Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Stick to training related posts.

Moderators: Dux, seeahill

Post Reply
Bennyonesix1
Corporal
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:13 pm

This is a serious question. What's there left to learn in training at this point? Don't we know how to get 99% of people as strong as they can get in a reasonable amount of time?

It sure seems like any new breakthroughs are coming from nutrition and not technique or periodization or excercise selection.

And I wonder how much significant benefit there is to be found in even nutrition.

User avatar
Grandpa's Spells
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 10838
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 10:08 pm

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:24 pm

I believe Mr. Weck would like a word.

JMO, but there's a fair bit of not-remotely-perfected material on optimizing for the over-40/50+ set.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.

User avatar
powerlifter54
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7937
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:46 pm
Location: TX

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by powerlifter54 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:51 pm

B16,

My N=1 experience is most people have absolutely no idea what they are doing. Mainly because they have no absolute idea about what they really want to accomplish.

Jmo and e
PL54
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

"But even snake wrestling beats life in the cube, for me at least. In measured doses."-Lex

Bennyonesix1
Corporal
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:10 pm

Not disputing that at all. But that's a question of education not gaps in structural knowledge or even the possibility of paradigm shifting breakthroughs.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 37973
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Fat Cat » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:34 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:24 pm
I believe Mr. Weck would like a word.

JMO, but there's a fair bit of not-remotely-perfected material on optimizing for the over-40/50+ set.
To pick up on that: IMHO, there are some solid resources for lifting, and even some for nutrition, mobility, etc. but there are precious few which show folks how to put it all together effectively, and most especially for the person who is past the "wanna go out for foobawl" stage of life.

I actually think Tom Furman does a good job of this, and at his best maybe Wendler, and of course there are a few others but it's not a common property to see people presenting solid information with an eye towards honesty, balance, and proportion.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6633
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Sangoma » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:23 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:24 pm
I believe Mr. Weck would like a word.

JMO, but there's a fair bit of not-remotely-perfected material on optimizing for the over-40/50+ set.
I agree. Very little research and material on how to coach/train older folk who want more than average results.
Image

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6633
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Sangoma » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:10 am

I would go as far as to say the diet has been solved as well. Eat less, the rest are contextual details, similar to the training.
Image

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 37973
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:16 am

Sangoma wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:23 pm
Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:24 pm
I believe Mr. Weck would like a word.

JMO, but there's a fair bit of not-remotely-perfected material on optimizing for the over-40/50+ set.
I agree. Very little research and material on how to coach/train older folk who want more than average results.
All the serious material is for people preparing for a specific event. Very, very little is devoted to people who want to maintain a level of health, strength, and beauty over the long haul without devoting every minute to preparing for a competition.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6633
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Sangoma » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:52 am

The problem is, studying sports methodology is relatively easy: there is no shortage of experimental subjects and conditions are pretty easy to control. In nutrition, on the other hand, any kind of experiments are very hard - compliance is poor, subjects are not as motivated, hunger is a strong deterrent to many protocols etc., etc. That's why we have so much garbage in nutrition: most studies are questionnaire based, lots are case control. These two factors alone invalidate a lot of data.
Image

User avatar
SubClaw
Top
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by SubClaw » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:54 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:16 am
Sangoma wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:23 pm
Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:24 pm
I believe Mr. Weck would like a word.

JMO, but there's a fair bit of not-remotely-perfected material on optimizing for the over-40/50+ set.
I agree. Very little research and material on how to coach/train older folk who want more than average results.
All the serious material is for people preparing for a specific event. Very, very little is devoted to people who want to maintain a level of health, strength, and beauty over the long haul without devoting every minute to preparing for a competition.
That because it's hard to sell moderation.

"Eat less and better, move and stretch daily, do some form of steady cardio five times a week, lifts moderate weights three times a week and do some form of sprints once in a while" isn't sexy.

That's precisely why CrossShit is a huge success. They supposedly make a badass out of anyone, right?

User avatar
SubClaw
Top
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by SubClaw » Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:55 am

Sangoma wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:52 am
The problem is, studying sports methodology is relatively easy: there is no shortage of experimental subjects and conditions are pretty easy to control. In nutrition, on the other hand, any kind of experiments are very hard - compliance is poor, subjects are not as motivated, hunger is a strong deterrent to many protocols etc., etc. That's why we have so much garbage in nutrition: most studies are questionnaire based, lots are case control. These two factors alone invalidate a lot of data.
That's what gulags are for. You have a wide array of compliant subjects to experiment with and all the time in the world to do it.

