Picking Corn.

Stick to training related posts.

Moderators: Dux, seeahill

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21132
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Tue May 03, 2016 3:12 pm

I like gay dogs too, having one that looks gay, and one that acts gay.

User avatar
tough old man
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7535
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Hell

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by tough old man » Tue May 03, 2016 3:52 pm

I believe it was Jack who told me a long time ago to "try it for 3 months and see if it works for me".

I tend to go back to that common sense.

Gay ass dog! Hardly. I have a boss who has a Chihuahua Pekinese mix. I want to stomp it every time it growls.
"I am the author of my own misfortune, I don't need a ghost writer" - Ian Dury


"Legio mihi nomen est, quia multi sumus."

JohnDoe
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by JohnDoe » Tue May 03, 2016 4:01 pm

I'm a little confused:

Am I picking corn out of the shit that's in my apple pie?

If so, do I eat the corn or the pie?

Do I keep the corn for seed and eat the pie on a cheat day?

Does the corn free shit pie have a gluten free crust?

Is it GMO corn or not? If so, have I broken any Monsanto patent laws with my picking?

Will the shit pie positively effect my gut flora and personal micro-biosphere?

Does the shit pie contain high fructose corn syrup and to what extent does that negate any corn picking?

So much to think about...

dead man walking
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6797
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:34 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by dead man walking » Tue May 03, 2016 4:18 pm

for strength, bob's link says:
It really is this simple:

Lift heavy weights three times a week for an hour. Eat lots of food and sleep as much as you can.
for endurance:
all of the above studies show remarkable consistency in the training distribution pattern selected by successful endurance athletes. About 80 % of training sessions are performed completely or predominantly at intensities under the first ventilatory turn point, or a blood-lactate concentration £2mM. The remaining ~20 % of sessions are distributed between training at or near the traditional lactate threshold (Zone 2), and training at intensities in the 90-100 %VO2max range, generally as interval training (Zone 3).
that's it. we're done here.

let's get back to posting pics--still waiting for the one of nipples treated with tea bags
Really Big Strong Guy: There are a plethora of psychopaths among us.

User avatar
johno
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7832
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:36 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by johno » Tue May 03, 2016 4:21 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:...
Fuck Johno, he loves gay dogs
...

ETC
HATESPEECH! Trigger Warning, please.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue May 03, 2016 4:39 pm

dead man walking wrote:for strength, bob's link says:
It really is this simple:

Lift heavy weights three times a week for an hour. Eat lots of food and sleep as much as you can.
for endurance:
all of the above studies show remarkable consistency in the training distribution pattern selected by successful endurance athletes. About 80 % of training sessions are performed completely or predominantly at intensities under the first ventilatory turn point, or a blood-lactate concentration £2mM. The remaining ~20 % of sessions are distributed between training at or near the traditional lactate threshold (Zone 2), and training at intensities in the 90-100 %VO2max range, generally as interval training (Zone 3).
that's it. we're done here.

let's get back to posting pics--still waiting for the one of nipples treated with tea bags
Where is the Turkish get up?
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
johno
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7832
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:36 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by johno » Tue May 03, 2016 4:57 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
...suboptimal bullshit because it's easier t pretend you're song something than to take yourself through the process of figuring out what works.

In the case of something like p90x maybe good enough is good enough, but with crossfit it's just horrid and wrong headed. My example of choosing Tkd as a self defense system is probably most apt ...
It's good enough until you need it for your stated purpose. Then it's useless.
Personally, although grappling is a very good choice for unarmed self defense, my odds are almost nil of ever needing to choke a bitch. But that's what initially attracted me to the sport (its effectiveness). Many more factors now keep me in the game: "aliveness" in training (=lack of boredom), social factors, sweaty hugs, etc.

So, we humans routinely lie to/delude ourselves. Part of the journey is uncovering the lies. When the lies are all gone, I'm not sure what's left.

