Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

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Onan The Barbarian
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Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by Onan The Barbarian » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:10 am

Anecdotes, wild assertions, etc. wanted on combining weight training with 3-4x/week of BJJ (Gracie Barra). BJJ seems to be taking care of general conditioning and middle-aged jackoffitude but I feel weaker (and more fragile) than I could be and want to go back to the weights. No real injuries aside from dicey high-mileage shoulders from Judo.

Thoughts on exercise selection/variety? Training frequency/intensity? Set/rep schemes? Has anyone successfully combined stuff like Dan John's various "Easy Strength" programs with Judo or BJJ?

I don't want to move up weight classes - I have about a 2-4kg window to play with and have probably lost most of the fat that I'm going to (got from 110kg to 95kg already). So getting strong by just packing on a pile of muscle (which in the past has happened quite easily from PL training) isn't part of the plan. Maybe that means this whole plan is mostly bullshit (if you buy the idea that strength gains without hypertrophy are just activity-specific).

I'm not expecting my sports ability to become magically better from lifting weights (nor is it my goal to just muscle people around) so I don't need any "get on the mats more" homilies (I can't currently fit any more BJJ/Judo into my lifestyle as it is, but there is opportunity to lift weights). I have a reasonable set up in my garage so training frequency isn't a problem just for reasons of organization. Could hit one lift a day across 6 days or 6 lifts once per week just as easily (in terms of lifestyle, not saying either of these are necessarily a good idea).

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by tonkadtx » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:22 pm

First of all, size and strength can not be discounted. I regularly beat or hang with people that are better than me (in comps or going close to 100%) by being a gorilla.
Thoughts on exercise selection/variety? Training frequency/intensity? Set/rep schemes? Has anyone successfully combined stuff like Dan John's various "Easy Strength" programs with Judo or BJJ?


I would really, really like to train this way. It appeals to my OCD (same thing everyday). But it is just too much volume with judo or bjj. Same with something like ladders multiple times a week or 50/20 (which works great but not while you are going to class every night).

Best training plan for the recreational athlete imho is lift two days a week - something like the "Isaac Hayes Template" that has been discussed here. Two days of lifting, two days of liss/lsd, and two days of something like YRG (which also gives a cardio hit).

As far as specifics of lifting go I think there are a multitude of good 2 day a week programs out there. Most have an A & B Program. I prefer something intelligently hittish that can be auto-regulated like the modified Delorme (10 Reps at 50%,5 reps at 75%,AMRAP at 100%) or 5/3/1. Double and Triple Progression also works well - something like 3x3 to 5x3 to 3x5 to 5x5; add weight start at the beginning. Straight 5x5 every week like SS and StrongLifts has never been a favorite while doing bjj/judo, a lot of people love it.

Right now I am doing J.V. Askem's 2 Day Abbreviated Program from Milo (I wanted more Power Cleans and Overhead Presses):
Day1:
1 Clean + 3 Presses + 2 Push Presses
SLDL/RDL
Speed Squats

Day 2
Power Cleans
Heavy Squats
Inclines

All Squats done with Safety Squat Bar.

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by Bram » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:29 pm

I think some light bodybuilding with a few stabilization exercises is a good bet. Throw in some plyo's with the workout or on another day if you want.

Like a Westside for Skinny Bastards 3-day template for example.

Being able to resist an arm-bar or a knee bar for another second and safely tap can make those biceps curls or ham curls worth the addition.
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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by SubClaw » Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:07 pm

As a longlife martial artist (more than 20 years doing Kyokushinkai Karate, 10+ years doing Boxing/Kickboxing/Muay Thai and an avid Judo and Krav Maga practitioner nowadays) I can say a minimalist approach is the way to go.

Three reps, three sets, three minute rest between the three exercises, three different sessions, three times a week. Simple, short and to the point.

Session A: RDL (conventional DL is way too taxing), OHP and chins.

Session B: high bar squat, Pendlay row and bench press.

