Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

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Dunn
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Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Dunn » Wed May 18, 2016 1:16 pm

Took a 3rd shift spot at the ER and our babysitter has opted out of watching my son due to family emergency. This means that Mon-Thu I will be watching him. While I'm a pro at sleep deprivation, I'm trying to do this intelligently. I'm on his schedule but I'm lucky that I get home early enough to grab a 2-3 hr nap before he wakes and another slightly longer nap mid-late afternoon before work. This means an average of 5-6 hrs a day. Not great but not bad.

I've done a decent bit of reading here and there about it and the various patterns. I'm more curious about anyone's experiences with it.

Thanks.

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Beer Jew » Wed May 18, 2016 1:59 pm

I don't know what either of those mean, but I get more than 5.5 hours of sleep approx. one day a week. The other 6 days I average between 4-5.5 hours.

My experience - when I manage to go a week or two with proper sleep, bodyfat improves, mood improves, overall wellbeing improves, strength improves.

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Wed May 18, 2016 5:48 pm

Almost all polyphasic sleep shit is wishful thinking. The '4-5 hours sleep + 1-2 hou nap' can work, but almost everybody who tries alternate sleep stuff feels shitty. The so called 'uberman' sleep schedule has never worked and those who claim it did are liars.

However, napping can take some of the edge off. It doesn't mean you don't adapt to it and eventually kinda feel ok.

Some folks can do without as much sleep. Some folks can't.

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Wed May 18, 2016 6:11 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Almost all polyphasic sleep shit is wishful thinking. The '4-5 hours sleep + 1-2 hou nap' can work, but almost everybody who tries alternate sleep stuff feels shitty. The so called 'uberman' sleep schedule has never worked and those who claim it did are liars.
This is exactly right.

I have some friends who are docs in hospitals and would claim the fucked up sleep schedules in hospitals was fine once you got into it. 10 years later, they all look older than they are.

I'd look for ways to, at a minimum, schedule normal amounts of sleep.
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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X » Wed May 18, 2016 7:41 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Almost all polyphasic sleep shit is wishful thinking. The '4-5 hours sleep + 1-2 hou nap' can work, but almost everybody who tries alternate sleep stuff feels shitty. The so called 'uberman' sleep schedule has never worked and those who claim it did are liars.
This is exactly right.

I have some friends who are docs in hospitals and would claim the fucked up sleep schedules in hospitals was fine once you got into it. 10 years later, they all look older than they are.

I'd look for ways to, at a minimum, schedule normal amounts of sleep.
Indeed to both of the above. Having worked 3 years of steady, midnight to 8's, your days off throw sleep into a hairy shit fit. That said, I think it was Smet who recently said, if you fall asleep, it means your body needs sleep, period. So if it's not ideal, take what you can get, when you can get it. I do think those who enjoy steady sleep patterns live better lives, overall....I'm not one, I just know the wear and tear of piss poor sleep habits is very real, IMNSHO.

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Boris » Wed May 18, 2016 8:22 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Almost all polyphasic sleep shit is wishful thinking.
I've always kind of thought this... If you have poor sleeping habits, you need to change the habits... It's cool if people don't mind getting bad sleep, but a lot of people get downright defensive about it. "BUT, I CAN'T!!!!!"

Competitive swimming, 2 practices/day, and morning practices cured my inability to sleep. I still have those nights where I obsess or stress and stay up too late, but it's an uncommon occurrence for me.

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Wed May 18, 2016 8:30 pm

Boris wrote:
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Almost all polyphasic sleep shit is wishful thinking.
I've always kind of thought this... If you have poor sleeping habits, you need to change the habits... It's cool if people don't mind getting bad sleep, but a lot of people get downright defensive about it. "BUT, I CAN'T!!!!!
Yeah, having a kid cured me of the "I'm not a morning person" thing. Once you know you are going to be getting up at 6:30 AM indefinitely, and nothing interesting happens after 9:30, going to bed earlier and getting up at 5 is very achievable.
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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by mike.b » Wed May 18, 2016 9:49 pm

This is translated from Russian from that powerlifitng book by some alexey dude:

''Misunderstanding No 7. Only 8 hours of sleep will restore your muscles.

In magazines often write about the importance of sleep and that eight hours of sleep will restore your muscles. With this you can say? Sleep, of course, important, no doubt. A good deep sleep quality will help you relax and recover. In sleep the body "recharge" your hormonal system, cleanses the blood, creates new antibodies, growth hormone, etc. In chronic lack of sleep the body can not recover, and this has a negative effect on muscle growth and strength. It's all clear and undisputed.