Crossfit is an excellent example...beyond suboptimal to antithetical, horrid & wrongheaded to many participants' health/fitness goals. They come for the eliteness, but stay for the hot chicks, social posturing, and douchebaggery. And bragging about injuries. Cross fitters are actually getting what they want, but just lie about it & call it "elite fitness."
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue May 03, 2016 5:10 pm

johno wrote:So, we humans routinely lie to/delude ourselves. Part of the journey is uncovering the lies. When the lies are all gone, I'm not sure what's left.
Freedom. Knowledge. maybe even Peace.

But what we're talkin about in part is cognitive bias . Eliminating cognitive bias for me means removing variables. I recall many conversations over the years talking specifically about goal oriented endeavors,

So just squat.bench dead?

So, you're just gonna ride long for 3 months? that's it?

What do you mean race into shape?

You ever get tired of eating the same 5 things over and over again (to be fair it's more like 11 or 12).

I've given a lot of answers, the reality is probably that at the core I'm extremely conservative. I have learned to trust a few simple tools and every time I stray too far from a measured relentless and almost OCD approach...I get SHIT results. I get confused, I get slower, weaker, worse and the worst of all possible worlds..I have no idea why.

So when I see people sychophanting over guru whiz bang shit for X reason...that they then try whiz bang shit for 20 minutes one day and then within a week or two of riffing on the whiz bang shit with their own unique melange ...they then abandon it entirely and declare victory .I have a hard time taking anything they have to say on the subject seriously. Don't get me wrong, I love the ideas, I've paid for the "idea books" of many of these people. I love trying those ideas....(I prefer if someone else does) But anything less than a 3 month full time run at a thing...you end up knowing less not more.


Something something Bruce Lee's 10,000 punches vs. one punch 10,000 times.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
Bram
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5690
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:38 am

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Bram » Tue May 03, 2016 9:06 pm

dead man walking wrote:for strength, bob's link says:
It really is this simple:

Lift heavy weights three times a week for an hour. Eat lots of food and sleep as much as you can.
for endurance:
all of the above studies show remarkable consistency in the training distribution pattern selected by successful endurance athletes. About 80 % of training sessions are performed completely or predominantly at intensities under the first ventilatory turn point, or a blood-lactate concentration £2mM. The remaining ~20 % of sessions are distributed between training at or near the traditional lactate threshold (Zone 2), and training at intensities in the 90-100 %VO2max range, generally as interval training (Zone 3).
Hah, that is it. Nice post. Would cover 90%+ of the reasons for working out.
Be careful with your words, for someone will agree with them. Be careful of your conduct, for someone will imitate it.

User avatar
Beer Jew
Sgt. Major
Posts: 3282
Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:35 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Beer Jew » Tue May 03, 2016 9:12 pm

Guru's are gurus because they can market effectively. No other reason.

Ross E isn't a guru. He's an athlete/coach. Ed Coan isn't a guru. He's an athlete/weirdo.

Pavel is a guru. How do I know? Because he fucking pushes it in your face constantly.

Now regarding what's what - Pavel's shit is more out there because he makes sure it's out there, with ad copy coming out his ears. But who's actually got results training the powerlifts with Pavel? And I'm talking results beyond the shit that any of us could do with our hands behind our back. You know what I'm talking about - anyone can take anyone to a 400lb deadlift. How many people has Pavel taken from 500-600? 600-700? 700+?

Can anyone point me to a single person that Pavel/Ferris/Steve Maxwell/"Insert any Guru" who's consistently trained anyone long enough to really turn them into a master?

That's how I know their shit ain't worth any more shit than anyone else's - the fact that they're paying some marketer to convince me it does mean something doesn't add value to their shit.

IMO, if you want to separate the good from the bad (and let's focus on powerlifting here), I want evidence that the coach is;

1. Successful in the sport. Boris Sheyko is Boris Sheyko. No one else is. I've yet to meet anyone else who instinctively knew how to get someone really fucking strong, without spending time in the trenches, understanding how things feel.

2. I like to see forum posts that at least jive with my general way of thinking. We've all done this too long to think there's anything "new" here, but there are different ways of looking at things.

3. I'd like to see at least one if not several examples of people they've trained beyond the beginner/intermediate level. Here's an example of British lifters who have zero ad-copy, but I'd instinctively trust on anything lifting related long before I would read an ounce of Pavel's twaddle;

Aaron Hull - Rare in that he can back up what he says with both scientific knowledge, and results. Totals approx. 9xbw@100kg. Trained at least 6 people I know of, all naturals, to elite levels.

