IronGarm

My issue with the history of KB as described on the blog is that is minimizes the effort that anyone who trained in GS prior to the AKC. I realize I may be reading in to it, as this is a bothersome issue for me, for no rational reason. Those who did well (in relative terms) in those early meets were on the right path about needing to learn to relax and work as efficiently as possible. The tools to do that well were not part of the RKC, and I don't ever recall Pavel saying/ reading that hi tension/ hard style was a part of GS, likely just the opposite (the meet at Harvard).
The mechanics of using force efficiently hold true regardless if you are trying a 1RM or a max reps in a 10 minute set- this is why a good GS lifter can do lots of stupid human 1 RM tricks.

It becomes obvious to anyone who tries to do a 10 minute set that you have to pace yourself and I recall some early posts on DD about getting to 10 minutes first and then building up reps.

I trained with VF before the AKC was formed and have heard good things about his improved coaching from those who have gone to an AKC cert. His teachings have no doubt improved the quality of KB lifting in the US.

But anyone selling any form of KB lifting or any other exercise as magic or secret is full of shit. If you can find something you like to do, do it and don't get hurt- fantastic- there is the "secret (tm)".

Sean

And not to take anything away from AKC or VF, but both the Renegade and myself also recall Andrey Kuzmin recommending sets for time, several years ago, on the DD forum. It's not some new 'eureka' movement in the American Achyball scene.

Sooth.
But I think VF is more then timed sets, but WTH do I know?

Of course, I was just adding to Sean's post above.

I have no specific recollection of any such occurrence.

I simply do not recall.

This shit is long....

I beleive that the AKC way of doing Jerks and Snatches might be all of the things that Cate and crew have been saying, and I am playing more with the relaxed technique I learned a few years back when Makarov was a guest Instructor at one of my workshops. Yes I would love to attend a AKC cert someday, only an idiot think that Fed has nothing to offer, he's the best at Snatching and Jerking and can do all kinds of other "Holy Shit!" feats as well.

My post was to point out that the big push with KBs into the mainstream is not the "Russian" way but that the GyumJones/X-Fit approach is making all the big ground of late, bigger than Pavel, bigger than Fed.
And I think that is a good thing because I have always felt that the combined approach is better than the stand alone as far as KBs go.

You can sell me that your way is better for Snatching and Jerking is better, but you cant tell me that that is all you need.
Case in point, when my knee was hurting, jerks were a bad idea, so they had to be cut out for awhile because when I would feel better and go try them they agrivated the injury, so it's a good thing that I know more than those 2 lifts and assestance lifts.

It also takes a special person to center all their training around those 2 lifts and the GS swing and those who dont want to do that are no less hardcore either, they just find doing just that BORING and more like torture than working out.

My perspective is also of someone who makes thei living doing this, I train people everyday and have been doing this since 03. Except in a few cases it is always easier to get someone to press, swing and squat with a KB than it is to get them to snatche and jerk a KB, so I get these people training right away, I dont like spending most of an hour or a half hour teaching technique when the client is paying me to work them out and might not even give a fuck about KBs themselves. I perfer to do a progression and build from there, much like in Jujutsu. You show the technique a couple of times, make the main points and get them doing it, you add the smaller points as you go.

I am pretty good nowadays at getting people to do complicated things in a short time, but I still prefer the hit it and get it approach at first and add more as their ability and comprehention grows.

This is of coarse for those whos main thing is to get fit, I take a different approach when someone is there to learn KB technique, than we do alot more technical work, but that is maybe 15% of my income, the other 85% are there for personal training, they just happen to be introduced to the KB along with other tools and concepts.

And most who see them and know what they are will bring up "300" and X-fit, you rarely anymore hear them say " That's from that Pavel guy" or "Those are those Russian things"

As for the RKC v AKC thing, many of the AKC converts are people who went to the RKC 2 years after I initially did, and I will tell you the first time I went to the RKC in 03 was way etter than when I assisted in 04 when Cate first went. It was a more comprehensive, hands on coarse, alot of drills were presented and trained, more do thatn talk as well, teaching from example not lecture (except for Rob's boring "mindset" lecture). The 2nd time I went, they dumbed it down alot and even though the SRKCs and Pavel lectured more, they actually taught way less and I noticed the techniques were stiffer, they did not spend the time they did on differeing breathing methods (Real important for weezers like me) the pelvic tilt, they glossed over the jerk and the MP went from a turning your body slightly when pressing to save your shoulder, to stranding strict and doing shit that I know causes shoulder problems in many people.

