Intermittent Boozing

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Sangoma
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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Sangoma » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:26 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote: FWIW...and this comes as no surprise to anyone, I'm a massive fan of drugs and can and have quit them all cold turkey easily and without remorse, including injectable opiates. I get tired of shit and just stop doing it. Whatever that switch that gets flipped in a classic addict I don;t have it. That said, I find alcohol to be the most subtly challenging of all the drug to handle regardless of how you're wired and I believe it has substantial downsides even for non alcoholics. Johno has found something that works for him, I found a different thing for me but as a guy sitting on the opposite end of the spectrum from the AA crowd, I still think whiskey is more dangerous than opiates and a bigger threat to a well lived life than anything I've ever taken.
A few of people involved in Drugs and Alcohol medicine mentioned that if you start two people, one on alcohol and another on medical grade heroin, twenty years later the one on heroin will come out on top. Mental health, liver, heart and other aspects of health. Part of the danger with alcohol is that its perfectly socially acceptable.Smoking a joint on the streets of Sydney will get you in trouble, but drinking the cheapest booze as long as it's covered by the brown paper bag is ok.

An interesting observation off topic. In one of the Sydney universities a group of volunteers started distributing kits for testing drugs. As in you can test MDMA you buy at the party for purity and possible dangerous contaminants. The proper way of dealing with drug related problems, instead of hiding from it by prohibition. Apparently it's illegal (duh!), and those behind this program - a group of doctors - already got in trouble with the police, but continuing anyway.
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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:50 am

Sangoma wrote: Part of the danger with alcohol is that its perfectly socially acceptable.Smoking a joint on the streets of Sydney will get you in trouble, but drinking the cheapest booze as long as it's covered by the brown paper bag is ok.
And on the flip side, I was enlightened by the fact that a lot of the people with the most serious issues with alcohol are those who have great careers, homes, and families. They simply can afford to drop 20 bucks or more a day on it at the liquor store and not think twice about it.

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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by powerlifter54 » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:12 pm

Grew up in an alcoholic family, then moved into an alcoholic military culture, then gravitated into the world of PL and BB where both AS and recreational drugs were de rigueur. Add in constant random testing by WADDA, the US Military, and now the Feds, and mixing in some horrific exposure to vets over prescribed for Oxy and watching that shit show, i am now a bit conflicted. On one hand i have zero tolerance for somebody who impacts their family with their habits whether it be heroin, whiskey, wine, or just being an asshole. On the other while i am no fan of weed i have to scratch my head as i try to think of the last weed blasted asshole i have had to deal with and wonder why the NFL is just fine with 25 year olds getting shitfaced on brown liquor or gulping pain meds until they either slap their girlfriend or get a DUI, but are like the FBI on Bonnie and Clyde when some overstimulated in deep pain kid needs to mellow out a bit.

Will just keep on with having my occasional beer or wine with friends and take care of my own issues. Had 5 or 6 last week at my daughters wedding and realized that crazy train has left PL54 station.
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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Protobuilder » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:39 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote: The aftermath of a night of drinking is often the entire next day wasted.
My "night of drinking" doesn't need to involve that much alcohol recently. It's simply not worth it.

Furthermore, for me, all or nothing are easy. It's moderation that I've never really been able to do.
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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by milosz » Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:48 pm

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:
Sangoma wrote: Part of the danger with alcohol is that its perfectly socially acceptable.Smoking a joint on the streets of Sydney will get you in trouble, but drinking the cheapest booze as long as it's covered by the brown paper bag is ok.
And on the flip side, I was enlightened by the fact that a lot of the people with the most serious issues with alcohol are those who have great careers, homes, and families. They simply can afford to drop 20 bucks or more a day on it at the liquor store and not think twice about it.
This is true of almost any substance. A rich person could keep up an opiate addiction for ages with access to a quality supply. People get in trouble when they start knocking over little old ladies for fix money.

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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by johno » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:39 pm

Conservatives totally ignore the supply/demand results of the War on Drugs. And they claim to be so economically savvy compared to Libs.
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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by milosz » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:19 pm

Harm reduction is almost always the smart policy and rarely popular with the citizenry because too many people are wrapped up in thinking they can change human behavior.

