Dan John game-changer strength standards

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Danny John » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:41 pm

An easy and obvious thing
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:51 pm

Danny John wrote:It's hard to read past the crap here



"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:05 pm

The highly amusing bit is how many people on this very board will fawn through a pile of standards used to screen groups of people (in most cases youths and or fat better athletes than this board has seen) and begin applying them individually in hopes of capturing some illusory benefit. Specialness by way of meeting someone else's minimum.

Whatever one's motivation for creating or reviewing "standards"..remember their central purpose. To address groups of people, not individuals.
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by stanley_white » Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:09 pm

Danny John wrote: From the slide: "It gets us thinking about everybody else's standards."
Concur.

Thank you!

-Stan

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Danny John » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:09 am

Thanks for quoting that, Stanley: "It gets us thinking about everybody else's standards."" Some idiots miss that central point.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:03 am

Danny John wrote:Thanks for quoting that, Stanley: "It gets us thinking about everybody else's standards."" Some idiots miss that central point.
Some idiots come to igx and whine when people point out that in fact, guru shit stinks like regular shit.

:) cheers
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:33 am

Measurements and standards are important, especially for those whom don't have the background to know where to start.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Danny John » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:42 am

Great point, Shaf. I wish I could type slow enough for some people.
Here is the thing: There are thousands of young men stronger than all of these "whattobees" as my brother, Gary, used to say. He also said: better to be a hasbeen than a wanttobee.
Yep, Millions of high school boys are stronger than your wildest dreams. Sorry to say that...

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:54 am

Danny John wrote:Great point, Shaf. I wish I could type slow enough for some people.
Here is the thing: There are thousands of young men stronger than all of these "whattobees" as my brother, Gary, used to say. He also said: better to be a hasbeen than a wanttobee.
Yep, Millions of high school boys are stronger than your wildest dreams. Sorry to say that...


Despite the fact this is patently untrue..( I have pretty wild dreams and have had the honor of training with a couple of the strongest living humans) ... which was your point?

No one with a pair of descended testicles is threatened by "standards" or the achievement of other athletes. Just like no one with an ounce of common sense expects a free pass and a gilded dildo on Igx.

For real...this is a context problem. Your charts have utility in a very specific context....a context they were not brought up in or commented on here. We all know exactly why these standards get paraded about in this context which is the same reason they get extruded on t nation.... Some misguided "look at me meeting the minimums"...something I would argue is at odds (shaf) with teaching beginners to understand context...

Oh look it's that word again


It takes a peculiar form of narcissism to miss that underlying construct.
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Danny John » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:28 am

Well, this was fun. I will be honored to answer any other questions about standards as they come up. Looking at some of these...like the 200 snatch and 300 clean, I think we can all see that the entry way to elite athletics is not necessarily through the weightroom...anyone can do these lifts.

Like I said, these numbers are pretty much the standard of many HS football teams, what you do with these numbers is the key.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Danny John » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:35 am

http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifti ... dards.html
This is an odd set of standards.
No opinion on it, but just be wary of the "Elite" numbers. Like try to point out: Enough is enough.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:46 am

"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill



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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Danny John » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:51 am

I'm not sure how this fits into the fact one can't lift as much as a typical 16 year old boy, but "Yeah, for us/me."


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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:56 am

who exactly the fuck do you think fits the definition of weaker than a high school boy?
Danny John wrote:I'm not sure how this fits into the fact one can't lift as much as a typical 16 year old boy, but "Yeah, for us/me."

Most of the people responding to the OP are pretty decently strong and very few are strength athletes. But if you intend to extole the virtue of generic standards and then malign posters for not meeting it, then do be kind enough to specify who you are you shitting on and to what end?

I mean really...this goes to your original point (almost a decade ago when you had one) most of your HS boys would get wadded up like origami swans by some of my female strength athletes, many would get stapled by the opening events in a women's strongman class......does this have meaning in the greater context? Not much....but it's instructive to note that standards are just that useless when taken out of context. Field athletes are not strength athletes and vice versa. DUH

I don't think anyone here objects to the idea of standards and measure as being useful...especially in the "what's strong enough" context. But as a coach you can't even pretend that this first screen is musch more than a thumbnail sketch of what to do next....Coaching is playing the ball as it lies. look to the individual. Strengths, Weaknesses, opportunities, threats.

I know that does not play well on T Nation.
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by ccrow » Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:52 am

Is there a standard that identifies a tendency to get too riled up by forum discussions?

