Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Stick to training related posts.

Moderators: Dux, seeahill

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21114
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:54 pm

engaging in something you are not great at or know little about is probably very healthy for keeping the mind agile.

as long as it's not hurting you other places

dkay
Sarge
Posts: 188
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:44 am

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by dkay » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:27 am

I like this thread bc it bridges the numbers and "how I feel" gap. Visited my 80 yo dad (broken down and feeling it by heart attacks and 2 major strokes - like his dad but not his brothers who are still healthy despite similar lifestyle)in his retirement condo yesterday. One of his colleagues died last Friday. 86 - lived in his own house, totally self sufficient, still worked as a professor emeritus several days a week, RODE his bike everywhere, died in his sleep. Genetics or practices - I don't know, but that was a life and death well lived until the end. To die peacefully in apparent good health.

TomFurman
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 9806
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:46 am
Location: Ft. Lauderdale

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by TomFurman » Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:47 am

Well, I can't agree with the jury is out on Fish Oil. Here are a lot of resources for data.

Mae Mollica - http://www.brinkzone.com/articles/fish- ... le-growth/
Martin Berkhan - http://www.leangains.com/2011/05/omega- ... rowth.html
Alan Aragon - http://alanaragon.com/fish-oil.html
Lyle McDonald - http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/qa-2.html/
Examine.com - http://examine.com/supplements/Fish+Oil
"There is only one God, and he doesn't dress like that". - - Captain America

bennyonesix
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2710
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:25 am

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by bennyonesix » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:00 am

I'm convinced taking care of your teeth is huge.

But I am convinced of lots of things, and those things change.

So, there you go.

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:35 am

TomFurman wrote:Well, I can't agree with the jury is out on Fish Oil. Here are a lot of resources for data.

Mae Mollica - http://www.brinkzone.com/articles/fish- ... le-growth/
Martin Berkhan - http://www.leangains.com/2011/05/omega- ... rowth.html
Alan Aragon - http://alanaragon.com/fish-oil.html
Lyle McDonald - http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/qa-2.html/
Examine.com - http://examine.com/supplements/Fish+Oil
Guess how I know you've spent too much time in this game?

The bro science is in. Luckily real science is still cracking along.

There are a half dozen citations in the attached.

https://chriskresser.com/should-you-rea ... -fish-oil/
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:52 am

There may be a number of reasons for these recent negative findings.

Most studies that found benefits of fish oil were done on people with heart disease, or heart disease risk factors, not healthy people.

A preliminary study by the University of Birmingham suggests certain ethnic groups may absorb fat more effectively and may therefore benefit more from omega-3 supplements.

Research has also not taken the effects of other medication into consideration. Although this needs to be further investigated, research by Utrecht University in the Netherlands found that fish oil supplements have no effect on people already treating their conditions with medication, but did cut risk of a second heart attack by half when not taking any other medication.

Fish consumption has doubled since 1961. An increased fish diet allows people to get an optimal amount of omega-3s, so supplements may be unnecessary.
https://theskepticalcardiologist.com/20 ... t-disease/
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

Ryan
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2923
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:53 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Ryan » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:59 pm

I have to say, I never noticed any difference from fish oil vs. just using flax seeds. If anything, I thought the flax did more.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

climber511
Gunny
Posts: 961
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:59 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by climber511 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:05 pm

I have A Fib - therefore I have a heart doctor (actually 2 of them - 1 Mercedes and 1 BMW :)) - at least my money is well spent. One is young and the other middle aged. My heart muscle and plumbing all tests out as excellent. Both told me to continue with my current "oil protocol) as I call it. Both say probably not in excess of the one tablespoon a day that I take and both like the Apple cider vinegar I take with it but say the honey isn't so good really. Both say 20 minutes a day of easy cardio (Zone 1 as I call it). Both say the lifting is good but say to cut back on the lifting that requires very heavy internal pressurization on a regular basis - not eliminate but watch it. The HITT is mixed with one doctor saying it's a good idea and the other not so sure at my age but as regards my joints more than the heart. Both say I probably eat too much junk food - to which I agree completely.

So as usual the opinions are mixed - but to be honest I think I'll go with the doctors who know my entire health history over the muscle heads who know me not at all.

