Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by TomFurman » Thu May 12, 2016 3:34 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Ferris remains a terrible interviewer. His weird little agendas damage the flow
Tim clarifying Chris' posts bothers me. I'd just rather hear a lecture from Coach Sommers.
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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by aussie luke » Thu May 12, 2016 3:37 pm

dead man walking wrote:
two 30r20 workouts a week sounds brutal, assuming you achieve max hr toward the end of the session. have you considered medium intervals (1,500-2500 mtr) at 5k pace? that's similar to caviston's level 2 session, typically referred to as at intervals in rowing parlance?
Not tested my HR but it's a pretty intense session.

I've been following the Pete beginner plan for 12 weeks and the long intervals were by far my absolute least favourite workouts. I just can't seem to pace myself through them without going too hard and dying.

Just last week I decided to take a break from the plan and follow my own idea - as I have no intention of racing. (And my last 2k test was like 7:40-something!)

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by aussie luke » Thu May 12, 2016 3:46 pm

dead man walking wrote:aussie luke,

here's an erg based power workout. the author often writes about strength training for rowing--he may have worked with canadian nat'l team. the programs of his i've seen are pretty typical, squat, dead, row, etc.

https://peakcentre.wordpress.com/2009/0 ... rformance/
Interesting idea. I might have to try the test, if not the workouts. Maybe get a benchmark of where I am now and see if the 30r20 training helps.

If nothing else I am definitely seeing some positive body comp improvements from it. And it's helping with running fitness too.

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by JohnDoe » Thu May 12, 2016 5:14 pm

One of the more interesting assessments is to compare the ratios between a 10" peak power test: 1' avg power: 2k: 6k: 70' test. Theoretically you could build a custom plan for each athlete, but by and large power is way higher than the longer tests, which makes sense since that level of aerobic fitness takes years to build, and you end with everyone on a base-building plan anyway.

McNeely is a polarizing figure. I spoke with him once and he said that once guys can hit the strength numbers, they start working out circuit style, but with weights that correspond to handle and footplate forces, so something like a leg press at 38 reps/minute with only 100 lbs. Always thought it was odd, since the boat is for the repeats and hard work.

Incidentally, the 2012 gold medal single sculler trains lots of base on his bike, to the point where he missed some races because of accidents; the 2004 and 2008 gold medal single sculler is a nationally ranked Norwegian XC skier; the 2000 gold medal sculler took a few years off and was a grinder on America's cup boats. A bit of transferability. There's also a US training center/club in VT that serves as a XC training center all winter. They'll be in the quad at Rio.

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by JasonC » Fri May 13, 2016 2:30 am

Bram wrote:"Keep your heart rate between 120/130-150 for 30-90 minutes."

"The heart is a dumb muscle, do whatever you like: skills practice, swim, etc."

Good stuff.
Read this, read Shaggy's piece, and then tried it out in my back yard, trying to keep my HR in its Maffetone MAF range. Fun! Did bear crawls, pullups, cartwheels, burpees and free squats, club moves, and some Martone SHOT juggling at what felt like a comically low intensity--but still kept spiking my HR too high. I'll keep working on it and develop a feel for staying in my range. It's great to have another modality besides just running, HH, and ruck walks.

Insight: The key seems to be Len Schwartz's "verticality" rule. Just a few free squats or pullups (or even cartwheels!) bumps me right past my MAF. Burpees work more slowly. Clubs work even more slowly. SHOT juggling depends on height, with a lot of added HR action if I'm moving some bodyweight around too (e.g. lifting leg to throw the shot under it or dipping body down so I can heave it behind my back and over the shoulder).
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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by ledfistaco » Fri May 13, 2016 10:51 am

This thread has been great.