Tom Martin - Multiple British and World Champion, will try his methods on himself for at least several months, before reporting back on forums etc. how they worked. Totals 9-10xbw@93-100kg.

Tom Hibbert - Ridiculously strong in his own right (winner of UK Strongest Natural u90kg), he squats something like 600 for 5 at 198. Trained at least one person I know of, to within 20kg of the log press world record.

You know who I'd trust with conditioning? Ross Enamait. I don't know enough about conditioning to scientifically assess his methods, but I don't need to, because I can see they work, in the full disclosure videos he posts of himself actually doing the things he espouses. He also doesn't suggest random bullshit. He say's - "Hey, here's something I've tried, and as you can see it worked. Give it a try too".

Contrast that with Pavel who'll say "Hey - here's a super secret workout that I tried with some Spetnaz soldiers that I can't tell you anything about. I can't say exactly what the workout does, but it looks good, and you're a gullible cunt, so try it!"

The other tell is in the way they push their suggestion. Any of the successful lifters above will post on a forum (or via PM if you're paying for coaching) and will say "having evaluated your individual situation, this is what I believe will work. Try it out, and if it doesn't, we can adjust on the fly based on my extensive S+C knowledge and experience".

Pavel/Ferris/SM/Etc.... The fact that they push suggestions as "THIS WILL WORK IF YOU'RE NOT A PUSSY" with no mention of past training history, injuries, imbalances, leverages, recovery etc. demonstrates that they're no more knowledgeable than anyone else spouting the same shit.

I feel like with discussions like this, IGX has it's own version of Godwin's Law. It's only a matter of time before some cunt posts "Dan John said....everything works for six weeks....."

User avatar
Bram
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5690
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:38 am

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Bram » Tue May 03, 2016 9:29 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
So how do YOU parse this stuff for yourself?
I feel I have a decent understanding of movement, if an exercise doesn't look like it contains bad mechanics, then I will adopt it.

Surfing, yoga, BJJ, whatever can all give me feedback on whether the exercise provided utility if I'm looking for sports benefits.

I ignore virtually all programming methodology besides my own, unless I'm stuck on something (I can't get stronger, can't get faster, etc. ). Then I have to look and see what's out there. I'm not patient with that, depending on the application I might last a month without seeing anything before I abandon it.

I quit HIIT after one session. Seemed idiotic and dangerous if you didn't have a steady state base.

There's a lot of bullshit. A lot of famous trainer bullshit too. If someone is known more for their results with others than themselves as a personality, that can be a good sign.

If anything I'm guilty of disliking fitness industry personalities and discarding what they have to say out of hand.
Be careful with your words, for someone will agree with them. Be careful of your conduct, for someone will imitate it.

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue May 03, 2016 9:42 pm

Bram wrote:I feel I have a decent understanding of movement, if an exercise doesn't look like it contains bad mechanics, then I will adopt it.

Surfing, yoga, BJJ, whatever can all give me feedback on whether the exercise provided utility if I'm looking for sports benefits.
Thing one is confusing to me, I only adopt anything if I KNOW it works, seen it work, understand HOW it works. Even then, this process is prone to magical thinking. (JM presses?, fuck that shit, only people ive ever seen doing them are people who don;t need them becuase they already have freaky benches).

Thing two is where it gets interesting. You can look through dozens and dozens of papers and see, they mis-attribute effects from one thing to another thing. This is the trickiest one of all and the thing I think we are least good at doing and this is the place that results in magical thinking.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
Bram
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5690
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:38 am

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Bram » Tue May 03, 2016 10:00 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Bram wrote:I feel I have a decent understanding of movement, if an exercise doesn't look like it contains bad mechanics, then I will adopt it.

Surfing, yoga, BJJ, whatever can all give me feedback on whether the exercise provided utility if I'm looking for sports benefits.
Thing one is confusing to me, I only adopt anything if I KNOW it works, seen it work, understand HOW it works. Even then, this process is prone to magical thinking. (JM presses?, fuck that shit, only people ive ever seen doing them are people who don;t need them becuase they already have freaky benches).

