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Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:10 pm
by T200
ITT I will put relevant material from new Wrestling Observer issues since there seems to be some interest around here.

This stuff is from the 11/21/11 issue.
Since Lorenzo and Frank Fertitta purchased UFC from Bob Meyrowitz, and Dana White was put in charge, there have been a number of pivotal shows historically.

The first was September 28, 2001, UFC 33, Victory in Vegas, the company’s first time back cleared on PPV. They spent millions in branding advertising and set up Tito Ortiz vs. Vitor Belfort for the light heavyweight title as the main event. But everything went wrong. Belfort was injured and replaced by Vladimir Matyushenko. 9/11 had just taken place 17 days earlier and people were not yet in the mood to spend money. The show didn’t do nearly what was expected on PPV, although the number was not a disaster. But the show was. Every match went to a decision. Every match was boring. And the three hour window of the show ended somewhere in the fourth round of a five round main event. Much of the country was cut off at that point and refunds were asked for en masse. After such a bad debut, PPV business dropped significantly and it took a long time to regain the audience.

The company struggled, a fight with Ken Shamrock vs. Tito Ortiz did well with strong promotion on Fox Sports Net. That show on November 22, 2002, UFC 40, was the company’s first true PPV success, and that was a good show. However, all the new viewers who came to see Shamrock, since he lost a one-sided bout, didn’t stick around and PPV numbers fell to pre-Shamrock levels.

Next was the Ultimate Fighter reality show on Spike. There is a very good chance if that show was not a success, UFC would have lost TV and have been folded or sold. While most histories trace the success to the Forrest Griffin vs. Stephan Bonnar fight, it was really an episode several weeks earlier, where Josh Koscheck sprayed a garden hose on a sleeping Chris Leben, and then denied it when confronted by White. The scene turned Leben, a heel up to that point, babyface. Koscheck has been a heel ever since. More than six years later, both are prominent UFC headliners and the fan base has largely never forgotten the incident. The Koscheck vs. Leben grudge match drew a 2.0 rating for a show that aired at 11 p.m. on a Monday night. But the match was awful. Koscheck took Leben down and held him down for three rounds to win a decision. UFC was all the buzz the week before, and people said that all the new audience, mostly WWF wrestling fans, were hooked by the grudge, but the match was terrible and they blew it. And ratings for the show did drop. Shortly thereafter was the Ultimate Fighter final on April 9, 2005, the company’s first live fight card on Spike TV.

Few remember that Forrest Griffin vs. Stephan Bonnar was not the main event. Ken Shamrock vs. Rich Franklin was. But that was a short match. Griffin vs. Bonnar stole the show, in what was among the best UFC fights in history. In fact, to this day, it usually wins any poll of the best fighter ever. In front of the company’s biggest audience to date, they had their best match and the show was a home run. UFC business grew by leaps and bounds over the next 18 months.

July 8, 2006, was the next biggie, the rematch of the 2002 Ken Shamrock vs. Ortiz grudge match. The first time it was an underground grudge match. This time, after the highest rated season up to that point of Ultimate Fighter, the match drew 775,000 PPV buys, blowing away all previous numbers. The show was a disaster. The match went 1:00 with a stoppage that most people thought was premature. Then Tim Sylvia and Andrei Arlovski, who went on last in a heavyweight title match, stunk the joint out for five rounds. There was the thought that all these new people were sampling and they would never watch again. In fact, nothing of the sort happened. A third match with Shamrock vs. Ortiz, one that MMA hardcores screamed at the top of their lungs shouldn’t happen and that nobody wanted to see, drew TV ratings that shocked everyone, and after winning Ortiz’s PPV with Chuck Liddell topped 1 million buys for the first time, and the company was on its way.