Session C: hip thrusts (magic manna for the common grappler), Yates row and dips.

Throw some sprints, loaded carries and swings into the mix (one session a week, no more), add three of four E-A-S-Y LISS cardio (the Maffetone way) between 30 and 60 minutes (easy, tonic runs) and you're golden.

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by SubClaw » Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:38 pm

I'd also like to try a new approach, though: Dan John's Southwood program or, maybe, really heavy complexes.

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by tonkadtx » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:49 pm

That's a good looking program Subclaw.

There was a guy on Dan's forum who does Martial Arts who does something similar. If I remember correctly - He started with the 40 Day, found lifting everyday was too much while doing MA, then switched to every other day, and finally modified it to this. Looks interesting. I may give it a try when I finish what I am doing. I still like some kind of double progression.
My current program is rather simple:

Week One:

Mon-Wed-Fri alternating these two workouts:

3x3 TBDL, 3x3 press and 3x3 pull ups (weighted).

3x3 front squats, 3x3 Pendlay rows and 3x3 dips (weighted).

Tue-Thu: Maffetone running.

Week Two:

Mon-Wed-Fri: Maffetone running.

Tue-Thu alternating these two workouts:

3x3 TBDL, 3x3 press and 3x3 pull ups (weighted).

3x3 front squats, 3x3 Pendlay rows and 3x3 dips (weighted).

All lifts are done with 60%-80% of my sorta max 1RM, always keeping at least two reps in the tank. All the running is done breathing through my nose only (that means a comfortable, sustainable pace) for 30-45 mins tops.

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by SubClaw » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:44 pm

tonkadtx wrote:That's a good looking program Subclaw.

There was a guy on Dan's forum who does Martial Arts who does something similar. If I remember correctly - He started with the 40 Day, found lifting everyday was too much while doing MA, then switched to every other day, and finally modified it to this. Looks interesting. I may give it a try when I finish what I am doing. I still like some kind of double progression.
My current program is rather simple:

Week One:

Mon-Wed-Fri alternating these two workouts:

3x3 TBDL, 3x3 press and 3x3 pull ups (weighted).

3x3 front squats, 3x3 Pendlay rows and 3x3 dips (weighted).

Tue-Thu: Maffetone running.

Week Two:

Mon-Wed-Fri: Maffetone running.

Tue-Thu alternating these two workouts:

3x3 TBDL, 3x3 press and 3x3 pull ups (weighted).

3x3 front squats, 3x3 Pendlay rows and 3x3 dips (weighted).

All lifts are done with 60%-80% of my sorta max 1RM, always keeping at least two reps in the tank. All the running is done breathing through my nose only (that means a comfortable, sustainable pace) for 30-45 mins tops.
That was me. :idea:

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:04 am

I know nothing about PJ arts but Mike Israetel of the Juggloo Synidcate does PL/BB and a decently high level and competes in BJJ. I find him to be pretty compelling writer. He is also a juice monkey. YMMV.
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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by TomFurman » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:53 pm

I've had good luck with martial arts clients.. Probably luck, but maybe a trick that works once in a while.
BJJ training comes first, second and third.. however there are things to make you stronger and keep you healthy.
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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by tonkadtx » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:08 pm

I really like your "Armour of War", Tom. I think bodyweight plus deadlifts would be a good way to train in general for a lot of athletic pursuits (and general health). I find as a larger person (read fatass), I get better results with barbells.

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by Holland Oates » Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:57 pm

Speaking as someone who trains BJJ 4 to 5 times a week, works 40 to 60 hours a week on nights, and has a family. Do as little extra work as you can get by with and do as much super low intensity cardio as you can squeeze in.

I prefer kettlebells over barbells simply because they don't beat me up as much and I have a GS coach when keeps me from doing dumbshit.