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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Sangoma » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:23 pm

In his book "Saying Yes" Jacob Sullum says that as the result of the War on Drugs the corresponding annual expenditure is several times higher, prison population blew up, and drugs are cheaper and easier to get. One side-effect is that the drugs are probably safer as well - dealing is risky enough, and dealers don't want to put manslaughter on top of the potential charges.

Just couple of week ago a surgeon I work with mentioned consulting a patient, normal higher-middle class guy who admitted to be regular cocaine user. Unrelated health issue, fine otherwise, physically and mentally. I don't how this is different from someone admitting to having a glass of whisky few times a week.
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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:49 pm

Sangoma wrote: Just couple of week ago a surgeon I work with mentioned consulting a patient, normal higher-middle class guy who admitted to be regular cocaine user. Unrelated health issue, fine otherwise, physically and mentally. I don't how this is different from someone admitting to having a glass of whisky few times a week.
No difference. Zero. Zip. Nada. The difference, like training, or anything else, is in the frequency and volume. Alcohol, for reasons others stated above, to include yourself, makes for an easy daily thing. It is, I believe, more expensive, overall, than most illegal street drugs.

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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by milosz » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:17 am

Not sure the drugs are safer - huge rash of people thinking they're getting one thing and getting Fentanyl instead in the US and Canada. Killed a number of opiate users already. If you can get your morphine derivative from a pharmacy/dispensary you know which it is, the purity and strength.

Same with hallucinogens - you can't kill yourself with acid but there are research chemicals that are substituted that can fuck you up if you over-dose by a few mg.

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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:11 am

milosz wrote:Not sure the drugs are safer - huge rash of people thinking they're getting one thing and getting Fentanyl instead in the US and Canada. Killed a number of opiate users already. If you can get your morphine derivative from a pharmacy/dispensary you know which it is, the purity and strength.

Same with hallucinogens - you can't kill yourself with acid but there are research chemicals that are substituted that can fuck you up if you over-dose by a few mg.

I think the supply chain issues are separate from the actual chemical compounds themselves. The fact is that the body is incredibly robust and tolerates a huge array of chemical interventions, from repeated heroin use to a half rack of yellow belly coors every other day with not nearly as much in the way of long term effects as you'd expect in a lot of cases.

The research chem bit is kinda different from a chem standpoint just because not many of those have been studied at all, let alone having 1000's of years of field testing like opium, alchohol, coca...etc.


pS...china white has been fentanyl for a long time, it's just making further inraods west than it used to where most people are used to the black and brown heroin that comes out of the golden triangle
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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Holland Oates » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:27 am

http://www.aol.com/article/2016/07/28/h ... /21436662/
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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Mickey O'neil » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:28 pm

Not a damn thing wrong with smoking. I quite enjoy it when possible.
milosz wrote:Trading in 60% of my drinking for weed was the best health decision I've made.

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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:10 pm

I had one beer this weekend. Just didn't feel like it.

One issue is that I find food and alcohol problematic now

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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by milosz » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:11 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote: I think the supply chain issues are separate from the actual chemical compounds themselves. The fact is that the body is incredibly robust and tolerates a huge array of chemical interventions, from repeated heroin use to a half rack of yellow belly coors every other day with not nearly as much in the way of long term effects as you'd expect in a lot of cases.
In the context of prohibition and drug safety, I don't know that you can separate the two. Prohibition doesn't alter the safety of substances people choose to ingest, but it does effect the quality of subtances or force substitution of a safer substance with a less-safe substance.

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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:25 pm

milosz wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote: I think the supply chain issues are separate from the actual chemical compounds themselves. The fact is that the body is incredibly robust and tolerates a huge array of chemical interventions, from repeated heroin use to a half rack of yellow belly coors every other day with not nearly as much in the way of long term effects as you'd expect in a lot of cases.
In the context of prohibition and drug safety, I don't know that you can separate the two. Prohibition doesn't alter the safety of substances people choose to ingest, but it does effect the quality of subtances or force substitution of a safer substance with a less-safe substance.
I don't disagree. However, when it comes to these issues, too many people throw up their hands claiming "intersectionality" or some such and fail to move the ball at all because they won't unmuddle their thinking. Clearly, this is an area where a lot of factors blend together. Because it can be complicated and confusing I think it's critical to take things apart for a rational discussion on drugs (whether it's discussing booze with your kids or arguing for a particular policy). Step one is separating primary and secondary considerations in the use of drugs. This is especially true when we're talking about a harm reduction model that seeks to correct misconceptions on the compounds themselves. I think we're best off when we stick to the pharmacology first, then understand how pharmacology intersects with culture. Until we break things down in this way, it's hard to reach solid conclusions...we're stuck with nonsense arguments like...well booze is part of our cultuire so....or, it's not dangerous, it was prescribed by a doctor...when in fact we know that two regulated and widely available classes of drugs, Hypnotics and Alcohol, are the most dangerous drugs one can lay their hands on whether taken together or separately.
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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Bram » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:22 pm