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by Sangoma » Fri May 13, 2016 11:56 am

Not to be a snob, but I want to mention that the heart is anything but "dumb" muscle. If it was this thread would not exist. Cardio-vascular fitness is so complex and is determined by many organ systems, and reducing it to the heart alone is blatantly incorrect. It's just that HR of 120-140 happens to reflect the intensity that produces most optimal adaptations of the interplay of hormonal, peripheral and central vascular, respiratory, CNS, biochemical and - yes, myocardial - factors.
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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by dead man walking » Fri May 13, 2016 11:09 pm

some of you guys seem devoted to maffeton's protocol. why?

am i correct in thinking that during training he doesn't want you to exceed the hr his formula gives you?

the problem with that approach is, as your body warms up and loses fluid, your hr climbs. so if you limit your training based on hr, your work rate will have to go down as the session extends.

with the advent of power meters and garmins, endurance athletes can train based on work rate--i.e. watts, miles per hour--and maintain a consistent pace, even if hr "drifts" out of the prescribed zone.

in most stuff i read, the trainers expect hr to drift modestly and don't instruct athletes to slow down to stay in the prescribed range, or zone.
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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by aussie luke » Sat May 14, 2016 12:49 am

dead man walking wrote:some of you guys seem devoted to maffeton's protocol. why?

am i correct in thinking that during training he doesn't want you to exceed the hr his formula gives you?

the problem with that approach is, as your body warms up and loses fluid, your hr climbs. so if you limit your training based on hr, your work rate will have to go down as the session extends.

with the advent of power meters and garmins, endurance athletes can train based on work rate--i.e. watts, miles per hour--and maintain a consistent pace, even if hr "drifts" out of the prescribed zone.

in most stuff i read, the trainers expect hr to drift modestly and don't instruct athletes to slow down to stay in the prescribed range, or zone.

I tried running with the Maffetone method a few years ago with a HR monitor. It was fucking ridiculous. Spent a month getting nowhere, still had to walk half the time or run so slowly I would actually be faster walking. Felt like a waste of time, didn't develop any running SKILL or real practice. I only gave it a month because it was so fucking ridiculous and who knew how much longer I'd have to go on doing the same thing before I could actually go for a decent run.

Skip forward a few years of just KB training and I decided to start running again. This time I ditched the monitor and just followed a beginner walk-run plan. In a couple of months I was running 30+ minutes non stop several times a week at a decent pace and my fitness was improving every week. I actually got reasonably good at running well, no injuries, my easy, sustainable, conversational pace gradually improving week to week, as was distance.

Couldn't care less what my HR is doing to be honest.

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by Ripe Turd » Sat May 14, 2016 1:54 pm

aussie luke wrote:
dead man walking wrote:some of you guys seem devoted to maffeton's protocol. why?

am i correct in thinking that during training he doesn't want you to exceed the hr his formula gives you?

the problem with that approach is, as your body warms up and loses fluid, your hr climbs. so if you limit your training based on hr, your work rate will have to go down as the session extends.

with the advent of power meters and garmins, endurance athletes can train based on work rate--i.e. watts, miles per hour--and maintain a consistent pace, even if hr "drifts" out of the prescribed zone.

in most stuff i read, the trainers expect hr to drift modestly and don't instruct athletes to slow down to stay in the prescribed range, or zone.

I tried running with the Maffetone method a few years ago with a HR monitor. It was fucking ridiculous. Spent a month getting nowhere, still had to walk half the time or run so slowly I would actually be faster walking. Felt like a waste of time, didn't develop any running SKILL or real practice. I only gave it a month because it was so fucking ridiculous and who knew how much longer I'd have to go on doing the same thing before I could actually go for a decent run.

Skip forward a few years of just KB training and I decided to start running again. This time I ditched the monitor and just followed a beginner walk-run plan. In a couple of months I was running 30+ minutes non stop several times a week at a decent pace and my fitness was improving every week. I actually got reasonably good at running well, no injuries, my easy, sustainable, conversational pace gradually improving week to week, as was distance.

Couldn't care less what my HR is doing to be honest.
Funny you say that Luke. When I go out and run without a HR monitor on, I gas out super fast. I can run longer with a HR monitor on, without having to slow down or start walking because I went too fast too soon. I mostly stay around 140-155 BPM when going easy.