The next big step was the debut on the FOX network on 11/12, and the decision was made to go with just one fight, doing a long introductory buildup and treating the fight like an old-time boxing heavyweight title fight. Dana White talked about how in the days of Wide World of Sports, they would build up one fight, Cain Velasquez defending the heavyweight title against Junior Dos Santos, make it huge and that was it. But UFC, while business always ebbs and flows based on the main event, was about the show itself, not one match. The decision was heavily criticized beforehand, particularly with Clay Guida vs. Ben Henderson, a potential classic being the match cut from the show.
It appeared to have backfired. After 37 minutes of build, with videos and hype that made UFC look more major league than ever before, and made the two stars showdown into something huge, in the blink of an eye, it was over. Dos Santos drilled Velasquez with a right behind the ear and Velasquez went down, losing hie equilibrium. He got no guard game going and was taking shots on the ground when ref John McCarthy stopped it in 1:04, and there was a new heavyweight champion.

There’s nothing wrong with first round knockouts, but it looked so easy. Velasquez, who had never even been in a disadvantage position in his career for more than a few seconds, marketed as a hero to Mexican-Americans, was destroyed. The American version of the show overall was disappointment because of the fight. The version shown in the rest of the world, instead aired Guida vs. Henderson, was a home run of a show because those two had an all-time classic and potential match of the year.

What happened in the title fight was simply that Velasquez got nailed with a hard punch from a heavyweight with knockout power. Velasquez’s weakness was always that he could be hit, but that he recovered instantaneously. This time, whether it’s the beginning of the road downward like happened with Chuck Liddell and Wanderlei Silva, who also could be hit but were successful because of their recovery power after being hit, or just a fluke, only time will tell. The fight was very similar to the Georges St. Pierre title loss to Matt Serra, and that hardly spelled the end of St. Pierre’s career.

Both guys were hurt coming into the fight. Dos Santos suffered a torn meniscus in his right knee 11 days earlier. He spent two days on crutches and the rest of his training was spent shadow boxing in a pool. Exactly what the situation was with Velasquez isn’t quite clear. Both before and after the match, he said the same thing, that he was banged up a little, but you always are after a training camp and he was better off than some fights and worse than others.

I saw him twice in the two weeks before the fight. He was moving fine and not missing training. Nine days before the fight I saw him running at a healthy clip for a big guy and for a long time at that clip on the treadmill. He was clearly in shape, moving like that without tiring, as one would expect given his rep.

Then at weigh-ins he weighed 249 pounds, and looked soft. In his previous fights, he had ranged from 235 to 244. When he fought Brock Lesnar last year, he wanted to add weight to combat Lesnar’s size, was lifting heavy, and had more muscle mass than now, and got up to 244. For Dos Santos, one would have expected him to shed weight, looking for speed and stamina. In comparison, he looked soft in the upper body, and he was coming off surgery for a torn rotator cuff. And he did get a cortisone shot in his knee before the fight. Still, taking a shot that hard was going to put most people down, good knee or bad knee, whether their shoulder was 100% or not.

While Dos Santos is more charismatic than Velasquez, well, almost everyone is, Velasquez was more valuable for his ability to mobilize the Mexican-American audience. For all the criticism of UFC’s marketing of Velasquez last year, it only showed how clueless those doing the criticism was. They took a great fighter with no charisma, and made him an ethnic star. Both at weigh-ins and at the life show, it was clear there was a very different Mexican audience, wearing Rey Mysterio and Santo masks, dressed in colors and cheering him on at a superstar level. There are general rules about what type of person can be a superstar and he does not fit into that category. But the most important rule of being a superstar is the simplest–“What works works.” And it worked. You’d have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to see it, even though by all usual rules, it shouldn’t have happened.

But he’s going to have to regain what he had, and marketing can’t do it. We’ve already seen one loss in MMA kills nobody, as fans get that anyone can win on a given day and it’s a game of inches, and sometimes less than inches. GSP loss the same way and ended up bigger than ever. If Velasquez wins a few in a row, he’ll be bigger than ever. If not, then he’ll never be back where he was.

