Dan John game-changer strength standards

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by TerryB » Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:12 pm

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by climber511 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:43 pm

You can't train to be 7' tall - and you can't train to run a sub 10 hundred meters unless you're almost there anyway. Speed is born into you - training can only help a very little bit.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by powerlifter54 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:23 pm

If you are a D1 FB coach with 150 studs out there for the most part you are trying to get them strongER, and to an extent bigger for some kids. But you are 6 deep at each position and can get more next year.

But if you are HS coach at an average or smaller HS you got what you got. And if you have one big fat kid and bunch of 6 foot 1 inch 185lb freshman lineman you need to work with what you got and understand your limitations. Work on getting the fat kid to move his feet use his hands and stay vertical in the torso(sign him up for wrestling team) and grow those freshman into 225lb seniors. In HS i was one of the 3 strongest on my FB team. i was also the smallest. Never could rely on my strength in a game. Later, post college, in rugby i had a 260lb second row who could help me stop the mass of my opposing prop. Then when it came to leg drive and positioning it was all over.

Often in HS gaining size is more important relatively than strength.
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:37 pm

Anecdotally, I got a huge boost in speed when

1. I could squat over 405 for 3.
2. I could stiff leg deadlift 315 for 3.

This was at a body weight of 200-210 and I was 20-21. I could still only bench press 225x3. I went from being 'middle of the road' fast for rugby to "fast". Never the fastest guy on the team, but I also developed 'functional agility' at high speeds, so I could change direction, accelerate, and decelerate quickly.

Another anecdote: When I started power cleaning instead of doing the SLDL, I seemed to improve my agility on the field over what it was previously. The inflection point was around a body weight x 3 power clean...this was a few years later and adding push presses to that improved my lineout play as a lifter.

So, when I have worked with marginal athletes in the past, I've worked on getting them stronger, and I would see improvements in velocity. Note that these were the slow, the fat, the lazy, the nonathletic, the uncoordinated.

I worked with a few kids who were super fast and athletic. Their football coach almost ruined them with junk conditioning. 2 of them went on to play for state colleges. The other is in jail. The coach felt running 20 100 yard sprints the Wednesday before the game was the best way to get ready. This is apparently the group-think in Mid-Michigan, because I found out later that many other football teams did the same thing. Once I talked the coach out of that practice, and it took a lot of doing, the team was much crisper.

Random dumb of off topic shit.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:47 pm

Well...that's actually more on point with the notion of game changer than the balance of this thread. When we shift from Jack's example of screening and improving 150 contenders and look at what's it take to make an individual a contender..it's a radically different question. Once that we are singularly poor at answering in this country.

This is probably one of the reasons PL training is such a useful tool. In PL and OL, we are constantly developing an understanding how different body types and different forms can be adapted. This is much harder in more athletic pursuits...which tells me that's a place worth spending energy looking for individual improvements.
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by powerlifter54 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:48 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Well...that's actually more on point with the notion of game changer than the balance of this thread. When we shift from Jack's example of screening and improving 150 contenders and look at what's it take to make an individual a contender..it's a radically different question. Once that we are singularly poor at answering in this country.

This is probably one of the reasons PL training is such a useful tool. In PL and OL, we are constantly developing an understanding how different body types and different forms can be adapted. This is much harder in more athletic pursuits...which tells me that's a place worth spending energy looking for individual improvements.


Eric Cressey told me when he works with gifted pitchers he cannot do a variety of things because one of the things that makes them great is congenital laxness in their shoulders and elbows. So a lot of pressing movements can be disastrous. What he has seen is mostly they need work on their drive leg, their nonthrowing side upper back, and the assymetyries that come from pitching. The plant leg gets a lot of eccentric work from throwing on a mound, and the throwing side upper back musculature is usually hypertonic. Basically he spends most of the offseason unscrewing them until they start the offseason long tossing prep for the season. He hates year round baseball since it leaves no recovery/rehab time.