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by aussie luke » Sat May 14, 2016 2:17 pm

Ripe Turd wrote:
aussie luke wrote:
dead man walking wrote:some of you guys seem devoted to maffeton's protocol. why?

am i correct in thinking that during training he doesn't want you to exceed the hr his formula gives you?

the problem with that approach is, as your body warms up and loses fluid, your hr climbs. so if you limit your training based on hr, your work rate will have to go down as the session extends.

with the advent of power meters and garmins, endurance athletes can train based on work rate--i.e. watts, miles per hour--and maintain a consistent pace, even if hr "drifts" out of the prescribed zone.

in most stuff i read, the trainers expect hr to drift modestly and don't instruct athletes to slow down to stay in the prescribed range, or zone.

I tried running with the Maffetone method a few years ago with a HR monitor. It was fucking ridiculous. Spent a month getting nowhere, still had to walk half the time or run so slowly I would actually be faster walking. Felt like a waste of time, didn't develop any running SKILL or real practice. I only gave it a month because it was so fucking ridiculous and who knew how much longer I'd have to go on doing the same thing before I could actually go for a decent run.

Skip forward a few years of just KB training and I decided to start running again. This time I ditched the monitor and just followed a beginner walk-run plan. In a couple of months I was running 30+ minutes non stop several times a week at a decent pace and my fitness was improving every week. I actually got reasonably good at running well, no injuries, my easy, sustainable, conversational pace gradually improving week to week, as was distance.

Couldn't care less what my HR is doing to be honest.
Funny you say that Luke. When I go out and run without a HR monitor on, I gas out super fast. I can run longer with a HR monitor on, without having to slow down or start walking because I went too fast too soon. I mostly stay around 140-155 BPM when going easy.
I run with my iPhone in my SPIbelt and I use mapmyrun set to give voice feedback every Km - I know then by the first km exactly what pace I'm at and adjust from there. If my first km is less than 5 minutes I know in going to hard. Once I know that I can pretty much adjust from there and somehow tend to stay at the same pace. I know by the 2nd km if I slowed down too much.

Just about every run I've done this year has been between 5:10 and 5:30min/km

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by Holland Oates » Sat May 14, 2016 7:47 pm

I've done both. Sometimes you just need to run because you are out of shape/out of practice. HR work has been described as patience training. Build your base get to where you can run a decent pace for 2 or 3 miles then add the heart monitor. When I did this my times dropped by 5 minutes on 2 miles and damn over 10 minutes on my 3 mile runs but after about a month or two of using it I was running as fast and sometimes faster times at very decreased perceived level of effort.

I got the point that when I'd hit a down hill section is almost have to sprint to keep my heart rate from dropping down to or below 100 bpm.
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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by Wild Bill » Wed May 18, 2016 7:32 am

What do you think about such idea (popular in some sircles) - doing some work in the begining of a minute, then rest to the end of minute, ... etc.

For example:
10 sec pushups
50 sec rest
10 sec squats
50 sec rest
10 sec..
50 sec rest
...


and such work during 40-50 min.

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by SubClaw » Wed May 18, 2016 7:48 am

Wild Bill wrote:What do you think about such idea (popular in some sircles) - doing some work in the begining of a minute, then rest to the end of minute, ... etc.

For example:
10 sec pushups
50 sec rest
10 sec squats
50 sec rest
10 sec..
50 sec rest
...


and such work during 40-50 min.
I'd much rather do Bryce Lane's 50/20.

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by Boris » Wed May 18, 2016 12:24 pm

I forgot about this, but it's actually not bad for people who like boring and monotonous (which I do).

The Beep Test w. kettlebell snatches: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/2008/11/mor ... -work.html

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by tonkadtx » Wed May 18, 2016 1:51 pm

So, I have a question. Obviously, some is better than none, but in the realm of beneficial adaptation is 30 minutes worth it? It seems like the consensus is that real beneficial adaptation starts at 40/45 minutes.