Dana White was a nervous man on Sunday morning. While he publicly claimed the show was a big success at the press conference, he knew full well that things did not go well to maximize ratings with one minute of fighting in a 60 minute show.

By starting the fight at 9:40 p.m., it was clear what the FOX strategy was. If the fight went passed three rounds, it would go past 10 p.m., when the local newscast was scheduled to start. At that point, a ton of new viewers would be watching the final rounds of what on paper expected to be an exciting fight. A five round fight would have ended at 10:10 and you’d still have to read the decision, do the interviews and wrap up, taking you until close to 10:20.

There are a lot of ways to read the rating. My expectation going in was a 3.5 or better because of the novelty of being the first show. It ended up as a 3.1, but that doesn’t really tell the story for a number of reasons. Had the fight gone any length of time, you can’t really figure exactly what it would have done, because we don’t have minute by minutes and we don’t know how much the fight would have gained over time.

The quarter-hour from 9:30 to 9:45 did 7.08 million viewers on FOX and about 900,000 on Fox Deportes in Spanish. That’s the start point. It’s reasonable to assume given time to go even into the second round, that this hyped main event would have gained a million viewers during the fight (and that is a conservative estimate). And keep in mind that 8 million is a quarter hour, which includes several minutes of people clicking off when the fight ended, and several minutes of talking and intros that don’t do as well as the fight itself. If the quarter averaged 8 million, it’s very possible that fight could have started at closer to 9 million and grown past 10 million. None of this happened, but those are numbers that it likely would have done and are higher than was expected. Between the FOX side and the UFC side, even though the end number was a 3.1 on FOX and 3.88 on Fox Deportes (average rating for a two hour live show, the rating is based on the Fox Deportes Spanish language universe so that’s actually 497,000 viewers on average, although the second hour was much higher than the first and the main event would have spiked even more on Deportes than FOX given who was in it) they were extremely happy. Dana White showed up at the office after getting the breakdown of all the numbers three days later, told everyone they had done their job, it was a great day, and to take the rest of the day off.

People were talking that this was a worst case scenario, was still a success, and that they would only build from there. But that’s not a lock. There is often more interest in first time. You have to remember no farther back than the XFL to see a 9.5 starting point, triple what this was, and down in the toilet within a few weeks and being one of TV’s all-time bombs. I figured all the promotional push and novelty would mean something, but it’s the third and fourth show where we’ll really see what this means. The fact is, UFC hit 3.1s for live shows in 2006 and 2007 on Spike, and since then, never came close again.

The show also had competition from itself on Spike. Spike pushed a three-hour block of Velasquez and Dos Santos fights doing 719,000 viewers head-to-head, as well as 923,000 for the lead-in hour and 787,000 for the follow-up hour.

The show averaged 5.7 million viewers for the one-hour broadcast. It was the largest audience ever to watch an MMA television show in the United States, breaking the record of 5.3 million set on September 30, 2009, for an episode of The Ultimate Fighter reality show on Spike featuring a taped match with Kimbo Slice vs. Roy Nelson. The truth is 5.3 million viewers on Spike (a 3.7 rating) is far more impressive than 5.7 million on FOX, although when you throw in the competition on Spike and that it was simulcast in Spanish and 6.2 million were watching for the hour with another 719,000 watching a different show with the same fighters. But the last quarter fell off a cliff, and for the first 45 minutes, they averaged 7 million viewers and a 3.7 rating between the English and Spanish language version.

“I’m pumped,” said UFC president Dana White when he got the number on Sunday. “I wouldn’t change a thing. We had to introduce the sport to a bunch of people who had never been it before.”
“It would have been great to have had a three-round war, but we can’t control how the fight is going to go.”