So, not that I could give a shit, but I googled and found the t-nutsack article and the blog post that it I'd assume it came from

http://danjohn.net/2013/04/strength-sta ... n-seattle/

I say this at the risk of being an asshole (but very little risk of being the biggest asshole, that's one of the nice things about IGX) these articles are just filler. It's probably a couple thousand dollars for the writer, it gets people to the t-nation site, it gives nutsack readers something to read, everybody's happy.

Until everyone fights over it like the Koran. Don't be a rube. It's filler. It doesn't start or go anywhere, it isn't a program, it isn't a book, not even a $0.99 ebook, it's just a free article. I don't hang much on it. Posting it on an obscure, fading board to generate some discussion is one of the very few things it is good for. A wise man once said, "It isn't the story, it's the telling" this is likewise, it isn't the article, it's the discussion.

PS - OHSQ BWx15 is in the blog post :) Meatplow only did it so he could be the second nuttiest fruitcake that ever did it.
But when I stand in front of the mirror and really look, I wonder: What the fuck happened here? Jesus Christ. What a beating!

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Danny John » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:33 pm

ccrow, I think Shaf was there...and Gary...when the 15 numbers got into the program. Wil Heffernan came out to the house and we all trained for three days. I had much higher numbers for reps and percents and just flat out load (like you "must" clean 200 or whatever). Wil is the one who really got me out of the "more, more, more" mentality in the weightroom.

I had been really influenced by Greg Shepherd's BFS numbers, but, like most people, in a career you simply aren't going to have many kids that fit his numbers (I have those charts somewhere, too) I had a kid deadlift 600 back in the 1980s and I thought "magic" would happen in football. He was good, certainly, but other kids, less wow in the weightroom, played just as well...many better.

So, I use the standards simply as "enough is enough" on one end and as a lever to explain to people that "here is an issue." Track, football, probably rugby and a few other sports have them and I am not sure they have much value outside of it. That is why I posted Nate's and Paul's above as a nice little "get to this level."

The reason I wanted to make a note here is that the Overhead Squat in the blogpost is Paul's list. Paul doesn't use it any more, but the internet is immortal.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by climber511 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:52 pm

It's the "enough is enough" part where I think many struggle (mostly people who place too much importance on the weight room as it relates to a given sport). Standards set using numbers for "lifters" - while interesting - often have little to do with "sport" performance after a certain base level of strength (and lifting skill) - with some sports demanding much higher strength levels than others of course. At my age I am a washed up "never really was" so I find these standards interesting as "test pieces" to try - it's fun to try and meet standards set for a HS football player at nearly 70 years old - not important to anything of course but sort of fun to try now and then.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Danny John » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:29 pm

Right. So using the standards as a goal makes sense to me, if I understand this fully. When I first lifted, we had Levels in O lifting and guys would go to meets and try to make a lift just to pop up into the next rung. Any time you have something like this, it really seems to work. Nick Rains has something called "["

http://www.otpbooks.com/mm5/merchant.mv ... C&AFFIL=DJ

These are monthly tests and the people I met at Leeds who used it told me that their clients will practice the tests to get to the next wrist band.

I know some other gyms that get people to compete to improve their FMS score with, again, wristbands...which sounds crazy, but I think it is a good way to motivate people to work on mobility or flexibility issues.

I think you can see the problems with dropping something like this "out of nowhere" into a gym setting. Like the 200 pound snatch standard for a Pole Vaulter, if the athlete has never done them, tossing them in...the process of learning another complex movement...might not be of any benefit. I think that is why the 300 pound clean and 350-400 pound squat is so universal: it would be a rare situation where a coach (sport or strength) didn't use the clean or squat at some level.

Look at Nate's standards again for you now. They might be a nice target for most of us.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:38 pm

FMS wristbands.
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Boris » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:34 pm

When I was a competitive swimmer, there were 3 D1 All-American distance swimmers on my team. Two of them could do 15+ pull-ups any day of the week. One couldn't do a single pull-up and eschewed any and all weight room work... The two who were strong continued to make the gainz - I don't think that's a coincidence.

So, what's the lesson there? I think it's that having a reserve of strength gives you room to grow technically and tactically, even for distance athletes... But that's just my opinion...

If I get my male swimmers to the following standards, they are probably "strong enough":

*10 Chins/Pull-Ups
*40 Push-Ups
*Squat 135lbs x 10

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Danny John » Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:56 pm

That sounds right. Can I use these?

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Boris » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:29 pm

Absolutely! I would note that most D1 swimmers would be able to do these - the really lanky ones, maybe not...

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