But, nevertheless, it is not entirely correct recommendation. It's not the sheer number of hours of sleep and sleep quality. Many of us remember such a situation: sometimes go to sleep a couple hours and it seems that you have enough sleep, and sometimes vice versa, sleep 8-10 hours, get up and walk around as plague and exhausted. Why does this happen? The fact is that sleep has a complicated structure and consists of 5 stages.

The first two stages - a stage of sleep consciousness. The subconscious mind at this point continues to watch. The first stage of sleep - a state where we are dozing, there are often some ragged visual images, the muscles begin to twitch slightly, getting rid of stress. The second stage of sleep - visual images are missing, the body temperature slightly decreases, breathing becomes regular. Only the third and fourth stages of sleep begins deep regenerative sleep. During this period, it is difficult to awaken us, the body is completely relaxed, the nerve cells recover their full potential.

The fifth stage - a phase of paradoxical sleep, which is characterized by increased activity of the organism - the heart starts beating faster, breathing becomes rapid, increases pressure and body temperature starts sweating, his eyes under closed eyelids begin to make rapid movements in different directions.

If a person wakes up in this phase of sleep, you may be scared - it is all in a sweat, heart beating like a rabbit, hands and feet in tone - that this is happening to me? Oh I did not get sick with something? They are afraid of nothing - this is only the fifth stage of sleep - a paradoxical phase (also called the phase of "rapid eye movement).

This phase of paradoxical sleep we inherited from the ancestors, from the ancient times, when people at every step in danger - at any moment could emerge from the darkness, a predator.

If people throughout the 7-8 hours of relaxed sleep, he would not be able to react quickly to danger, the muscle tone during this time is significantly reduced. Nature has invented a way out of this situation and agreed to every 1,5-2 hours to sort of shake-up of the organism, so that the muscles do not lose their tone and were ready to respond quickly in case of danger. Motorists are aware of the nature of idea. Even if your car is worth a whole year in a garage, good driver a few times a year, always led him, drives away in vain, that the car was always ready to metal does not rust and do not stick together. " Ideally, all these five stages successively replace each other about every 90-110 minutes (this time one cycle of sleep): first, the first stage, then second and so on to the stage of paradoxical sleep. Then this cycle repeats itself again. As shown by studies of physiologists, approximately 55% of total sleep time is the first and second phase, 20% of the time spent on the paradoxical phase, and only 25% are third and fourth
phases, which allow us to sleep. Look at Fig.1.1.

Fig.1.1. Stages of sleep (black - indicate the phase of paradoxical sleep).

The figure shows that the dream comes to the fourth stage only in the first 3 hours - is the strongest and restoring sleep, when we truly rest. After this time, there are only two major breakthroughs in the third phase of sleep (at the 4th hour of sleep and closer to the 6-WMD). That is, in principle, after 4 - 4,5 hours of sleep, could not sleep, because the remaining time - this is not a dream, but mostly stay in 1 and 2 stages of dreams, when the subconscious mind is awake. The finding in this phase does not bring no rest or recovery of the nerve cells of the brain. Herein lies the pool of free time.

The man who learns to manage their sleep (full night's sleep for 3-5 hours of sleep) may increase their active day to 21-19 hours a day. Perhaps someone will be interested in this topic, so I'll give one of the technologies of control sleep (research academician A. Wayne, head of the sleep center at the department of neurology FPPO MMA IM Sechenov, Moscow, RF Government Prize in 2003 in the field of science and technology for the development and introduction of technologies for the care and rehabilitation of patients with sleep). The essence of this technology is to achieve as much as possible stay in the fourth stage of sleep. But since This phase is concentrated in the first hour of sleep, then this will have to sleep 2 times a day.

First couple of comments on this technology management sleep. Note first - would have to sleep only at the time of day, in which you sleep most efficiently. This is a time for each is determined individually and can get to any part of the day. So - if you find that your best bet is to sleep in 12 days, then be ready. Note the second - at night, beat sleep, have something to do, or waking into flour. Therefore, you need to decide in advance - what do you do 19-20 hours a day.

There are people who have dropped out do to this system only because of the fact that they have become too much free time, and they did not know how to use it.

And now more.