Aside from the Slice fight on Ultimate Fighter, the UFC had twice done 3.1 ratings on Spike, but with fewer viewers due to the difference between the reach of a network station and a cable station. The October 10, 2006, live fight special with the third Ken Shamrock vs. Tito Ortiz grudge match did that rating, which amounted to 4.3 million viewers at the time. The September 8, 2007, fight on Spike, a unification of the UFC light heavyweight title and Pride light heavyweight title, with Quinton Jackson beating Dan Henderson, drew that same rating which was 4.7 million viewers.
It was the UFC’s debut on network television. The previous high on a network basis was the May 31, 2008, Elite XC show on CBS featuring Slice vs. James Thompson, which did a 3.0 rating and 4.85 million viewers.

While Fox executives would not predict a rating ahead of time, reports were they were selling ads based on predictions of 4.5 million viewers, so even with the short fight, they easily beat their goal. White said that he was predicting the largest audience for the sport in history, and admitted before ratings came in of being a little worried after the show based on the short fight.

All of the aforementioned shows had the advantage of being longer shows with more fight time, allowing more time to build the audience. On fight shows, the time fighting invariably spikes much higher than the time building the fight before and analyzing the fight after, so the rating would have been significantly higher with a longer main event. If you throw the Spanish feed in, the national rating for the hour would be a 3.5. The peak quarter including both feeds was a 4.4. If you estimate a two round fight, with no overrun boost, between the two feeds you’d have had a 4.1 rating, a 5.7 in Males 18-34 and 4.9 in Males 35-49. Those are blow away numbers. As noted, they didn’t do those numbers, but that is pretty much the numbers they would have done if you figure they would have kept the likely first minute fighter number and not have the drop (the final quarter did 3.6 million viewers on FOX, a drop of 3.4 million once the fight ended and one would suspect the Deportes drop was similar and also took down the average for the show).

The show was an even bigger success in the target demographics, doing a 4.3 in Males 18-34 and 4.0 in Males 18-49 (not including the Deportes numbers and these are artificially lower due to people tuning out after the fight ended and there was still 15 minutes left) . Both numbers are 34% and 33% higher than the Slice vs. Thompson debut on CBS, which, because of it being on CBS, drew an older audience. It beat the Oregon State vs. Stanford game in Males 18-34 and finished second behind that game of any show on television on Saturday. In fact, the 4.3 in Males 18-34 beat every college football game this season except the LSU vs. Alabama game. It beat 65% of the playoff and World Series baseball games this season on FOX in that demo. It was the third highest rated television show of the year on Fox Deportes.

Perhaps most impressive was the show drew 1.7 million women over the age of 18 on FOX alone.

It was the most watched fight broadcast on U.S. television since the 2003 HBO broadcast of the Lennox Lewis vs. Vitali Klitschko boxing heavyweight and largest on broadcast television since 1998, which did 7.2 million viewers. Of course 7.2 million viewers on HBO is umpteen times more impressive than the same number of FOX given the difference is homes getting the stations. But there hasn’t been a boxing show on network television to pull these numbers since 1998.

But the show was generally not well received in the sense it was a ton of talking and a minute of fighting. Again, historically bad shows can hurt and have hurt. I don’t know that they made a ton of new fans, but I also don’t think they hurt themselves going forward. This week’s PPV will be interesting to see if it beats 250,000, which is where I’m guessing it would fall if there was no help or harm done by the broadcast. If it shows an increase from that level, that’s a very good sign. If not, then this show didn’t likely help much if at all. I didn’t get the impression, even as major league as they felt, that this show would leave a viewer feeling they now can’t miss this and would pay to see a PPV featuring different fighters. Now, will this help the Overeem vs. Lesnar numbers, since that was hyped and that story was told about the winner getting the winner of this fight, you would hope it would help that significantly.

That doesn’t mean they’ll be able to hit these numbers for a second show. Elite XC had a good first show and bombed on the second. And there also is the question of how to balance what you give away free while not cannibalizing your PPV business. While it’s possible things can change, but not for at least the seven year duration of this contract, they simply can’t make close to the money doing a show like this as they can on PPV. If the best fights are free, you’ll kill PPV for secondary shows. If television is used to do top contender fights to expose people before the big audience before they get their title shot, then that works better for PPV, but can those fights do network prime time ratings? There are a ton of questions left unanswered here.