For gifted populations you protect them and keep it simple. The further you move back to the mean or below you have to work harder to individualize for each athlete's specific weaknesses and their specific sport, while getting lesser results in the sport. My experience is when i work with almost anybody not at a high level we have to clean up almost every movement's technique. Just getting them stronger in the basics with a few targeted assistance movements, while not leaving them dragging in the dirt seems to be the normal best path.
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Boris » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:42 am

climber511 wrote:Speed is born into you - training can only help a very little bit.
That's garbage actually. I know a ton of kids that can and do train to become fuck-ton faster. I'm not talking about outliers.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:33 am

Boris wrote:
climber511 wrote:Speed is born into you - training can only help a very little bit.
That's garbage actually. I know a ton of kids that can and do train to become fuck-ton faster. I'm not talking about outliers.

Totally agree Boris.

I've personally seen this pretty often. Speed is a skill like strength. Fiber make up is not, muscle attachments are not but intramuscular coordination and raw speed is something you can teach...and strength training is one of the tools.
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by The Ginger Beard Man » Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:49 am

Boris wrote:
climber511 wrote:Speed is born into you - training can only help a very little bit.
That's garbage actually. I know a ton of kids that can and do train to become fuck-ton faster. I'm not talking about outliers.
As a freshman and sophomore hs "sprinter", I was slow. I never got out of the first heat in anything they tried me at, 100s, 200s, 400s. It didn't matter.
But I was constantly in the weight room and got stronger and bigger. By the time I played lacrosse as a junior and senior, I had good speed and athleticism. As a college a college freshman I moved to defense to long stick middie because I had "wheels".
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by climber511 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:24 pm

Please read my entire post - I stand behind what I said. Of course people can train and get faster, even "fast" in a general sport kind of way - but sub ten 100 meters kind of fast (which is what I wrote) is born into you - or not.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by climber511 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:34 pm

The Ginger Beard Man wrote:
Boris wrote:
climber511 wrote:Speed is born into you - training can only help a very little bit.
That's garbage actually. I know a ton of kids that can and do train to become fuck-ton faster. I'm not talking about outliers.
As a freshman and sophomore hs "sprinter", I was slow. I never got out of the first heat in anything they tried me at, 100s, 200s, 400s. It didn't matter.
But I was constantly in the weight room and got stronger and bigger. By the time I played lacrosse as a junior and senior, I had good speed and athleticism. As a college a college freshman I moved to defense to long stick middie because I had "wheels".
Not to be argumentative but you also went from being a "kid" to becoming a young "man" in that 4 or 5 year period of time. While the weight room certainly played a big role in developing your speed change - so did the age and size change that would have occurred anyway at that period of your life (puberty is good for something).

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:10 pm

climber511 wrote:Please read my entire post - I stand behind what I said. Of course people can train and get faster, even "fast" in a general sport kind of way - but sub ten 100 meters kind of fast (which is what I wrote) is born into you - or not.

I don think there's any disagreement at all. Deep in the background is this tension between two schools of thought.

Thing one. Success in athletics (and everything else probably) is largely predetermined by unalterable genetic makeup. We should select for those with the most potential.

Thing two. Anyone can improve to a certain degree by focused effort. Some of the greatest athletes in sport started off with a certain amount of genetic capital which they improved upon through diligent work.

Theses are both true, depending on where your experience lies on the spectrum you'll favor one school of thought over another.

I did a world throws center workshop with John Godina last year, his perspective on this was really refreshing..,, and lacked the breezy arrogance typical of the track and field community.
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Really Big Strong Guy » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:10 pm

ironically, I've read the initial post on this thread and realized that I can do all of it save the bodyweight bench x 15. Honestly, given some recent shoulder injuries I'm slowly rebuilding my shoulder strength. That said, my performances in my sport has suffered not because of my commitment to being strong, but because of my lack of commitment to what it takes to be successful in my sport. I lost track of that over the past few years. I did not realize this until a recent trip put me cutting harder timbers - which requires more deliberate delivery; if not a quest for perfection with axe delivery. Then I returned from the trip and attended a yoga class with my wife, on a lark, that made me realize that my thoracic rotational mobility was compromised because of the hinge/pull strength I've focused on the past four to five years. I am an avid yoga-ier. I do a routine often twice daily (at a minimum of once daily), but that routine has remained static the past few years. Attending the yoga class made me realize that I am very accomplished and flexible on the hinge/pull plane with good hip and shoulder mobility - but I have lost a good deal of transverse or rotational flexibility and mobility. I need that for my sport. I need it badly. I need the stretch reflex to generate rotational force.