The first step should be to identify the time when you most effectively go to sleep. To do this, select a couple of days when you can not afford to sleep more than a day and when there is no urgent and important cases. Wake up to this day you will as usual, say at 8 am. Day live, as usual, but our study will start with 12 at night. From 12 nights begin to listen to their own feelings.

Gradually, it turns out that you want to sleep attacks - sometimes there are no forces to keep my eyes open, but then suddenly 20 minutes later again becomes tolerable. For all of these observations, start up a blog where you honestly record the time at which begins to be desired sleep duration of the attack the desire to lie down to sleep and estimation of strength of each attack on the three point scale (1 - sleepy, 2 - very sleepy, 3 - unbearably sleepy). The experiment should continue until 12 midnight the next day, ie exactly day. The next day a fresh mind carefully examine this data.

Have to get that draft to sleep attacks occur every few hours, and usually they are appearing in a nearly identical intervals, or turns with one long and one short interval. Of all reported attacks must first identify the most durable. And then 2 of them are very strong, ie those in which there were very sleepy phase. So, get 2 time interval, in which very sleepy. In principle, these moments can be a very different time, but usually one somewhere between one night and 6 am, and another somewhere in the afternoon. Night sleep can do more long-term, and day - more than a short one.

For example, if you have such a phase is an irresistible desire to sleep begins at 5 am and another at 13 days, your sleep schedule is as follows. At 5 am, you go to sleep and start an alarm clock so that it rang through 2 - 2,5 hours.

During this period of sleep, as seen from the graph (recall Fig.1.1), you stay in the fourth stage of sleep as much as those who slept 8-10 hours a day, and fully rest. In the 13 days need to lie down and sleep even less - just one hour. In the end, you just get some sleep 3 -3.5 hours per day, but stay in the fourth phase of sleep, even more than the average person will spend over 8 hours of sleep. Of great importance in this system is accurate. If you want to miss a moment and do not fall asleep within the first 15 minutes of their "sleep phase", it does not come welcome rest, and you either Wake hour 4, ignoring all the alarms in the world, or wake up at the appointed time, it is broken. And note that even the creators of the system - it is important that during the day you had at least three hours of rest. Refers to something like a seat with a book for tea or other forms of relaxation, ie not less than 3 hours without physical and mental stress.

And this time should be somewhere in the afternoon - between 10 am and 10 pm. And another important point: when wake up, you need to convince yourself that you want to sleep only by inertia, and in fact the body of sleep is no longer necessary. However, you are already familiar with the stages of sleep and realize that this is true. After 5 minutes, after you get up, sleep did not want. Even for this we must add that in the first experiment, and you can miss with time. If you think that to go 15 minutes later, it would be smarter - better listen to yourself and try. If would seem that with all the schedule time to sleep is something not right, then do the experiment to identify your time falling asleep again, and check the results. Here's a method of managing sleep. However, if you want to shorten the time of sleep, but do not want to carry out any experiments, closely monitor the time and so on, this method has a simple analog - enough to sleep 4 - 4.5 hours a day at a time when This should go to bed at 4.30 - 5.00 am and sleep till 9.00 am. This sleep time is chosen because most people just have to rush him to the desire to sleep at night. This method of control sleep may help those who desperately short of time or only at the hall, but also to study, family, work. Well, if you have enough time for everything, you can not think about different ways to manage sleep and sleep for 8 hours a day, and advises us as foreign magazines.''

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Dunn » Wed May 18, 2016 10:56 pm

Thanks for the replies. I'm gonna do my best to make it work. Hoping to get a babysitter soon so that will free up some sleep time. Right now I'm just trying to make the best of it.

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu May 19, 2016 1:47 am

First time I saw all the fuckwit 'bio hackers' going on and on about the uberman schedule, I started to dig into it. Who the fuck knows if Davinci did this? Maybe when obsessed with a project, but you ain't Davinci...every one of the assholes who tried it raved about it until they fell asleep and slept 15 hours through alarms and everything.

Fucking biohacker retards...every one of them is a charlatan and a liar

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu May 19, 2016 1:49 am

Russian bullshit. None of that shit works either

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by aussie luke » Thu May 19, 2016 2:50 am

I don't think I've had more than 7 hours sleep once in over three years since we had our first kid. Most nights I get about 6 if I'm lucky. I do ok on 6. Less than that and I struggle.

BUT even that 6 hours is just not the same as it used to be. I just don't sleep like I used to. Wake up at every noise - wake up if there is NO noise...