It’s been reported in several places that the next FOX show is 1/28. Over the weekend, it was hinted to us that date would be the first FX show, not the next FOX show, but nothing is official. Different people have contradictory stories but what we could piece together is that right now there is a plan for a January show that would be on either 1/21 or 1/28.

Here’s a chart of the biggest shows historically and how this show compared. For this show I’m combing the English and Spanish feeds because that is the number of Americans watching the show. For designations, 10/10/06 was the show headlined by Ken Shamrock vs. Tito Ortiz, 9/8/07 was the show headlined by Dan Henderson vs. Rampage Jackson in a UFC vs. Pride light heavyweight title unification match, 5/31/08 was Kimbo Slice vs. James Thompson and Gina Carano vs. Kaitlyn Young on CBS and 9/30/09 was Slice vs. Roy Nelson on The Ultimate Fighter on Spike. These are the four most successful MMA television shows before this one. RTG is household rating, viewers is the average of the entire show in millions, peak is the peak quarter in million and Males 18-34 is the rating in that demo.

SHOW RTG VIEWERS PEAK M18-34

10/10/06 3.1 4.2 5.7 6.0
9/8/07 3.1 4.7 5.9 5.7
5/31/08 3.0 4.9 6.5 3.2
9/30/09 3.7 5.3 6.1 6.9
11/12/11 3.5 6.3 8.0 4.7

A few notes about these comparisons. A show on a network should easily beat a show on Spike, so the Spike numbers for the three big ones are all more impressive, even though this was seen by more people even with virtually no fighting. The CBS show also had a disadvantage and would have done about 10% higher numbers, except a number of affiliates representing 10% of the CBS universe did not show the first Elite XC show because of the negative stigma of MMA on network TV and not wanting it on their local stations. There was no such issue with FOX in 2011. However, they were all longer shows with multiple matches and more time to build and increase an audience, plus they were all fight shows instead of essentially a talk show. But none had the amount of promotion in front of as many eyeballs as this show. By all rights, this should have been the highest rated show ever. But the reality is if the fight had gone two rounds, it easily would have been, so the reason it wasn’t isn’t a conceptual failure as much as the part nobody can control, the fight itself, went too short.

Another note is that while UFC can’t come close to matching the Male 18-34 audience from the specials years earlier, the audience is more broad-based. Shamrock vs. Ortiz did a 6.0 in Males 18-34 and a 3.0 in Males 35-49, while this show did a 4.7 between the two feeds in Males 18-34 but did a 4.1 in Males 35-49.

The strongest markets for the show were Las Vegas, Dallas, Phoenix, San Antonio, Tulsa, San Diego, Greensboro, New Orleans and Los Angeles. What also makes that impressive is the show aired in Las Vegas, San Diego and Los Angeles from 6 to 7 p.m., out of prime time.

When CBS and Spike broadcasted major MMA events, they would tape delay them for the West Coast so they would air in prime time when a larger audience would be watching. So that was a point that hurt this show in a comparison, particularly since the strongest major market, Los Angeles, was getting the show at 6 p.m.
UFC and FOX executives on 11/9 laid out some of the 2012 television plans, including an almost but not quite rebranding of Fuel TV as the UFC network.

George Greenberg, who heads Fuel, stated that they are planning on airing about 2,000 hours of UFC programming, or an average of five-and-a-half hours a day, over the next year. Most of that would be airing shows similar to the UFC Unleashed show that airs on Spike, compilations of old fights from both the UFC and the Pride library. But it would also include at least 100 hours of live programming, between events, event coverage, pre and post-game shows, weigh-ins and UFC talk shows.