I'm half the strength I was 2 years ago and I handle big boys and even college wrestlers as I rapidly approach 40.
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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by SubClaw » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:51 am

Holland Oates wrote:Speaking as someone who trains BJJ 4 to 5 times a week, works 40 to 60 hours a week on nights, and has a family.
I don't know how you do it. Many moons ago I spent almost a year working on nights and it's the worst.

It really fucked me up: no sleep, shitty appetite, sugar cravings, no energy at all, mood swings...
I prefer kettlebells over barbells simply because they don't beat me up as much and I have a GS coach when keeps me from doing dumbshit.
This is not the first time I read GS might be a good choice for the martial artist. Which leads me to ponder about KB complexes. What do you think?

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by Holland Oates » Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:12 am

It's all about throttle control.-BD

Kettle complexes may be fine so long as you don't go HAM!

GS is about pacing do it discourages going balls out.

As fire as nights go it's not bad. I sleep good during the day, my diet is good simply because I love salads and the Amazon cooks enough I have plenty of real food, and I have to keep as close to my work schedule even on my days off.
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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by KingSchmaltzBagelHour » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:12 am

TomFurman wrote:I've had good luck with martial arts clients.. Probably luck, but maybe a trick that works once in a while.
BJJ training comes first, second and third.. however there are things to make you stronger and keep you healthy.
"Opinions vary". -- Dalton
That was incredibly helpful, Tom!
Nugget this please.

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by tonkadtx » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:43 pm

Hey Sub,
I may have asked in that other thread, what kind of warmup and warmup sets do you do on lifting days? I try to file away anything I think might be useful, but I can't find it if I saved it.

Thanks.

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by SubClaw » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:02 pm

tonkadtx wrote:Hey Sub,
I may have asked in that other thread, what kind of warmup and warmup sets do you do on lifting days? I try to file away anything I think might be useful, but I can't find it if I saved it.

Thanks.
Nothing special, really: a tweaked version of Steve Maxwell's Daily Dozen, some crawling, sun salutations or a Ginastica Natural flow (this part of the warm-up is fun and quite interesting for us, grapplers), and maybe a few swings and loaded carries (I tend to do them between sets, though). Nothing too strenuous.

Regarding warm-up sets, I don't do much either (keep in mind I move almost baby weights according to IGx standards; I do not consider myself a lifter, but a martial artist who lifts): maybe three progressively heavier sets and that's it. I've found that if I do my mobility work first, I don't need many warm-up sets.

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by Onan The Barbarian » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:42 pm

Thanks all for interesting contributions. I have a competition coming up so no innovations until after that, but will work on a new program after that. Still trying to decide on the balance between minimalism vs "do all my favorites", intensity vs volume, etc. etc.

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by DrDonkeyLove » Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:30 pm

IIRC BJJ successful Fat Cat did moderate weight body building stuff and was pleased with the results from old time programs. Could probably get a lot that's germane to your needs from his log.
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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by Dunn » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:27 pm

I will be honest, I've seen pretty solid returns from kettlebell and body weight work. Mostly LC, OALC, presses, swings, basic calisthenics and ring work.

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by mike.b » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:23 am

[quote="tonkadtx"]First of all, size and strength can not be discounted. I regularly beat or hang with people that are better than me (in comps or going close to 100%) by being a gorilla.[quote]

This is true and also the guys/girls who are injured all the time are the skinny ones who don't train with weights....

I've been training bjj started at the same time with a couple of friends I'm the strongest biggest and the only one who lift weights,and I'm the only one who didn't have an injury of all of us and the one who progressed the fastest and able to hold it's own with the more advanced guys when rolling.

Strength and size counts big time!! It might not make a difference at elite level but the stronger you are the more durable/resilient you are the more you are able to train,the faster you progress.

And also people don't fuck with you when training/sparring/rolling they respect you more and treat you/approach you different if you're a gorilla.....at least that's what I've noticed so far I get my ass whopped off course like everyone else but strength and size sure makes a fucking big difference and makes everything easier.

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by Batboy2/75 » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:50 pm

I'm with Sub Claw. I believe in a minimalist approach in regards to Strength Training and Martial Arts.