The RKC became worse not better, when it was my turn to speak in the Instructors meeting, instead of sucking ass like many did, I layed out my concerns that there was more presenting and "Look what I can do." instead of hands on training. Brett retorted with "Well alot of these people want to be able to train with the different SRKCs." I knew then that the ship was heading for the ice, I just felt it could be saved for about a year. When it became more about personalities than actually learning to safely use and teach KBs.

Andrey was of course of right :). no doubt that VF has more to offer than timed sets- all the technical aspects of the lifts (just like the barbell snatch or clean and jerk) and the pacing, resting and other stuff and putting it all together is what makes it a challenge and VF's coaching (plus lots of hard work) has helped to improve some lifters numbers. And all of those learning can be applied to anyone doing KB lifiting.
That said- I would guess there are lots of people doing OLY lifts poorly that could lift more with proper coaching and hard work, but they are still getting some real benefit from doing OLY lifts poorly. Injury and long term wear and tear remain critical issues.

Sean

The stuff I got from 'Drey and what I recall from his site was always max reps or some percentage of max reps, not timed stuff. Not saying he didn't do the timed thing, too, but he did a lot based on reps.

That's correct.

Good points Sean.

BTW where you the guy in Sterling who after either droping the bel or something went from doing GS Snatches to whiping them out rapid fire over the fist?
If so that was awesome, my buddy who was there allways brings that up. "Dude was like Fuck IT! watch this shit!" he always says. The FUCK YEAH! moment of the day right up ther with Cate and Monty.

Let me help you out:

B.A.D.
Sgt. Major


Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 2533


PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: Reply with quote
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
Freki wrote:
Jim,


'drey and time? I have his first book and it's all about x to y number of reps or % of recent max for z number of sets and ASIT is to failure. Was the time stuff in the 2nd book? I'm not sayin' he didn't and I'm not sayin' VF was the first to think of it.


The born again Renegade recalls Andrey establishing timed sets too. I thought it was him, but then got to thinking it might have been Garm of all people. I still think Garm might have said something about it.

On the original MSN account, there was a good training thread when GS first popped up on best guesses on how to train for it. My recollection is it was generally agreed that a combo of max strength work with the barbell combined with the handleball training. This was even before Andrey found us or vice versa.


I have lots of email from him on the subject. He trained based on percentages of his RM and also pacing for time. If you think about it, once you can establish a pace for time, they are pretty much the same thing.

I recall pavel suggesting time ladders a while back as well.

Thanks for bolding that for all of us.

Why so snippety? Did that help to refresh your memory?

Negative. That dude was from the Northwest if I recall.

The stuff I got from 'Drey and what I recall from his site was always max reps or some percentage of max reps, not timed stuff. Not saying he didn't do the timed thing, too, but he did a lot based on reps.[/quote]

Andrey's books have stuff about timed sets, I have them somewhere but don't remember the exact details.

Not snippety. The focus of Drey's advice was percentage based. I asked him why once and he said it was mostly pointless to talk about pacing when no one could do much over 20 reps. That is why he stressed holds for time instead.

But as the bolded statement indicates. At some point it becomes the same thing.

I doubt he would anymore.

Yes he did.
He also made the point that you had to learn a more relaxed and different technique for GS. He wrote a big fucking section in the handbooks about it, in what I see was an attemp to help out those who wanted to do what he had no interest in anymore and was contrary to his bizz. I really think he was trying to be helpfull. The man had his great moments when he could be a selfless person.

All the recent Pavel hate is missplced on his knowledge, wich I am sorrey to see people who now decry him as a training authority were all amazed by his knowledge and ability to help people on the spot. The man is a awsome trainer, I will never be so dishonest as to say otherwise just because I find many of his bizz practices and people skills lacking or that I find his partner underhaded.