Dana White noted that the new deal would result in every UFC fight airing on television live or same day tape delay in some form. Starting with the 1/14 show from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, for PPV shows, the early fights on the card, which formerly aired on Facebook, will now air on Fuel. The big advantage on that is Facebook fights used to be filled with messages on how to stream the PPVs illegally, so they were kind of cutting their own throats by putting it on a venue with messages that you could see. On television, that isn’t happening. There will also be a one hour window on FX on PPV nights from 9-10 p.m., airing the final two prelim fights leading into the PPV.

In all, the plans are for a minimum of 30 live events of the UFC brand, not including other events if Showtime picks up the Strikeforce deal. The breakdown will be 14 PPV events, four live fight specials on Saturday nights on FOX, six live fight specials on Friday nights on FX, and a minimum of six, and possibly more, live fight specials on Fuel. That doesn’t include another 24 or so live fights on FX on Friday nights as the Ultimate Fighter reality show goes to a live fight format.

David Hill, FOX Sports Media Group Chairman, laid out plans that the FOX specials would be 90 minute shows, airing from 8:30 to 10 p.m. on Saturday nights, airing either two or three fights. The FX live cards on Fridays would be two hour shows, while the Fuel shows will be three hours in length, besides airing the prelims.

Fuel will also air post-game shows after the Fox events, and the Fox Sports Radio network will continue to carry the Fox shows.

White noted that Fuel will be a must-have for UFC fans. Greenberg said that Fuel will change its aim, as it was formerly a network that aimed for the 12-34 age group, airing sports like snowboarding and surfing, and is moving its aim to 18-49, with UFC as its staple programming. It will continue to air the other types of sports programming.

Regarding the plans Dana White talked about several weeks back of running two shows on the same night, on 2/25 in specific, that isn’t happening. Lorenzo Fertitta noted where this came up was that they had scheduled a PPV date on 2/25 for the show from Saitama, Japan, and then FOX came to them and offered that same date, so they went to their production people and looked at whether they could handle two shows on the same night, which would air one after the other. They felt they could do it, but something happened, likely FOX changing their mind on the date. In that situation, they’d have done a 90 minute FOX show to build the PPV that would start at 10 p.m., but right now there are no dates to do such a thing on the schedule.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:14 pm
by T200
Smokin' Joe
Joe Frazier, one of the great heavyweight boxers of all-time, passed away on 11/7 at the age of 67 from liver cancer. Frazier had only found out he had the liver cancer less than two months ago and it only came out a few days before his death when it was reported he had entered into hospice care, which meant his death was considered inevitable. He had also been suffering from diabetes.

The rivalry between Frazier and Muhammad Ali in the early 70s was probably the single most famous individual sports rivalry of the last 50 years, and perhaps of all-time. Books and movies have been done on the subject of the two men linked together by their era that whose three battles became sporting events that legitimately caused the world to stop. It was a combination of timing and the political atmosphere, along with the charisma of Ali, the popularity of boxing world heavyweight title, the power of the New York media at the time, and the fact for many years these were the two best men in their sport.

Frazier grew up on a farm in Laurel Bay, SC, and his parents were among the first people in their community to own a television. All their friends and family members would come over to watch boxing on television, and with his stocky, powerful frame, was first told he would be the next Joe Louis. He put up a burlap sack, filled it with corncobs, moss and a brick, tied it to a rope and it became his heavy bag that he started training with, wrapping his hands with either one of his father’s ties or his mothers’ panty hoes. In school, he had a lot of friends because nobody in town would mess with him. But due to indignities suffered while working on another farm, he saved his money, got out of town, and at the age of 15, moved in with his brother in New York.

He became an amateur boxer, forging a rivalry with Buster Mathis, who beat him twice, his only amateur losses, the second being in the 1964 Olympic trials. Frazier lost a point for low blows, which he always claimed were clean body shots but Mathis wore his trunks so high the referee warned him and eventually deducted him two points for low blows in a three-round fight. Frazier was sent to Tokyo as the alternate in the heavyweight division, and to serve as Mathis’ main sparring partner. When Mathis suffered a broken hand punching Frazier in an exhibition for local servicemen in Japan, Frazier was suddenly thrust into competing. He won the gold medal, but not without an issue as he broke his thumb in the semifinals, but had to keep it quiet. But in fighting in the finals without the ability to do much with one arm, he struggled against German Hans Huber, winning a split decision on a 3-2 score.

