'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

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JohnDoe
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'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by JohnDoe » Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:39 pm

So the standards thread got me wondering about the 2 week training blocks I've seen a few places (EZ Strength, some other Pavel) as a means for working on two separate goals at once.

How dissimilar can blocks be? Could someone row huge volume for 2 weeks with a little strength maintenance work, then switch for lots of strength and a little maintenance rowing? What about yoga and strength, or yoga and LSD work? Or any other examples- I've just been doing YRG, now I'm back on the erg, and I've got access to a great gym.

Or does it need to be relatively similar emphases?

Or are alternating two week blocks utter nonsense?

The Issurin stuff I've seen is much more complex and kind of just looks like a normal year-long training plan in rowing at least, but I haven't read his book.

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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:04 pm

JohnDoe wrote:So the standards thread got me wondering about the 2 week training blocks I've seen a few places (EZ Strength, some other Pavel) as a means for working on two separate goals at once.

How dissimilar can blocks be? Could someone row huge volume for 2 weeks with a little strength maintenance work, then switch for lots of strength and a little maintenance rowing? What about yoga and strength, or yoga and LSD work? Or any other examples- I've just been doing YRG, now I'm back on the erg, and I've got access to a great gym.

Or does it need to be relatively similar emphases?

Or are alternating two week blocks utter nonsense?

The Issurin stuff I've seen is much more complex and kind of just looks like a normal year-long training plan in rowing at least, but I haven't read his book.
What's the goal(s)?

I know of only one block periodization resource that sets about describing how to combine disparate goals. (PM Syaigh) Generally, two week single focus alternating blocks don't work well. Alternating blocks as a style of continuous non-goal-oriented training is another matter. As with above, you won;t "build" appreciable strength in two week blocks, but you can develop strength endurance and speed in very short blocks of intensity work that pay off...so horses for courses.

Your success on combining them has as much to do with how different the goals are as it does with your execution. Depends on the goals.
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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:13 pm

As an aside, the endurance athletes I train keep strength work throughout their Base blocks and dial it back during in season training. Continuous gym work becomes more of the norm especially as you get older. Keep in mind, I'm talkign about minimum effective dose for my cyclists. two days a week squatting, core and upper back work off season. In build/realization blocks they are doing basically one big set a week of squats in the 5-10 rep range...this is purely maintenance and has negligible effect on recovery.

Something Fat Cat pointed out years ago that I just started to notice in older athletes is that this low intensity high frequency stuff (Pavel/EZ strumpf) does not play well with grappling, rowing, cycling or running. In a high frequency endurance training training environment (endurance MUST be high frequency) you really come to rely on variation of effort throughout the training week, Hard days/Easy Day/Medium Hard....Continuous auto-regged barbell work in the background seems to just fuck that up for everyone I tried it on. Personally I like that approach but it grinds a lot of peoiple down to the nub.

In addition to Syaigh's resource, I'd recommend you pick up Joel Friel's Fast after 50 book. It's really well done and simplified look at training with blocks.
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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by Herv100 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:21 pm

Joel jamieson is good on blocks. He said cardiac output(LSD) and maximal strength can go together well in a block because they don't compete with each other for resources too much.
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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:22 pm

Herv100 wrote:Joel jamieson is good on blocks. He said cardiac output(LSD) and maximal strength can go together well in a block because they don't compete with each other for resources too much.

That's exactly what I found. He explains it very elegantly I thought.
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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by climber511 » Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:45 pm

I train multiple goals constantly and have for years - but realized long ago that being mediocre is the price one pays for wanting it all at the same time. I train to be "ready" at this point (and really always have). What has proven to work best for me is 7 days a week of a little bit of everything (not blocks of any one thing) - strength - endurance - mobility - flexibility etc - a bit of each every day or within the weeks time frame. If the goal is to be in competition shape for something all the time - this isn't going to work - I don't think anything will really - Comp condition demands a focus on what you want. But what I do has put me into a position where I am within a month to six weeks of specialization to where I can be respectable in a comp in a variety of activities. I talked about this on my interview on the Super Strength Show (55) if anyone is interested. It seems to work out pretty well on the "general health" or "wellness" front also - with fewer overuse problems than when I did mostly a few things more seriously.

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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:55 pm

climber511 wrote:I train multiple goals constantly and have for years - but realized long ago that being mediocre is the price one pays for wanting it all at the same time. I train to be "ready" at this point (and really always have). What has proven to work best for me is 7 days a week of a little bit of everything (not blocks of any one thing) - strength - endurance - mobility - flexibility etc - a bit of each every day or within the weeks time frame. If the goal is to be in competition shape for something all the time - this isn't going to work - I don't think anything will really - Comp condition demands a focus on what you want. But what I do has put me into a position where I am within a month to six weeks of specialization to where I can be respectable in a comp in a variety of activities. I talked about this on my interview on the Super Strength Show (55) if anyone is interested. It seems to work out pretty well on the "general health" or "wellness" front also - with fewer overuse problems than when I did mostly a few things more seriously.

This kind of goes to what I think are solid ROE's for the mostly-training-occasionally-competing guy..Focus on either end of the spectrum, Max Strength/ Max Endurance (and SKILL, regardless of what the sport...always work the skills always always) . Avoid the middle until you're 10-6 weeks out. This isn't a block method as much as a conservation of effort strategy with the added benefit as you point out of staying away form overuse problems.
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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:15 pm

Issurin outlines complementary blocks in his books.