I've just gotten used to it. During the summer I still got up and ran early even if I had 3 or 4 hours of broken sleep - 'cos that was the only chance I was going to get.

Now things have settled down a bit and both kids tend to sleep all night long, but they get up too early for me to get out for a run. So now I row at home in the mornings or evenings, run at lunchtime and sometimes do a bit of KB work or a load of pushups in the evening.

I also eat quite a lot now and quite regularly. Being tired is one thing. Being hungry is one thing. But being tired AND hungry and trying to train etc just fucks me right up.

Been doing this a while now and doing ok on it, but I've just started trialing a new HRV app to try and make sure I'm not absolutely destroying myself. http://www.hrv4training.com/

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu May 19, 2016 4:03 am

Im doubtful on non strap based Hrv stuff

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by aussie luke » Thu May 19, 2016 4:16 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Im doubtful on non strap based Hrv stuff
The creator claims it is as accurate as a Polar H7 and a hospital ECG and uses the camera himself. Only on my second day so far and needs 4 days before it starts making any recommendations.

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by johno » Thu May 19, 2016 5:11 am

Josh, I think you just need to make the best of a not-great situation. You know that broken sleep and shift work are no good in the long term. So, as soon as feasible, hire a new sitter or work out a better arrangement.
I suspect you're a bit hyper vigilant when you sleep while the little guy is still sleeping, so the quality of that sleep is suspect, regardless of the quantity.
You can power through this, but a better sleep situation will make other things better for you, including your studies.

My only other advice is all the stuff I use & recommend for any sleep schedule: a good blackout sleep mask, white noise, a regular sleep schedule, and restricted caffeine, alcohol, and food before bedtime. I also read that restricting your screen time before bed helps, but I wouldn't know, personally.

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Thu May 19, 2016 1:58 pm

Every time I don't follow the 'no booze, no food' before bed rule, my sleep is shittier

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Boris » Thu May 19, 2016 3:03 pm

Here's the advice I just gave my graduating seniors. Nothing new, of course:

People talk about poor sleeping habits as if it’s a chronic condition rather than what it is – a poor habit. You can unlearn poor sleeping habits, but it requires discipline and patience – it will take time and consistent effort to change it. Here are the basics of getting better sleep:

*don’t press the snooze button, get up EARLY (6am or earlier), and stay up – no naps!
*no caffeine after lunch, limit junk food
*get some light exercise every day you can
*unplug an hour before you go to bed – no tv, internet, music, nothing!
*don’t obsess about crap in bed, focus on how tired you are and how great it feels to be in bed.
*go to bed early (10pm) and lights out

That’s it. Most people will try this for a week or two and say “THAT DOESN’T WORK FOR ME!” Sorry, but you’re no special flower – if you’ve ingrained a bad habit over a period of years, it might take longer to develop new habits. Do it without fail for 2 months and I can almost guarantee that you will be sleeping better.

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Fri May 20, 2016 4:48 am

Boris wrote:Here's the advice I just gave my graduating seniors. Nothing new, of course:

People talk about poor sleeping habits as if it’s a chronic condition rather than what it is – a poor habit. You can unlearn poor sleeping habits, but it requires discipline and patience – it will take time and consistent effort to change it. Here are the basics of getting better sleep:

*don’t press the snooze button, get up EARLY (6am or earlier), and stay up – no naps!
*no caffeine after lunch, limit junk food
*get some light exercise every day you can
*unplug an hour before you go to bed – no tv, internet, music, nothing!
*don’t obsess about crap in bed, focus on how tired you are and how great it feels to be in bed.
*go to bed early (10pm) and lights out

That’s it. Most people will try this for a week or two and say “THAT DOESN’T WORK FOR ME!” Sorry, but you’re no special flower – if you’ve ingrained a bad habit over a period of years, it might take longer to develop new habits. Do it without fail for 2 months and I can almost guarantee that you will be sleeping better.
Fuck.

Ouch but true.
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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Sangoma » Fri May 20, 2016 6:52 am

Dunn, stock up on Zolpidem. A quarter of a tablet will give you couple of hours of sleep. Not as good as drug free but better than sleep deprivation.

The issue of bad sleep is risk/benefit problem. Should I not take a sleeping pill and put up with a bad night? And then risk falling asleep behind the wheel on the highway? Or nodding off and missing some bad event during anaesthetic? Let alone ruining the day for people around me being a grumpy cunt.