Thing two is where it gets interesting. You can look through dozens and dozens of papers and see, they mis-attribute effects from one thing to another thing. This is the trickiest one of all and the thing I think we are least good at doing and this is the place that results in magical thinking.
Yeah, I'm open to new exercises, but I rarely change my base program lately. I may do a few new variants, but that new quad plyometric I saw on youtube is only currently replacing another quad plyometric I already trust. Part of enjoying exercise is doing new things, so I doing mind having duds.

The magical thinking is a huge problem, but it runs both ways. Oftentimes I'll exclude things based on just the delusion that I don't need it. Look at most of my training log and you'll see magical thinking and abandoning the base regularly, with a lot of flailing because of it.
Be careful with your words, for someone will agree with them. Be careful of your conduct, for someone will imitate it.

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue May 03, 2016 10:41 pm

Bram wrote:The magical thinking is a huge problem, but it runs both ways. Oftentimes I'll exclude things based on just the delusion that I don't need it. Look at most of my training log and you'll see magical thinking and abandoning the base regularly, with a lot of flailing because of it.
Absolutely true that it ruins both way.

I used to feel like the DL was such an essential tool... after ditching it for throwing I realize conventional deads probably held me back more than any other exercise. OTOH, after a little experimentation with pulls, weighted jumps and regualr jumps, the TBDL may be the best damn all around compromise exercise (and area I think SM is absolutely on to soemthing) but magical thinking about the squat will preclude it form getting it's due.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

dead man walking
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6797
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:34 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by dead man walking » Tue May 03, 2016 11:31 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote: I used to feel like the DL was such an essential tool... after ditching it for throwing I realize conventional deads probably held me back more than any other exercise. OTOH, after a little experimentation with pulls, weighted jumps and regualr jumps, the TBDL may be the best damn all around compromise exercise (and area I think SM is absolutely on to soemthing) but magical thinking about the squat will preclude it form getting it's due.
can you say more about the evidence behind value of trap bar deads.

i see two things in your statement:

1) your experience, i.e. sample of one.

2) your view that squat is irrationally valued--that view being based on what?

not being a dick, i hope. i'm curious. i'd be happy to swap out two lifts for one. given my medium-low geriatric standards, perhaps that would be an intelligent adjustment.
Really Big Strong Guy: There are a plethora of psychopaths among us.

Boris
Top
Posts: 1519
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:54 am

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Boris » Wed May 04, 2016 12:00 am

This might sound arrogant, but I've been doing the things I do for long enough now that I've come to value my own opinions and experiences. Those experiences are varied and profound enough, I think, to give me a pretty good filter now to view how things will impact my own training and the training of my athletes. Beyond those two realms (myself and my athletes) - I make few claims at expertise.

I try to keep an open mind with healthy dose of skepticism. Not totally off-topic, but you'd be surprised how many people think that some sports are largely untainted by PEDs... I never assume anyone is, but I never assume they are NOT either... You have to be open to the idea, but you have to be open to the idea that it's all bullshit too. That's the hard thing. In the immortal words of .38 Special, you got to "Hold on Loosely".

edit: and btw, squats are f'ing magical. You don't think so? F U.

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21132
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Wed May 04, 2016 1:53 am

Someone's got to be the first to do something.

Hold my beer

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed May 04, 2016 3:33 am

dead man walking wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote: I used to feel like the DL was such an essential tool... after ditching it for throwing I realize conventional deads probably held me back more than any other exercise. OTOH, after a little experimentation with pulls, weighted jumps and regualr jumps, the TBDL may be the best damn all around compromise exercise (and area I think SM is absolutely on to soemthing) but magical thinking about the squat will preclude it form getting it's due.
can you say more about the evidence behind value of trap bar deads.

i see two things in your statement:

1) your experience, i.e. sample of one.

2) your view that squat is irrationally valued--that view being based on what?

not being a dick, i hope. i'm curious. i'd be happy to swap out two lifts for one. given my medium-low geriatric standards, perhaps that would be an intelligent adjustment.
All y'all motherfuckers need to get something straight, no one should take issue with armchair science... We are all involved in an experiment with poor controls and low sample sizes run by biased researchers.