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed May 18, 2016 2:36 pm

tonkadtx wrote:So, I have a question. Obviously, some is better than none, but in the realm of beneficial adaptation is 30 minutes worth it? It seems like the consensus is that real beneficial adaptation starts at 40/45 minutes.
An extensive review of the literature would result in the opposite conclusion with regard to HEALTH. For performance it's less clear but I would say by no means settled. But for overall health and longevity, a half hour a day 3 to 5 days a week is probably the biggest ROI.

The other thing to consider is, while there's no doubt that long duration cardio is irreplaceable, shorter duration mixed intensity work is still pretty damn useful. Optimum for performance and optimum for overall health and then optimum given the constraints of an individual may all be wildly different things. A half hour a day a couple two three days a week is nothin to scoff at.
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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by Boris » Thu May 19, 2016 3:08 pm

tonkadtx wrote:So, I have a question. Obviously, some is better than none, but in the realm of beneficial adaptation is 30 minutes worth it? It seems like the consensus is that real beneficial adaptation starts at 40/45 minutes.
"real beneficial adaptation".... for what?

I know I'm that guy now, but goals matter. For general health, if you're doing 30 solid minutes a few times a week (let alone 5-7), that's pretty damn good. It won't get you ready for the tour de france or a marathon, but is it worth it? Yeah, it's worth it.

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu May 19, 2016 4:00 pm

Let me clarify.

I feel better with longer sessions (thing 45-60 min) 2-3x weekly than I do with 30 minute session, same frequency. However, 60+ min on a machine is tedious.

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by Turdacious » Fri May 27, 2016 3:50 pm

tonkadtx wrote:So, I have a question. Obviously, some is better than none, but in the realm of beneficial adaptation is 30 minutes worth it? It seems like the consensus is that real beneficial adaptation starts at 40/45 minutes.
That's what I found. Using a HRM to keep my HR in zone 2 for 45-60 minutes seemed to make things even more beneficial. Felt better and didn't feel tired from teh LSD at all.
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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by WildGorillaMan » Fri May 27, 2016 3:55 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Let me clarify.

I feel better with longer sessions (thing 45-60 min) 2-3x weekly than I do with 30 minute session, same frequency. However, 60+ min on a machine is tedious.
Netflix, an iPad and a place to lean it while you ambulate. Problem solved.

I still get triggered when I think of the dryland winter training for rowing: staring at the second hand clock tick by in a hot, breezeless room while I worked away on a C2, keeping my HR in zone for 60 minutes.
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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by milosz » Fri May 27, 2016 4:16 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Ferris remains a terrible interviewer. His weird little agendas damage the flow
This is a problem with a lot of podcasts - it's neither an interview nor a conversation but two people talking past each other trying to drop their own stories/info/marketing spiel.

Rogan is good at the conversation between equals thing, the interview side is still dominated by radio-trained NPR types.

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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by TomFurman » Fri May 27, 2016 4:27 pm

BD.. Diuretics and horses. After a hard race, their lungs bleed and they get a bit of fluid. So they are allowed Lasix. It's listed when you bet on the horse. Lots of my former stagehand friends bet horses and there is a trotter track 1/2 mile from here. It's an interesting sub culture.
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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Fri May 27, 2016 4:35 pm

TomFurman wrote:BD.. Diuretics and horses. After a hard race, their lungs bleed and they get a bit of fluid. So they are allowed Lasix. It's listed when you bet on the horse. Lots of my former stagehand friends bet horses and there is a trotter track 1/2 mile from here. It's an interesting sub culture.
Whoa...

That's at once freaky and fascinating.
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Re: Long Duration Cardiac Output training.

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Fri May 27, 2016 8:51 pm

So...thoroughbred training for racing is super interesting...the Japanese and Australians seem to be on the cutting edge...the diuretic use can be minimized by horses being more fit and also warmed up. American trainers are a bit behind.

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