For most rec athletes, I feel it's just an over complicated way of doing things.m for a lifter, block Periodization becomes laughably similar to linear periodization

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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:25 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote: for a lifter, block Periodization becomes laughably similar to linear periodization

That's true...but by the same token, don't you think those who think very consciously about segmented training blocks do a better job of it even in soemthign as simple as strength training?

The analogy I have in my head is the way the Icelandic guys I trained with talked about cycling PED's as opposed to the way people in the US do it...Get on. Stay on. Add weight to bar. Over there, the discussion was always, what's your goal for the cycle? You're on for 12 week,s what weaknesses specifically are you fixing? how are you fixing them, how is the whole training system complementing that 3-4 month goal and how does that goal build towards your overall goal. (this was the discussi9on that convinced me I was not smart enough to take PED's)

I know that level of thing seems too complex for most of us, but the beauty of segmented training is the intention to narrow your focus in a methodical way.

The way I explain it to people is like project management...You are the GC of your own body construction project: Demo and then excavation, forming and then foundation, structural and framing, envelope and dry-in, cladding and windows, then painting and landscaping. I think it's probably pretty simple for most people but until you force yourself to think it through...it can be a bit of a confusing fuckstory as to what to do next.
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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by Chris McClinch » Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:50 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:I think it's probably pretty simple for most people but until you force yourself to think it through...it can be a bit of a confusing fuckstory as to what to do next.
Particularly if you're far enough from your goals that improving any quality will make you better. In theory, it should mean you get better from any intelligent program. In practice, it means you spin your wheels jumping from program to program, trying to improve everything at once, and get nowhere.

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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by Sangoma » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:51 am

Good article:


BLOCK PERIODIZATION
– A BREAKTHROUGH OR A MISCONCEPTION

The emergence of the so--called block periodization temporarily shook the traditional theory of training in the segment of periodization.
Criticism of classical periodization is not well founded methodologically and does not match the level of scientific debate about the problem (references
to old bibliographic sources, the sources in favour of block periodization, concealing everything that contradicts block periodization, deliberate misinterpretations...)
and from the standpoint of science may be rejected due to subjectivism. New periodization ideas are not based on scientific facts and
their application in practice is not possible if one wants to achieve a great result at the right time in the most important competition, which is the basic idea
of periodization according to classical theory. Thus, block periodization is rather a misconception than a breakthrough in sports training.
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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:00 pm

Sangoma wrote:Good article:


BLOCK PERIODIZATION
– A BREAKTHROUGH OR A MISCONCEPTION

The emergence of the so--called block periodization temporarily shook the traditional theory of training in the segment of periodization.
Criticism of classical periodization is not well founded methodologically and does not match the level of scientific debate about the problem (references
to old bibliographic sources, the sources in favour of block periodization, concealing everything that contradicts block periodization, deliberate misinterpretations...)
and from the standpoint of science may be rejected due to subjectivism. New periodization ideas are not based on scientific facts and
their application in practice is not possible if one wants to achieve a great result at the right time in the most important competition, which is the basic idea
of periodization according to classical theory. Thus, block periodization is rather a misconception than a breakthrough in sports training.
I think it's a rather bad article.well...not bad, just confusing unless you're steeped in this stuff.

It's objections are largely semantic rather than substantive.
The critique of the "scientific methods" is incomplete and unconvincing
It appear to be largely reactive to perceived slights to classic periodization (assumes facts no in evidence) ...the whole thing is an insider argument between wonks.

This is where "sports science" gets really tedious. Arguing things cant' work that are in fact SOP and working quite well regardless. Overly complicated assertions about the method when in fact, periodization is no mo0re complex than Planning...it's planning for change with an understanding of the basic moving pieces of change (transference of training, residual effect of different modalities). It's all a bit of a game. In reality, anyone planning to achieve a goal at any level of sport uses a form segmented training to narrow the focus...do what needs doing first. The way I explain it is

First fix what's broken-Rehab
Prepare to Build-Preparation (GPP is a word that carries too much freight but it's semi-applicable)
Build-Accumulation
Peak-Transmutation
Compete-Realization

and then start over again...
Fix what's broken-........

I don;t care how ineffective they found this notion to be in the lab back, this is pretty much the way you plan for projects. It's ordered logical progression. We can argue about the individual elements in each stage and the appropriateness of each to its particular sport/task....but the process is sound.
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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by climber511 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:17 pm

Prepare to Build-Preparation (GPP is a word that carries too much freight but it's semi-applicable)

This is where I think many (including myself in here) fail. Setting the stage so to speak is critical for long term success and continual gains. Skipping it will still allow one to gain but then gains will stop earlier than if you did the GPP and "got ready".

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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:38 pm

Was it written by charniga?

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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:11 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Was it written by charniga?
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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by JohnDoe » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:59 pm

I'd guess I'd been thinking mostly along the lines of the stuff Kreator was attempting and his phrase from some old thread about 'managing interference' or some such. Thanks for the input. It always seemed awfully similar to the way I'd set up a training season, but, again, I hadn't read it yet and it's pretty spendy on Amazon.

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Re: 'Block' Periodization & Dissimilarity

Post by Holland Oates » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:04 pm

JohnDoe wrote:I'd guess I'd been thinking mostly along the lines of the stuff Kreator was attempting and his phrase from some old thread about 'managing interference' or some such. Thanks for the input. It always seemed awfully similar to the way I'd set up a training season, but, again, I hadn't read it yet and it's pretty spendy on Amazon.
Kreator is a bad ass. That dude has done som legit cool shit.
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