User avatar
Kirk
Gunny
Posts: 668
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Kirk » Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:14 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:engaging in something you are not great at or know little about is probably very healthy for keeping the mind agile.

as long as it's not hurting you other places
Speaking of the mind I've got some history of mental issues with age on both sides of the family, lucky me. A little over a year ago I started getting serious about playing guitar/making music in the hope that I can keep my head fresh a bit longer. I need to get back into reading too (and not just internet crap).

For a while there I was putting a board on top of a piece of PVC pipe and working on balance. Yet another thing to throw on the pile and I didn't get to the point of making it habitual although I think it'd be worthwhile.

TomFurman
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 9806
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:46 am
Location: Ft. Lauderdale

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by TomFurman » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:10 am

It’s interesting to note that the fish oil plus olive oil group had better results than either the fish oil or olive oil group alone.

Nice point and good article. Thanks BD.
"There is only one God, and he doesn't dress like that". - - Captain America

climber511
Gunny
Posts: 961
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:59 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by climber511 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:41 am

If the Guru in question sells Fish Oil - then he'll tell you it's great stuff. If he doesn't it could go either way - depending if he thinks he might sell it in the future :)

User avatar
Koko, Beware
Gunny
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:29 pm
Location: Pilgrim Country

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Koko, Beware » Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:06 am

I remember when Bobby Wolf was recommending taking as much fish oil as you could until you started shitting yourself, and then the Whole30 people who were not Whole30 yet came to one of his nutrition seminars at CF Boston, followed him around for two days (basically hanging on top of him during breaks) and then all the sudden there was a Whole30 Fish Oil calculator based on his recommendations which seemed...opportune. Then I shit myself one day on my way to train a client so I started taking less and now I blame that whole thing on the unholy Whole30 duo.

N=1 but joints feel a little better when I take about a gram a day. There's a lot of shitty cardiac stuff in my family so I am wary.
In the mill, getting down.
-Kotto

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6698
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Sangoma » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:39 am

Here is the review from the Australian Heart Foundation on fish oil. It's the summary of all studies of 2008. The table on page 6 shows clear benefits of fish oil for secondary prevention and reduction of triglycerides, not so much for other outcomes.

Fish, fish oils, n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids and cardiovascular health

What's interesting is that eating actual fish demonstrates more consistent benefits. IN keeping with my selection bias I suspect the reason is in lower caloric content of fish. Once again, eating fewer calories is beneficial.
Image

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21114
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:06 pm

The Whole30 folks are/were weird. Tales of promiscuity and sociopathic behavior from her abound...that poor motherfucker had to have had an awful time married to her

Ripe Turd
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:34 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Ripe Turd » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:33 pm

What do you people think of Jim Wendler's "NOV" recommandations (his 531 plan in the gym, followed by "hard conditioning", 4 days a week).

I know LISS cardio is frequently recommended, but I have difficulty seeing how someone who's at a healthy bodyweight would "miss" LISS cardio.

I mean, if you do a main lift + 2-3 assistance exercises, and you don't take super long breaks, weight training should elevate the heart rate enough to have at least an aerobic effect? Average 120-130 BPM during the workout or something like that

+ the hard conditioning should be good for the heart, the waistline and the soul.

Or maybe it's "too much" to do hard conditioning 4 days a week?

User avatar
Koko, Beware
Gunny
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:29 pm
Location: Pilgrim Country

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Koko, Beware » Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:44 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:The Whole30 folks are/were weird. Tales of promiscuity and sociopathic behavior from her abound...that poor motherfucker had to have had an awful time married to her
Based on his haircut I didn't feel bad for him at all but point well taken. You could almost see the dollar signs in their eyes that weekend as they followed Robb around.
In the mill, getting down.
-Kotto

Ryan
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2923
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:53 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Ryan » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:02 pm

Ripe Turd wrote: I know LISS cardio is frequently recommended, but I have difficulty seeing how someone who's at a healthy bodyweight would "miss" LISS cardio.

I mean, if you do a main lift + 2-3 assistance exercises, and you don't take super long breaks, weight training should elevate the heart rate enough to have at least an aerobic effect? Average 120-130 BPM during the workout or something like that
Uh.......no. We've had many conversations on the importance of LISS on this site.
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

Ripe Turd
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:34 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Ripe Turd » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:09 pm

Yes, but importance for what?

I know plenty of old people, 80 and 90+, who never did any LISS cardio and don't have any cardiac problems...

I'm not talking about inactive people, sitting on their asses all day, everyday. Why would someone who's training at the gym 3-4 days a week, eating clean and at a healthy bodyweight need to add LISS cardio on top of that?

