IGX

"Privately, the president had often talked about fortifying a border wall with a water-filled trench, stocked with snakes or alligators, prompting aides to seek a cost estimate. He wanted the wall electrified, with spikes on top that could pierce human flesh. After publicly suggesting that soldiers shoot migrants if they threw rocks, the president backed off when his staff told him that was illegal. But later in a meeting, aides recalled, he suggested that they shoot migrants in the legs to slow them down. That’s not allowed either, they told him."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/01/us/p ... -wars.html

This guy....

I wouldn't believe everything you read, certainly not from (((The Times))). Don't be that easy to manipulate.


But I assume you posted this for the sake of conversation, so allow me to take a rhetorical contrary position. If you shot the first 100 coming across the border illegally, people would get the message. Not many people were sneaking into East Berlin. If that seems extreme, consider that according to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection, 7,216 people have died crossing the U.S–Mexico border between 1998 and 2017. In 2005, more than 500 died across the entire U.S.–Mexico border. So if you could truly halt the mass illegal crossings, you could actually save lives, but people would have to sack the fuck up, have a spine, and stop pretending we can cure the ailments of the Turd World by importing them here.

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:23 pm I wouldn't believe everything you read, certainly not from (((The Times))). Don't be that easy to manipulate.


But I assume you posted this for the sake of conversation, so allow me to take a rhetorical contrary position. If you shot the first 100 coming across the border illegally, people would get the message. Not many people were sneaking into East Berlin.

For the sake of conversation – isn't "sneaking out of East Berlin" the more appropriate comparison? Because tons of people were getting shot doing that. Yet they kept trying.

JimZipCode wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:58 pm

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:23 pm I wouldn't believe everything you read, certainly not from (((The Times))). Don't be that easy to manipulate.


But I assume you posted this for the sake of conversation, so allow me to take a rhetorical contrary position. If you shot the first 100 coming across the border illegally, people would get the message. Not many people were sneaking into East Berlin.

For the sake of conversation – isn't "sneaking out of East Berlin" the more appropriate comparison? Because tons of people were getting shot doing that. Yet they kept trying.

People were going in both directions on a small scale. You could make tons bootlegging western items into the East, for example. Either way, it's not material to this discussion. If you prefer to think of the flow in the other direction, fine, I chose the words I did carefully because in your illustration people would be fleeing a repressive society but you can't describe Mexico as repressive. Retrograde, yes, but not especially repressive.

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:07 pmIf you prefer to think of the flow in the other direction, fine, I chose the words I did carefully because in your illustration people would be fleeing a repressive society but you can't describe Mexico as repressive. Retrograde, yes, but not especially repressive.

Repressive or not, I thought the relevant similarity was fleeing an undesirable living situation to a desirable one.

Carry on.

That's a fair point, but isn't the one I was making, which is simply this: barriers backed up by the use of force work, and in the instance of our southern border, could actually save a lot of lives. Am I wrong?

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:47 pm That's a fair point, but isn't the one I was making, which is simply this: barriers backed up by the use of force work, and in the instance of our southern border, could actually save a lot of lives. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong, although I understand your reasoning.

First, they aren't fleeing Mexico. The net flow of Mexicans has been back towards Mexico for some time now. The people coming are coming from other Central American countries.

Second, they are doing the calculus of risk already. As you note, they are dying in the desert. It's not a secret how dangerous it is to cross into Mexico, go across Mexico, and then cross our border into desert regions. Yet they come anyway, which speaks to how desperate they are. They're already getting shot at back home, just not in the legs.

What is the purpose of a border if you don’t enforce a crossing policy?

nafod wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:28 pm

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:47 pm That's a fair point, but isn't the one I was making, which is simply this: barriers backed up by the use of force work, and in the instance of our southern border, could actually save a lot of lives. Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong, although I understand your reasoning.

First, they aren't fleeing Mexico. The net flow of Mexicans has been back towards Mexico for some time now. The people coming are coming from other Central American countries.