When he got back from the Olympics, he was fired from his job because he couldn’t work with a broken hand. But investors got together to fund him to start training for a boxing career. He went pro in 1965 and off his Olympic gold medal, had an immediate name. Ali, who had won the heavyweight title from Sonny Liston in 1964, under the name Cassius Clay, became the most controversial name in sports. He got under the influence of the Black Muslims, changed his name to Muhammad Ali, and the way society was at the time, became the most hated athlete among white America which saw the Muslims as militant blacks. He was drafted to serve in the Viet Nam war and then refused to serve, claiming to be a conscientious objector. To white America, a man who made his living with his fists beating people up and then refusing to serve his country made him a draft dodger, and in 1967, he was stripped of his title. While Ali’s mouth and personality in the 70s made people view him as the greatest heavyweight of all-time, the reality is the Ali of 1964-67 was at his physical peak and when he came back after a three-year layoff, he was never as quick or as sharp.

Then came the issue, with Ali stripped and being banned from the sport, to crown a new world champion. This was a tough deal because whoever the champion was would in the eye of the public be under the shadow of Ali, a lightning quick heavyweight who, while reviled both for his political stand and early on for doing his pro wrestling promos learned from the likes of Fred Blassie and Gorgeous George (which he later became lauded for), had never been beaten for the title.

Frazier and Ali were likely to be fighting in 1967 or 1968 for the title as Frazier was generally considered the second best heavyweight in the game when Ali was sent into exile. Part of the storyline behind their 1971 match was that boxing fans had waited nearly four years to see who the true top heavyweight was.

The two had met in 1967, and Ali, in building up what was to be an inevitable fight, said Frazier, with his style, never stood a chance in the ring with him.

The heavyweight title splintered with Ali banished. The World Boxing Association, the leading sanctioning body, ordered a tournament for the title. However, those close to Frazier working with the New York State Athletic Commission, said that since Frazier was the top contender they would match him with rival Mathis to declare their version of the world heavyweight champion, and talked Frazier out of entering the tournament. On March 4, 1968, in Madison Square Garden, Frazier stopped Mathis in the 11th round to win what was generally called The New York State Athletic Commission world title. The WBA title, which was recognized in most of the world as the championship, was decided on April 27, 1968, when Jimmy Ellis won a split decision over Jerry Quarry. After Frazier knocked out Quarry in MSG on June 23, 1969, something Ellis couldn’t do, the unification match was set for February 16, 1970, which Frazier won via fifth round knockout, to become the almost undisputed world champion.

What is lost in history is that Frazier went all the way to President Richard Nixon to ask that Ali be reinstated and Frazier even lent Ali money when Ali was broke and unable to work.

In 1970, Ali’s case went before the Supreme Court, which ruled in his favor, and thus he was allowed to box again. Ring Magazine had never stripped Ali of his title, as Ali had not retired and not been beaten, even though it had been more than three years since he was exiled from the sport. On October 26, 1970, Ali knocked out Quarry in three rounds, quicker than Frazier did. The “Fight of the Century” was set up for March 8, 1971 in Madison Square Garden (one month to the day of Pedro Morales beating Ivan Koloff in the same building for the WWWF title).

It’s almost impossible to describe the enormity of the fight. The closest comparison would be a Super Bowl game, but in reality, this fighter was far bigger. It was probably the single biggest sporting event in the United States of that period. Both were undefeated. One was the defending champion, the other was the linear champion who had never lost his title, and probably the most famous athlete by this point in the country. Ali was hated by most whites, reviled for being a draft dodger who wouldn’t serve his country, a militant black who was making $2.5 million to box, an unheard of sum in those days. But Ali was able to turn the black community on Frazier, calling him, among other things, an Uncle Tom, probably as low a statement as you could make, basically a black man who served the white man.