Always good to wake up and realize you are not done. And that you can still improve. Even if it is in a limited fashion. Despite advanced age.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Grandpa's Spells » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:27 pm

climber511 wrote:
The Ginger Beard Man wrote:
Boris wrote:
climber511 wrote:Speed is born into you - training can only help a very little bit.
That's garbage actually. I know a ton of kids that can and do train to become fuck-ton faster. I'm not talking about outliers.
As a freshman and sophomore hs "sprinter", I was slow. I never got out of the first heat in anything they tried me at, 100s, 200s, 400s. It didn't matter.
But I was constantly in the weight room and got stronger and bigger. By the time I played lacrosse as a junior and senior, I had good speed and athleticism. As a college a college freshman I moved to defense to long stick middie because I had "wheels".
Not to be argumentative but you also went from being a "kid" to becoming a young "man" in that 4 or 5 year period of time. While the weight room certainly played a big role in developing your speed change - so did the age and size change that would have occurred anyway at that period of your life (puberty is good for something).
He also stopped competing against fast kids at being fast. LOLacrosse
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Boris » Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:03 pm

climber511 wrote:Please read my entire post - I stand behind what I said. Of course people can train and get faster, even "fast" in a general sport kind of way - but sub ten 100 meters kind of fast (which is what I wrote) is born into you - or not.
Relax. I read the entire post - I wrote that I was not talking about outliers. Speed is trainable. That's all I'm saying. Not sure why we would argue against that in a training forum...

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by climber511 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:28 pm

One of the problems when talking about speed is we generally talk about our personal experiences - which are mostly from high school when the maturation process results in more speed changes than the training we do. Only changes developed as an adult will truly show the results of our training in a stand alone fashion. I guess I fall into the camp which believes speed is a genetic trait which can only be enhanced a relatively small amount through training. To talk about "speed" we are actually only talking about track and field where accurate measurements are done - too many other attributes apply in other sports - like quickness (which is not really speed) and the ability to feint - shift etc - things which are more greatly affected by strength and other training methods.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:50 pm

climber511 wrote:One of the problems when talking about speed is we generally talk about our personal experiences - which are mostly from high school when the maturation process results in more speed changes than the training we do. Only changes developed as an adult will truly show the results of our training in a stand alone fashion. I guess I fall into the camp which believes speed is a genetic trait which can only be enhanced a relatively small amount through training. To talk about "speed" we are actually only talking about track and field where accurate measurements are done - too many other attributes apply in other sports - like quickness (which is not really speed) and the ability to feint - shift etc - things which are more greatly affected by strength and other training methods.

One of the things I was most struck by a My USATF coaching clinic was how much emphasis they put on speed being an absolute quality that was pretty much set by genetics.... but at the same time, this quality is still very much a skill that is trainable and more importantly, it's a skill that takes some people longer to develop. That's not my personal experience, thats the reported experience of several hundred career T&F coaches.


Usain Bolt may have won the genetic lottery....he still practices and hones his skill. The same is true if velodrome cycling (the equivalent of track and field), the ultimate ability may be set but revealing that ability took me, for one, a long time..I had to unlearn a number of things to realize my fast twitch potential. The either or attitude is what is crippling to a lot of people.....worse yet...Genetic determinism is just fodder for excuses. If only the NFL wouldn't suck up the talent..blah blah blah..IME, the most physically talented people rarely win...it's the very gifted, who also bust ass and who also are smart enough to listen to their body and also got the right coaches and also have the right mindset to deal with the sport at hand. Yes...if all the huge fast tight ends in the NFL decided to throw shot put we'd have more genetic potential but the mindset to withstand the training is every bit as important.
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by climber511 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:15 pm

It's always going to be that combination of genetic "potential" meeting up with the rest of the package mentally and physically. Sometimes it seems at the very highest levels who just plain believes they will win. The mental game is big.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by SubClaw » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:26 pm

Being able to run 100 meters under 10 seconds is something you are born with.