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 37973
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Fat Cat » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:25 pm

SubClaw wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:55 am
Sangoma wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:52 am
The problem is, studying sports methodology is relatively easy: there is no shortage of experimental subjects and conditions are pretty easy to control. In nutrition, on the other hand, any kind of experiments are very hard - compliance is poor, subjects are not as motivated, hunger is a strong deterrent to many protocols etc., etc. That's why we have so much garbage in nutrition: most studies are questionnaire based, lots are case control. These two factors alone invalidate a lot of data.
That's what gulags are for. You have a wide array of compliant subjects to experiment with and all the time in the world to do it.
What you might call a final solution to the matter of diet and nutrition.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
SubClaw
Top
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:01 pm

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by SubClaw » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:19 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:25 pm
What you might call a final solution to the matter of diet and nutrition.
Well... all those guys from the camps had visible abs, amirite?

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6633
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Sangoma » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:17 pm

Given morbidity and mortality rates in gulags and other camps I don't think these methods will be authorized or recommended by medical authorities. We need research on people in free living conditions, and that's a real challenge.
Image

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 37973
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:35 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:17 pm
Given morbidity and mortality rates in gulags and other camps I don't think these methods will be authorized or recommended by medical authorities. We need research on people in free living conditions, and that's a real challenge.
What do you have against camping? Judgmental and small minded AF.

As far as I can tell, eat: whole foods, as fresh as possible, and at least sometimes, raw. Be moderate. Don't smoke or use drugs and limit alcohol.

That's pretty much as close to an ideal plan as I can formulate.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6633
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Sangoma » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:34 pm

To be frank I also think it is as simple as that. But the captains of science keep coming with statements such as - bacon causes cancer, eating egg yolk is worse than smoking, saturated fat causes disease, olive oil cures cancer and so on. Latest thing in Russia - oats for breakfast is reeeelly bad...
Image

User avatar
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 37973
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 鬼ヶ島

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Fat Cat » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:39 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:34 pm
To be frank I also think it is as simple as that. But the captains of science keep coming with statements such as - bacon causes cancer, eating egg yolk is worse than smoking, saturated fat causes disease, olive oil cures cancer and so on. Latest thing in Russia - oats for breakfast is reeeelly bad...
Oats are un-Russian. Щи да каша – пища наша.
Image
"Prepare your hearts as a fortress, for there will be no other." -Francisco Pizarro González

User avatar
Lych
Sarge
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 2:36 pm

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Lych » Sat Aug 24, 2019 7:25 pm

Fat Cat wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:34 pm
Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:24 pm
I believe Mr. Weck would like a word.

JMO, but there's a fair bit of not-remotely-perfected material on optimizing for the over-40/50+ set.
To pick up on that: IMHO, there are some solid resources for lifting, and even some for nutrition, mobility, etc. but there are precious few which show folks how to put it all together effectively, and most especially for the person who is past the "wanna go out for foobawl" stage of life.

I actually think Tom Furman does a good job of this, and at his best maybe Wendler, and of course there are a few others but it's not a common property to see people presenting solid information with an eye towards honesty, balance, and proportion.

Agreed. Not as familiar with Furman as I am with Wendler though.

User avatar
Bram
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5549
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:38 am

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Bram » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:52 pm

Bennyonesix1 wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:13 pm
This is a serious question. What's there left to learn in training at this point? Don't we know how to get 99% of people as strong as they can get in a reasonable amount of time?

It sure seems like any new breakthroughs are coming from nutrition and not technique or periodization or excercise selection.

And I wonder how much significant benefit there is to be found in even nutrition.
There's some quote of Bruce Lee's that is roughly "knowing is not enough, you must apply." You can have shit tons of book knowledge, but unless you do the exercises in a way that works for your body, and eat the foods that works for your body, you can spin your wheels the rest of your life.

I don't know how much it carries over, but when I was into lifting like a bodybuilder, I was adamant about my breath, my form, and having the mind-muscle connection. I got the results I wanted, whether in spite of those things, or in part because of them.

If you want to gain muscle, lose fat, be more explosive, be more flexible, etc., there's plenty of resources. But you can't chase disparate goals effectively and you gotta put the work in.
"My candle burns at both ends; It will not last the night; But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends—It gives a lovely light!" - Edna St. Vincent Millay

Bennyonesix1
Corporal
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:51 pm

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Bennyonesix1 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:35 pm

Just to be clear, I am not arguing I know it all. I very clearly don't.

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6633
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Is it all diet from here on in? What's left to learn in training techniques?

Post by Sangoma » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:02 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:39 pm
Sangoma wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:34 pm
To be frank I also think it is as simple as that. But the captains of science keep coming with statements such as - bacon causes cancer, eating egg yolk is worse than smoking, saturated fat causes disease, olive oil cures cancer and so on. Latest thing in Russia - oats for breakfast is reeeelly bad...
Oats are un-Russian. Щи да каша – пища наша.
Come on, Mister Polyglot, каша includes овсяная каша - oats. Russian enough. Овсянка.
Image

Post Reply