Ryan
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2923
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:53 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Ryan » Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:20 pm

Ripe Turd wrote:Yes, but importance for what?

I know plenty of old people, 80 and 90+, who never did any LISS cardio and don't have any cardiac problems...

I'm not talking about inactive people, sitting on their asses all day, everyday. Why would someone who's training at the gym 3-4 days a week, eating clean and at a healthy bodyweight need to add LISS cardio on top of that?
It's not just cardiac health and weight loss, but systemic health.

I'm at work, so I don't have time to type all this shit out. This covers it pretty well:

http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/blo ... ty-cardio/
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19089
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Blaidd Drwg » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:56 pm

Ripe Turd wrote:I know LISS cardio is frequently recommended, but I have difficulty seeing how someone who's at a healthy bodyweight would "miss" LISS cardio.

I mean, if you do a main lift + 2-3 assistance exercises, and you don't take super long breaks, weight training should elevate the heart rate enough to have at least an aerobic effect? Average 120-130 BPM during the workout or something like that

+ the hard conditioning should be good for the heart, the waistline and the soul.
It's not on any level. It's a marginal benefit for those already engaged in holistic routine to optimize performance. The recommendation stems from a misunderstanding of how athletes train, when most people are in fact, not athletes.
Ryan wrote:It's not just cardiac health and weight loss, but systemic health.

I'm at work, so I don't have time to type all this shit out. This covers it pretty well:

http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/blo ... ty-cardio/

That's a well done piece.

The sad truth is the only semi universally applicable exercise routine that has been show to have positive effects on health is 30 min of LISS, 3-7 days a week. Everything else pales in effectiveness.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

User avatar
Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21114
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Shafpocalypse Now » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:26 pm

You dig into Wendler and what you get is recommendations for lifting (531), hard conditioning (prowler/hill sprints/sprints), stretching (Agile 8) and daily activity like weighted walks or 20-30 minutes on a fan bike.

That last is the LISS

Wendler's 2-2-2 format...2 days of lifting, 2 days of hard conditioning, 2 days of dedicated mobility sessions also has the 3-7 days of LISS...weighted walks and fan bike again.

Now, Wendler will drop conditioning AND LISS on a program dedicated to strength and higher volumes of barbell work

User avatar
Sangoma
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6698
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by Sangoma » Wed Nov 30, 2016 8:50 pm

Ripe Turd wrote:I mean, if you do a main lift + 2-3 assistance exercises, and you don't take super long breaks, weight training should elevate the heart rate enough to have at least an aerobic effect? Average 120-130 BPM during the workout or something like that
Or you could take couple of cups of strong coffee and keep your heart rate at 130 for the whole day. This way you don't need to do cardio at all, do you?
Image

User avatar
WildGorillaMan
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 9951
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:01 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by WildGorillaMan » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:38 pm

A "couple of cups" don't even move the needle for me anymore. On top of my thermos of coffee I had a Red Bull in the car while I was out making calls, and another one with my sandwich when I got home at noon, and I feel totally normal.
Image
You'll Hurt Your Back

basically I'm Raoul Duke trying to fit into a Philip K. Dick movie remake.

User avatar
WildGorillaMan
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 9951
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 9:01 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by WildGorillaMan » Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:41 pm

I find with steady state the longer, the better. The other day on the treadmill the show I was watching ended on a "holy shit!" moment, and I HAD to watch the next episode, so I ended up doing my steady state for an hour and a half instead of forty-five minutes.

I find that if the pace is right, I feel better and more vigorous after an hour to an hour and a half than anything shorter.
Image
You'll Hurt Your Back

basically I'm Raoul Duke trying to fit into a Philip K. Dick movie remake.

dead man walking
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6797
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 10:34 pm

Re: Interesting Conversation with my Cardiologist

Post by dead man walking » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:57 pm

Sangoma wrote:
Ripe Turd wrote:I mean, if you do a main lift + 2-3 assistance exercises, and you don't take super long breaks, weight training should elevate the heart rate enough to have at least an aerobic effect? Average 120-130 BPM during the workout or something like that
Or you could take couple of cups of strong coffee and keep your heart rate at 130 for the whole day. This way you don't need to do cardio at all, do you?
i had five cups today. hr 51 bpm.
Really Big Strong Guy: There are a plethora of psychopaths among us.

Post Reply