What I took and take issue with is chugging yards of guru cock when most people never run their ideas to ground. The times I have, I've been extraordinarily disappointed...almost always finding a better way out there in a more based and rational form.

Second. Squats are fucking magic. Full stop. No doubt. The fact I'm that convinced makes me skeptical...so, let's consider the opposite, perhaps squats are just squats and for some application something else is better? TBDL fits the bill as a contender IME which is limited to me, my athletes and the people I look to for guidance. Ryan Vierra is one such guy who pointed me in that direction when I did a practice with him. He suggested I drop deads and use short range TBDL jumps and pulls off blocks combined with box jumps...( post activation potentiation ...there some legit science there) I heard similar things from Gary John, brother of well known personality.

I gave this a run for a period of 6 months. Whether it was dropping deads or the combo of TBDL and jumps, my vertical went up, my throws we t longer and I felt much more explosive on the last pop on a throw or jump. The could be biAs but I watched a similar pattern with my training partner (an oly lifter) who is very explosive. His fast twitch is really twitchy (scientific term) and yet he saw the same results Ryan predicted.

It's not determinative but it told me the tool was worth learning.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
Holland Oates
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 14137
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:32 am
Location: GAWD'S Country
Contact:

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Holland Oates » Wed May 04, 2016 5:59 am

Gawddamnit I don't want to drop conventional deads. But I'm looking to make some major improvements on my throwing over the next 4 months. We may need to chat.
Southern Hospitality Is Aggressive Hospitality

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed May 04, 2016 6:20 am

Holland Oates wrote:Gawddamnit I don't want to drop conventional deads. But I'm looking to make some major improvements on my throwing over the next 4 months. We may need to chat.
Your pull is very different from mine, much more vertical, leg and hip..Might not mess you up in the same way... On the flip side, you might get carryover to the DL from a trap bar .., ever run that to ground? I'm just surprised the DL doesn't fuck with grappling but it's outta my wheelhouse.

What
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
Holland Oates
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 14137
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:32 am
Location: GAWD'S Country
Contact:

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Holland Oates » Wed May 04, 2016 6:23 am

I'm not doing enough lifting or grappling to affect each other.

Honestly I use my feet so much from the bottom squats affect my grappling more than deads.

Never really ran tarp bar deads but I may give them a go.
Southern Hospitality Is Aggressive Hospitality

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed May 04, 2016 6:40 am

Fuck.... I dunno. It's a ymmv thing, but the geometry is less low back intensive and it's so much like a jump that it translates immediately from my experience.

There's a whole tarp bar dead tnread with voices on either side.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
Holland Oates
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 14137
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:32 am
Location: GAWD'S Country
Contact:

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Holland Oates » Wed May 04, 2016 7:05 am

This may be a winter project. Right now I'm cruising so I hate to change anything.
Southern Hospitality Is Aggressive Hospitality

User avatar
SubClaw
Top
Posts: 1787
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by SubClaw » Wed May 04, 2016 7:55 am

Holland Oates wrote:Gawddamnit I don't want to drop conventional deads. But I'm looking to make some major improvements on my throwing over the next 4 months. We may need to chat.
Explore the ROM doing prying goblet squats and goat bag swings, and get strong doing TBDLs. You could do much worse.

Add some pull ups and dips and you'll have a nice all-around template.

User avatar
Holland Oates
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 14137
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:32 am
Location: GAWD'S Country
Contact:

Re: Picking Corn.

Post by Holland Oates » Wed May 04, 2016 8:13 am

SubClaw wrote:
Holland Oates wrote:Gawddamnit I don't want to drop conventional deads. But I'm looking to make some major improvements on my throwing over the next 4 months. We may need to chat.
Explore the ROM doing prying goblet squats and goat bag swings, and get strong doing TBDLs. You could do much worse.

Add some pull ups and dips and you'll have a nice all-around template.
LOL

Gold star trolling. I've actually used all of those things but mainly as a warm up/extra workout during my hardcore gym time.
Southern Hospitality Is Aggressive Hospitality

Post Reply