My only point being that timed sets are nothing new to us, and they should not be an 'ah hah!' moment to anyone. Conversely, I'm sure that there are folks competing at high levels who do rep based sets vs. time based sets; but I can't recall the poster who brought that to our attention here (some IG'er got to train with another high level GS-type).

Just another way of doing things, comradicals!

Yes, he is an awesome trainer.

Oddly enough, Rob Lawrence was delving into alot of the GS stuff with Andrey and other videos. I printed his training program out since I was curious.
He did percentages of max reps and waved them. Then for assistance he did roman chair situps, h2h heavy swings, kb front squats, and maybe one other thing I can't recall. I think the "waveness of load" thing was pushed by Pavel, and the percentage of max reps was from Andrey. Rob dropped the GS thing when he hit the wall and said it effected his strength in other lifts.

That's kind of the odd thing here. How come those guys in Greece are so goddamn strong? Must be the armwrestling.

It's just lifting metal balls and anything that gets heavy we used to lift with a fork lift in Pittsburgh. I like have knees, elbows, and a spine that works.

--Tom

Dylan,

One is known by the company they keep.

Lots of people left there for a reason. PT cannot be blameless in that. He could have stopped it if he wanted to stop it. Instead people got orders to stop doing what they felt they should be doing and teach swings and TGU's instead.

RKC certs were revoked and the record expunged. The bridge was set on fire by them, IMO.

So, please, spare us the swan song.

B.A.D.

Long one.......


Like Dylna, I train people everday for fitness. Most have never heard of a kb and either saw me working with soeone else or just decided to give it a try.

I teach sumo squats with kb & swings first, but only after looking at a BW squat. I will show a BW TGU and if they get it great if not I come back some other time to it. KBs are a tool, they are fun, my clients don't care about who is who or style (sorry Eric L) they want results.

When I teach swings I use the standard "hard" hip snap, arched back etc that Pavel teaches. Because it is something very defined, people can feel the hip snap they can feel the glutes & quad and they can exhale hard and they learn it quickly. After a few sessions I will have them ease back a bit a relax a little.

By the time the learn snatches I teach them both hard & relaxed. Hard if they are lifting near max for reps, relaxed if we are doing timed sets. I explain why they are different and the benefits of doing both.

In my own personal workouts I found that just doing GS does not give me he metcon or cv or whatever we want to call 45mins of doings kbs. I do DiLugio's circuit, mostly Smokin Ladders, a great kb & bw workout that will smoke almost anyone. I did 9 rounds Monday with 16k. I was pretty well worked over but had enough to teach MA & spar later.

10mins of snatches with 24k never affected my CV or muscle fatigue like the circuit. GS snatches trashes my grip/forearms. HR is up but no where near what it can get to in the middle of Providence or Newport.

Now I can't snatch the 32 for time and everyone says its a totally different game, but I don't need to snatch it for time. If I want to go with 32 I'll for for 10 -15 reps. Heavier & I'll go with 40k & struggle with 4 or per arm.

The other thing I found with GS is that my max power/strength dropped. I had gotten to where snatching the 40k for 5+5 while not easy was not a 5rm any more. After GS it was. Same with pressing. I did not like ETK and I trashed my elbows overdoing it, but I got to where I could press the 32 with the left for 5 tough reps, now I can barely get 3 left (weak arm).

I also can't get 10mins with 2x16 jerks after 6 to 7 mins various things are burning and my mind says fuck it but the CV/HR aren't that high. I know my technique needs work, but I don't see that going 10mins in jerks with 16 is going to be as physically demanding as a 45 minute circuit based workout. It's also boring as hell. I much prefer LCCJ and I'm starting to work on that more.

So for me GS isnt enough. Scott S said the same thing on the AKC forum. I do a circuit a couple of times/wk, GS stuff a few times and some barbells stuff, like power cleans or snatches with unloaded bar (learning....)

My.02

Has to be the armwrestling. Can't be because of the methods Valery's coach is using with those lifters. What's 7 jerks with a KB almost twice your weight anyway. Pfffffttt childs play. I mean those Greek lifters aren't even in the Beast Hall of Fame, what the hell do they know anyway. The AKC needs to start marketing armwrestling tables before DD does..