchase guns. But, they weren't allowed to purchase a beer. Not sure what political party this helped most.

Then, in the age of "getting tough on crime", when it looked politically expedient to a prosecutor even those younger than 18 could be charged as adults. This benefitted local politicians of both parties but looked best for "law & order" Republicans.

Now, 18-21 year olds can join the military, fight wars, and vote. But, they can't buy a beer and we're trying to enact laws to keep them from purchasing any type of fire arm. In essence, it's becoming almost the exact opposite of the WW2 generation.

So, who is and isn't an adult seems to have very little to do with anything other than what's expedient for politicians.
Mao wrote:Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party

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Re: gun control

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Mon May 07, 2018 3:56 pm

It's a little weird when people disparage "politicians" from doing something, as though the fact that they are politicians makes it silly. They're setting policy others can't.

For example, when adjacent states have a spread in drinking age, drunk driving deaths go up because more kids drive over to drink and kill somebody on their way home. Similarly, raising the drinking age to 21 reduced drunk driving deaths.

Drunk driving is a public health issue. An 18 year old's right to drink because he can both vote/serve is hypothetically fine, but people don't like having them crash into their cars/families. There's societal blowback people in the 70's/80's said "Enough of this shit." The gun equivalent seems to be on the table now.
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Re: gun control

Post by tough old man » Mon May 07, 2018 5:46 pm

are there any stats that show legal gun owners are an issue?
I'm pretty sure the fucks killing each other in Chicago ( remember that city? A Vegas massacre total every couple of months) dont have firearm owner or NRA cards.
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Re: gun control

Post by Fat Cat » Mon May 07, 2018 5:48 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 3:56 pm
It's a little weird when people disparage "politicians" from doing something, as though the fact that they are politicians makes it silly. They're setting policy others can't.

For example, when adjacent states have a spread in drinking age, drunk driving deaths go up because more kids drive over to drink and kill somebody on their way home. Similarly, raising the drinking age to 21 reduced drunk driving deaths.

Drunk driving is a public health issue. An 18 year old's right to drink because he can both vote/serve is hypothetically fine, but people don't like having them crash into their cars/families. There's societal blowback people in the 70's/80's said "Enough of this shit." The gun equivalent seems to be on the table now.
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Re: gun control

Post by Fat Cat » Mon May 07, 2018 5:50 pm

tough old man wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 5:46 pm
are there any stats that show legal gun owners are an issue?
I'm pretty sure the fucks killing each other in Chicago ( remember that city? A Vegas massacre total every couple of months) dont have firearm owner or NRA cards.
Nope. Congress has prohibited funds for research advocating gun control since 1996.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-ne ... 180955884/
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Re: gun control

Post by nafod » Mon May 07, 2018 6:15 pm

tough old man wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 5:46 pm
are there any stats that show legal gun owners are an issue?
Legal gun owners who fail to protect their weapons are definitely an issue.
Stolen guns pose a significant risk to community safety. Whether stolen from a gun store or an individual gun owner’s collection, these guns often head straight into the illegal underground gun market, where they are sold, traded, and used to facilitate violent crimes. Gun theft is not a minor problem in the United States. According to data from the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), during the four-year period from 2012 to 2015, nearly half a billion dollars worth of guns were stolen from individuals nationwide, amounting to an estimated 1.2 million guns. Twenty-two thousand guns were stolen from gun stores during this same period. A gun is stolen in the U.S. every two minutes.
Don’t believe everything you think.

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Re: gun control

Post by Fat Cat » Mon May 07, 2018 6:26 pm

So wait, if someone robs your house it's because you failed to protect it? Interdasting.
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Re: gun control

Post by nafod » Mon May 07, 2018 6:40 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 6:26 pm
So wait, if someone robs your house it's because you failed to protect it? Interdasting.
In most cases, it's because you're stupid.
In some instances, thieves stole firearms even after gun owners took precautions, like locking their weapons in a safe. But in most cases reviewed by The Trace and its partners, guns were taken from people who left their weapons in unlocked homes and cars, and in other places where they were easy to grab.
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Re: gun control

Post by Fat Cat » Mon May 07, 2018 7:19 pm

What good is a gun for home defense that isn't easy to grab?
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Re: gun control

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Mon May 07, 2018 8:36 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:19 pm
What good is a gun for home defense that isn't easy to grab?
Guns are normally stolen by burglars, who operate when you aren't at home or car. People who can't secure firearms when they aren't home probably shouldn't own them.
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Re: gun control

Post by tough old man » Mon May 07, 2018 8:47 pm

Its their constitutional right to own them.
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Re: gun control

Post by Fat Cat » Mon May 07, 2018 8:51 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:36 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:19 pm
What good is a gun for home defense that isn't easy to grab?
Guns are normally stolen by burglars, who operate when you aren't at home or car. People who can't secure firearms when they aren't home probably shouldn't own them.
OK thanks for clarifying that I don't have Constitutionally-protected rights because "thieves". I was under the mistaken impression that locking something up in my house was a means of securing it.
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Re: gun control

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Mon May 07, 2018 9:19 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:51 pm
Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:36 pm
Fat Cat wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 7:19 pm
What good is a gun for home defense that isn't easy to grab?
Guns are normally stolen by burglars, who operate when you aren't at home or car. People who can't secure firearms when they aren't home probably shouldn't own them.
OK thanks for clarifying that I don't have Constitutionally-protected rights because "thieves". I was under the mistaken impression that locking something up in my house was a means of securing it.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but your keyboard is spitting out tedious strawman nonsense. Plz check your settings.
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