Being able to squat over 1000 lbs. is something you are born with.

Anything truly elite is something you are born with... and bust your ass off for.

I'm not a fast individual, but I have improved my natural shitty speed a great deal over the years. I know I will never be considered truly fast, but being as fast as you can be (however shitty it may be) is a good thing.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by SubClaw » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:22 am

Really Big Strong Guy wrote:I am an avid yoga-ier. I do a routine often twice daily (at a minimum of once daily), but that routine has remained static the past few years.
Can you, please, share the routine?

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Really Big Strong Guy » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:22 pm

SubClaw wrote:
Really Big Strong Guy wrote:I am an avid yoga-ier. I do a routine often twice daily (at a minimum of once daily), but that routine has remained static the past few years.
Can you, please, share the routine?
It was designed by a private instructor who observed my infirmities (hip and shoulder at the time) and had me do movements that focused on those areas. Began with slow movements/poses that hit the hamstrings, calves, then moved to hip specialization with various warrior and child poses. Then moved to the shoulders with unconventional poses that I'm not sure are named. Now, I'm very good at those areas... and now I need to find things that limber up my power belly. Off to a class tonight as my private instructor moved away 8 years ago. Wish I could be more specific.
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Bram » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:55 pm

Really Big Strong Guy wrote:
SubClaw wrote:
Really Big Strong Guy wrote:I am an avid yoga-ier. I do a routine often twice daily (at a minimum of once daily), but that routine has remained static the past few years.
Can you, please, share the routine?
It was designed by a private instructor who observed my infirmities (hip and shoulder at the time) and had me do movements that focused on those areas. Began with slow movements/poses that hit the hamstrings, calves, then moved to hip specialization with various warrior and child poses. Then moved to the shoulders with unconventional poses that I'm not sure are named. Now, I'm very good at those areas... and now I need to find things that limber up my power belly. Off to a class tonight as my private instructor moved away 8 years ago. Wish I could be more specific.
I hope you keep your old routine up as you look for ways to mix up your yoga.
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Sua Sponte » Wed Sep 30, 2015 5:58 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Anecdotally, I got a huge boost in speed when

1. I could squat over 405 for 3.
2. I could stiff leg deadlift 315 for 3.
Any idea which, if either, contributed more to the improvement? It's always been my understanding that the posterior chain, the hamstrings and glutes, contributed more to sprint speed than the quads.

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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Really Big Strong Guy » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:01 pm

Bram wrote:
Really Big Strong Guy wrote:
SubClaw wrote:
Really Big Strong Guy wrote:I am an avid yoga-ier. I do a routine often twice daily (at a minimum of once daily), but that routine has remained static the past few years.
Can you, please, share the routine?
It was designed by a private instructor who observed my infirmities (hip and shoulder at the time) and had me do movements that focused on those areas. Began with slow movements/poses that hit the hamstrings, calves, then moved to hip specialization with various warrior and child poses. Then moved to the shoulders with unconventional poses that I'm not sure are named. Now, I'm very good at those areas... and now I need to find things that limber up my power belly. Off to a class tonight as my private instructor moved away 8 years ago. Wish I could be more specific.
I hope you keep your old routine up as you look for ways to mix up your yoga.
I am. I am simply going to add new movements that put my thoracic area in a stretch position.

Which kinda sucks, as I now spend more time doing stuff to lift stuff than actually lifting stuff.
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Re: Dan John game-changer strength standards

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:11 pm

Really Big Strong Guy wrote: Which kinda sucks, as I now spend more time doing stuff to lift stuff than actually lifting stuff.

When I accepted this fact...life got easier.

and I got stronger.

and I stopped getting hurt as much.

and now that i think about it...i might have learned this from you at Malvern...

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