Second, they are doing the calculus of risk already. As you note, they are dying in the desert. It's not a secret how dangerous it is to cross into Mexico, go across Mexico, and then cross our border into desert regions. Yet they come anyway, which speaks to how desperate they are. They're already getting shot at back home, just not in the legs.

First, no, I am not wrong, although I understand your exceptionally poor reasoning. The total number of MEXICANS has fallen as of late, but the total number of people coming FROM Mexico has risen. That's a demonstrable fact and is the only thing that matters when discussing border security, so kindly take your sophistry elsewhere. I don't give a fuck what their country of origin is, they could be penguins marching in twos from the antarctic but they are passing through the Mexican-American border and thus going full ham sandwich on that border has a stern logic to it.

Second, the calculus would change if they were facing American firepower at the border and the demand for illegal entry would rapidly diminish. This is unquestionably true, and you know it. Instead, you prefer they die in the desert, fund human trafficking, create an illegal underclass, all so they can make soulless corporations wealthy preying on them?

Do prisons work insofar as they contain people? YES. Why? Because they have walls and people with guns to defend the boundaries. And no, we are not making the country into a prison, there remain many legal means of entry and exit. I've argued for a long time that we should have a better guest worker program so those Guatemalans could come here, work legally, pay taxes, and go home.

SubClaw wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:43 pm What is the purpose of a border if you don’t enforce a crossing policy?

^^^

SubClaw wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:43 pmWhat is the purpose of a border if you don’t enforce a crossing policy?

How the fuck else are students supposed to learn Geography?

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:23 pm I wouldn't believe everything you read, certainly not from (((The Times))). Don't be that easy to manipulate.

But I assume you posted this for the sake of conversation, so allow me to take a rhetorical contrary position. If you shot the first 100 coming across the border illegally, people would get the message. Not many people were sneaking into East Berlin. If that seems extreme, consider that according to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection, 7,216 people have died crossing the U.S–Mexico border between 1998 and 2017. In 2005, more than 500 died across the entire U.S.–Mexico border. So if you could truly halt the mass illegal crossings, you could actually save lives, but people would have to sack the fuck up, have a spine, and stop pretending we can cure the ailments of the Turd World by importing them here.

I really just shared it because the idea of Trump saying he wants a snake and alligator filled moat around our southern border is so goddamn ridiculous, funny, and utterly believable.

Now maybe he didn't say it, but it doesn't stretch the realm of possibility that he would have...he definitely showed pics of a spiky fence (for the flesh piercin'!).

Now as for border security/immigration....

Some sort of solution would be advisable. I'm not pro-let-anyone-in Legal immigration is a wonderful idea and should be supported. I don't know what the solution is, blasting people with guns as a standard rule and having snake pits is not it though.

Bram wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:32 amI'm not pro-let-anyone-in Legal immigration is a wonderful idea and should be supported. I don't know what the solution is, blasting people with guns as a standard rule and having snake pits is not it though.

I agree, it's not enough, but it's a start. I don't know what the next step is. Freshwater sharks? Killer bees? Vietcong?

Bram wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:32 am I really just shared it because the idea of Trump saying he wants a snake and alligator filled moat around our southern border is so goddamn ridiculous, funny, and utterly believable.

Now maybe he didn't say it, but it doesn't stretch the realm of possibility that he would have...he definitely showed pics of a spiky fence (for the flesh piercin'!)

They make it past sharks, guns, moots, and spikey fences with heads on them...they're a winner. Bring them in to the special forces. Waive their bone spur med disqualification, only pussies care about bone spurs.

Hard to be in special forces after they've been shot in the legs brah.

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:37 am Hard to be in special forces after they've been shot in the legs brah.

You can still play high level football, though. This sent me down memory lane.

Rocky Bleier played one NFL season (1968) before being shipped off to Vietnam in 1969. The battlefield proved to be much more dangerous for Bleier than the football field, and on August 20, 1969, Bleier was shot in the left leg. Moments later, an enemy grenade exploded in his vicinity, sending shrapnel into his right leg while blowing off a portion of his foot.