However, nothing is stopping a person from creating an off season where a martial artists concentrates on strength. This requires a the practitioner to dial everything else back to minimal. Something most marital artists are incapable of doing mentally.
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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by mike.b » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:59 pm

I do this 2 times/ week

Workout A

Barbell Complex:-Power Clean x5-8
-Bradford Press x5-8
-Jump back Squat x5-8
-Good mornings x5-8

Strength Work Bench 3x3/Chest supported Row barbell 3x3 /Fat bar curls 3x5

Workout B

Barbell Complex: -Power pull
-Neider Press
-Front Squat
-SLDL/RDL

Strength Work: Power clean 3x3 / Back squat 3x3 / Weighted Fat grip pullups 3x5.

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by Ripe Turd » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:25 pm

i started Wendler's recommandation from one of his articles:

2 day split
A: squat 531, bench 531, assistance work (dips, chins, back extensions)
B: deadlift 531, press 531, assistance work (dips, chins, back extensions)

So far I like it. Eventually, I'd like to buy a half-bodyweight kettlebell to do swings and getups following the Simple&Sinister book. I worry it would not be enough, but it would probably be. (I do 3 hours of karate class weekly and I try to get 1 hour at home on the other days).

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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by TomFurman » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:14 pm

Ripe Turd wrote:i started Wendler's recommandation from one of his articles:

2 day split
A: squat 531, bench 531, assistance work (dips, chins, back extensions)
B: deadlift 531, press 531, assistance work (dips, chins, back extensions)

So far I like it. Eventually, I'd like to buy a half-bodyweight kettlebell to do swings and getups following the Simple&Sinister book. I worry it would not be enough, but it would probably be. (I do 3 hours of karate class weekly and I try to get 1 hour at home on the other days).
For Karate.. that could work. I had a client, before working with me, who thought adding 15 pounds of bodyweight with 5-3-1 would help his BJJ. He ended up with lots of fatigue and bigger oblique/fat depots from consuming the calories for energy. He was on the mats 6X per week, which is A LOT. Straight 5-3-1 without assistance [many BJJ classes start with mindless cals] would be the ticket in my estimation. S & S with some ringwork and an airborne lunge would be good to go.
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Re: Pajama arts (BJJ) plus weight training

Post by Ripe Turd » Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:03 pm

TomFurman wrote:
Ripe Turd wrote:i started Wendler's recommandation from one of his articles:

2 day split
A: squat 531, bench 531, assistance work (dips, chins, back extensions)
B: deadlift 531, press 531, assistance work (dips, chins, back extensions)

So far I like it. Eventually, I'd like to buy a half-bodyweight kettlebell to do swings and getups following the Simple&Sinister book. I worry it would not be enough, but it would probably be. (I do 3 hours of karate class weekly and I try to get 1 hour at home on the other days).
For Karate.. that could work. I had a client, before working with me, who thought adding 15 pounds of bodyweight with 5-3-1 would help his BJJ. He ended up with lots of fatigue and bigger oblique/fat depots from consuming the calories for energy. He was on the mats 6X per week, which is A LOT. Straight 5-3-1 without assistance [many BJJ classes start with mindless cals] would be the ticket in my estimation. S & S with some ringwork and an airborne lunge would be good to go.
I tried Starting Strength before, but my hips were always sore and it impeded my kicks (probably too much squats).

I agree on "mindless cals", I hate doing pushups, half-squats, bench dips etc. at karate; I mean, I'm paying to get feedback on my techniques and to learn sparring, not to do basic cals. It ain't "armor building" nor developping my strength, just making me tired.

Also, my goal is progressing on strength and keeping injuries away, not gaining weight (I'm about 82 kg right now). The 2 day split from Wendler has little total volume, so I'm not too much sore and my weight is stable. I'd like to try something like "40 days workout", low intensity and high frequency, but no way can I go to the gym more than 2 (maybe 3) times a week right now.

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