I miss the times when I took public transport to medical school and later work. Travel took almost an hour, and it added a great deal of rest.

And if you're really adventurous, the latest cocktail among the Sydney youth is Zolpidem/Vodka/Red Bull. Apparently the results are very interesting and you have to have at least one sober person to stop you from doing something you may feel embarrassed about.
Last edited by Sangoma on Fri May 20, 2016 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Sangoma » Fri May 20, 2016 7:07 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Russian bullshit. None of that shit works either
Apparently there was some research on this with astronauts, but I am guessing their schedule is more flexible than that of mere mortals. Again, space research being run by the military and being seriously classified, I doubt any of this is credible. Those who know don't talk about it and vice versa.
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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Beer Jew » Fri May 20, 2016 7:52 am

Boris wrote:Here's the advice I just gave my graduating seniors. Nothing new, of course:

People talk about poor sleeping habits as if it’s a chronic condition rather than what it is – a poor habit. You can unlearn poor sleeping habits, but it requires discipline and patience – it will take time and consistent effort to change it. Here are the basics of getting better sleep:

*don’t press the snooze button, get up EARLY (6am or earlier), and stay up – no naps!
*no caffeine after lunch, limit junk food
*get some light exercise every day you can
*unplug an hour before you go to bed – no tv, internet, music, nothing!
*don’t obsess about crap in bed, focus on how tired you are and how great it feels to be in bed.
*go to bed early (10pm) and lights out

That’s it. Most people will try this for a week or two and say “THAT DOESN’T WORK FOR ME!” Sorry, but you’re no special flower – if you’ve ingrained a bad habit over a period of years, it might take longer to develop new habits. Do it without fail for 2 months and I can almost guarantee that you will be sleeping better.
JEsus. Does anyone actually live like this? No caffeine after lunch? Unplug an hour before bed?

I wish Shaf would stop holding back on sleep hacks and just tell us how he actually feels.

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Dunn » Fri May 20, 2016 1:24 pm

Thanks all. I really have no problem falling asleep, though it isn't deep. My problem also isn't good or bad habits. My biggest problem is scheduling due to work and my boy. I WILL be moderately deprived some days. My goal is simply to mitigate the effects as much as possible through biphasic naps and the occasional Adrafinil. We are looking for a replacement sitter but we are picky.

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Boris » Fri May 20, 2016 2:06 pm

Beer Jew wrote:
Boris wrote:Here's the advice I just gave my graduating seniors. Nothing new, of course:

People talk about poor sleeping habits as if it’s a chronic condition rather than what it is – a poor habit. You can unlearn poor sleeping habits, but it requires discipline and patience – it will take time and consistent effort to change it. Here are the basics of getting better sleep:

*don’t press the snooze button, get up EARLY (6am or earlier), and stay up – no naps!
*no caffeine after lunch, limit junk food
*get some light exercise every day you can
*unplug an hour before you go to bed – no tv, internet, music, nothing!
*don’t obsess about crap in bed, focus on how tired you are and how great it feels to be in bed.
*go to bed early (10pm) and lights out

That’s it. Most people will try this for a week or two and say “THAT DOESN’T WORK FOR ME!” Sorry, but you’re no special flower – if you’ve ingrained a bad habit over a period of years, it might take longer to develop new habits. Do it without fail for 2 months and I can almost guarantee that you will be sleeping better.
JEsus. Does anyone actually live like this? No caffeine after lunch? Unplug an hour before bed?
I don't live like this, but I don't have problems sleeping now either. I have had problems though and when I have and I follow this advice, the problems go away.

It's not magical. Simple, but not easy. I guess it depends on how bad you want it.

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Boris » Fri May 20, 2016 2:09 pm

Dunn wrote:We are looking for a replacement sitter but we are picky.
I absolutely understand and respect this. I hope you find someone good for your kid. Being sleep deprived is part of life sometimes - we probably all need to relearn that too sometimes.

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Re: Biphasic and polyphasic sleep patterns

Post by Dunn » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:12 am

So my schedule on work days has been:

4x a week
0500 to 0800-0900: sleep

Up all day with my son

1400-1500 to 1700: sleep

1900-0400: work

So far it still sucks. I'm not becoming some paragon of multitasking but I'm functioning and not losing it. The siesta method, which is kinda what I'm doing, seems to spread out the suck so that you can still function decently throughout the week. I'm very glad to get to my off days so I can catch up though.

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