Bleier was awarded a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star. Miraculously, neither injury could keep Rocky from returning to the game he loved, and in 1970, after extensive rehab, Bleier suited up for the Steelers. He played with them until his retirement in 1980, winning four Super Bowls in the process.

Crazy stuff

Well damn, that's a cool story.

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:39 am

Bram wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:32 amI'm not pro-let-anyone-in Legal immigration is a wonderful idea and should be supported. I don't know what the solution is, blasting people with guns as a standard rule and having snake pits is not it though.

I agree, it's not enough, but it's a start. I don't know what the next step is. Freshwater sharks? Killer bees? Vietcong?

Haha, not enough. I think lightning bolt machines and lava pits with lava monsters would help for sure.

Bram wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:55 am "Privately, the president had often talked about fortifying a border wall with a water-filled trench, stocked with snakes or alligators, prompting aides to seek a cost estimate. He wanted the wall electrified, with spikes on top that could pierce human flesh. After publicly suggesting that soldiers shoot migrants if they threw rocks, the president backed off when his staff told him that was illegal. But later in a meeting, aides recalled, he suggested that they shoot migrants in the legs to slow them down. That’s not allowed either, they told him."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/01/us/p ... -wars.html

This guy....

There's a bigger point.

1. Staffer(s) close to the president are leaking this with the intent to make him look foolish.
2. This is the leakingest White House I can ever recall.

These seem to have been constants throughout the entire Trump presidency.

Turdacious wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:49 am

Bram wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:55 am "Privately, the president had often talked about fortifying a border wall with a water-filled trench, stocked with snakes or alligators, prompting aides to seek a cost estimate. He wanted the wall electrified, with spikes on top that could pierce human flesh. After publicly suggesting that soldiers shoot migrants if they threw rocks, the president backed off when his staff told him that was illegal. But later in a meeting, aides recalled, he suggested that they shoot migrants in the legs to slow them down. That’s not allowed either, they told him."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/01/us/p ... -wars.html

This guy....

There's a bigger point.

1. Staffer(s) close to the president are leaking this with the intent to make him look foolish.
2. This is the leakingest White House I can ever recall.

These seem to have been constants throughout the entire Trump presidency.

Lack of leadership.

Bram wrote: ↑Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:55 am "Privately, the president had often talked about fortifying a border wall with a water-filled trench, stocked with snakes or alligators, prompting aides to seek a cost estimate. He wanted the wall electrified, with spikes on top that could pierce human flesh. After publicly suggesting that soldiers shoot migrants if they threw rocks, the president backed off when his staff told him that was illegal. But later in a meeting, aides recalled, he suggested that they shoot migrants in the legs to slow them down. That’s not allowed either, they told him."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/01/us/p ... -wars.html

This guy....

Privately said to whom? When?

Trump may have said. Trump may have been kidding. The "source" may be a lying sack of shit.

Turdacious wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:49 am
There's a bigger point.

1. Staffer(s) close to the president are leaking this with the intent to make him look foolish.
2. This is the leakingest White House I can ever recall.

These seem to have been constants throughout the entire Trump presidency.

"If you want a friend in Washington, buy a dog" - Nancy Kassebaum, 1987.

A cost analysis:

https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2019/1 ... is/160350/

Yes this is a parody, but still

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 44321.html

“We have, I guess you could say, world-class mountain climbers. We got climbers,” Mr Trump said next to a recently completed part of the border in Otay Mesa, California last month.

“We had 20 mountain climbers. That’s all they do – they love to climb mountains. They can have it. Me, I don’t want to climb mountains. But they are very good, and some of them were champions. And we gave them different prototypes of walls, and this was the one that was hardest to climb.”

Rick Weber, one of the founders of Muir Valley, a popular rock climbing park and nature reserve in the Red River Gorge area of Kentucky, has arranged a competition for accomplished climbers to ascend a replica of Mr Trump’s wall.

He wrote: “No one in our climbing community knows any of these 20 mountaineers. I doubt if they exist. More importantly, to declare something to be impossible to climb to a bonafide rock climber is to issue a challenge.