For a college assignment I had to log how much I drank and how I felt afterwards for roughly 10 weeks. After 3 weeks I realized that having more than 6 drinks nearly always led to hangovers, and drinking more than twice a week led to gaining fat.

I've tried to stick with twice a week, 6 drinks or less ever since. As long as I do that it doesn't become habitual and I often don't drink in a week. Obviously everyone's tolerances and addictive tendencies are different but it was useful to write it down.
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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Yes, I'm drunk » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:58 pm

Prohibition is harm reduction: it prevents the vast majority of citizens - those who are decent, law-abiding folk - from ever getting mixed up with the horror of drugs.

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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:11 pm

Yes, I'm drunk wrote:Prohibition is harm reduction: it prevents the vast majority of citizens - those who are decent, law-abiding folk - from ever getting mixed up with the horror of drugs.

You're a fucking idiot. Prohibition is a harm shifting model. People have now and always will use drugs. We're not the only species and we're not the last species. Prohibition is an abject horror show.

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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by johno » Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:19 am

As much as I dig warrantless searches and dropping flash bangs into infants' cribs, maybe Big Brother could consider treating adults like...adults. Provide information on pros & cons, maybe some PSA's showing meth mouth or DUI crashes, and let the consumer decide.
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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:31 pm

Some interesting perspectives.

Eva T on booze

http://evatstrengthandconditioning.com/ ... e-messing/

Note, there is at least one interesting link there, maybe more

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/ ... 72-283.pdf
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/ ... hap02e.pdf

Then there's Martin Berkham's piece on boozing, which many tout as the end all be all of drinking while training.

http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth- ... uscle.html

Note the information is somewhat contradictory.

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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:03 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Some interesting perspectives.

Eva T on booze

http://evatstrengthandconditioning.com/ ... e-messing/

Note, there is at least one interesting link there, maybe more

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/ ... 72-283.pdf
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/ ... hap02e.pdf

Then there's Martin Berkham's piece on boozing, which many tout as the end all be all of drinking while training.

http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth- ... uscle.html

Note the information is somewhat contradictory.

This is one of those areas where I think the current science doesn't close all the loops. Alcohol is also widely tolerated by massive populations who drink huge amounts and don't suffer terribly from it.

I look at it in my own process as like bread and pasta. I'm not gluten in tolerate, nor sensitive nor plagued with any nutritional malady that I am aware of. But..I sure as hell feel better if I avoid bread and pasta. Could be the stuff in it, could be the food it's served with, could be just carbs generally, could be any manner of factors...but if I largely avoid, I largely feel better. So I do until I really want a beer or a glass of whiskey and then I enjoy it for what it is recognizing, it's not something for me personally to binge on.
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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by seeahill » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:09 am

Back in the day (think late 60s), I smoked a lot. Then I got my job at Rolling Stone. I'd end my workday, smoke a bit and realize that "a million people are going to read what I wrote today." I thought, "they're going to think I'm an asshole." Then I'd think a little bit more, have another hit, and realize that "I am an asshole."

I stopped smoking and replaced that with booze. Then, at the end of the day, I'd have a few drinks and think, "a million people are going to read what I wrote today. They'll think I'm an asshole." I'd let that sink in, have another drink, think, "Fuck 'em."
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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by Holland Oates » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:07 am

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Re: Intermittent Boozing

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X » Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:24 am

What I can say in my non-professional, yet highly experienced opinion is, abstain a few days per week like Johno is doing, but also abstain a few weeks out of the year, a few times per year. If you deal with any degree of angst in execution, let alone the very thought of doing so, you probably need to watch how you're treading with alcohol. JMO/JME

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