For the week prior to the fight, it was the biggest thing not just in sports, but in the world. The night of the fight, time stood still. The fight was only available on closed-circuit television. Most of the country was glued to radios, listening to news stations that would, at the end of each round, break into the news with the AP written coverage of what happened. The fight was competitive, with Ali winning the early rounds with his superior speed, but a 15th round knockdown by Frazier, who was in better condition and his harder punches started taking their toll on Ali, started picking up as the fight wore on. Many blamed this on Ali not being fully back from his three-year layoff, which infuriated Frazier who claimed Ali fading was because of the beating he had given him.’

But Frazier had taken so many blows to the face that his face was distorted and filled with lumps and was so unsightly that when it was put on the cover of Sports Illustrated in one of the most famous covers of all-time. People, most of whom never saw the fight, questioned how a guy beat up so bad could have been the winner. Ali had a broken jaw, but his face wasn’t that messed up and he hadn’t taken nearly the punishment. So Ali immediately claimed to be the uncrowned champion and that he was robbed of the decision. Even though he lost, the public turned toward Ali, as in losing, people started to feel sympathy for the idea that he had three of his prime years robbed, may have lost due to ring rust that wasn’t his fault, and was unjustly stripped of his title.
The fight’s mystique was because unlike now, where a week later, the fight would be on HBO, or even then, when ABC’s Wide World of Sports would replay it, it was so big the decision was made to release it a few months later as a movie. Thus, unless you saw the closed circuit, which the hardcores did but the general public didn’t, you only read about or saw photos of the fight until the movie was released.

Ali was able to convince the public he won, and was also through his gift of gab, slowly becoming more popular. But the reality was it showed the value of personality and charisma, because in most of the world, they did get the fight on free television, and it was viewed by a very significant percentage of the world’s population outside the U.S. Even though he lost, because he was the focal point of building it up, clearly the star coming in and going out, this fight really made Ali into the most famous and eventually most popular athlete of his time.

Frazier had won the title, but lost popularity because he couldn’t match Ali verbally. But before a rematch could take place, Frazier defended against George Foreman on January 22, 1973, in Jamaica. While a big powerhouse with the hardest punch in the division, the only thing most thought was that Frazier was the toughest guy in the sport and couldn’t be hurt. But stylistically, the bigger Foreman was a nightmare for Frazier, and knocked him down six times in winning via second round TKO. Perhaps the most famous line in the history of sports commentary came from that fight, a line repeated over-and-over for the past 39 years to the point almost everyone has heard it, and few know its originations--Howard Cosell screaming, “Down Goes Frazier! Down Goes Frazier!”

Ali beat Frazier in a 12-round decision on January 28, 1974, in Madison Square Garden while Foreman was champion. This was the least talked about of the three fights and was something of a disappointment, in a match where the winner was likely to get a title shot at Foreman.

After Ali beat Foreman for the title in the “Rumble in the Jungle,” their third and most brutal fight took place on October 1, 1975, in Quezon City just outside of Manila, “the Thrilla in Manila.”

Ali promoted the fight calling Frazier a Gorilla, and there was a televised brawl in the days before the fight when the two were sitting together being interviewed by Cosell and Frazier lost his cool and went after Ali. During the period from 1971 to 1975, the general belief was no matter what Ali said, in his mind he had no animosity for Frazier and was just promoting fights. Frazier, on the other hand, took far too much seriously, because the black community turned on him, and by the time of their third fight, since Ali had basically turned almost everyone with his underdog win over Foreman, the white community had turned on him as well. He could never come to grips that in his mind, he was not the villain the public made him out to be. Worse, he had to live through the worst of what a real-life villain of the 70s had to, between the threats, the taunts and fights that his children would get into growing up, all because he was portrayed as the white man’s emissary that was trying to beat down the black icon.

He would complain to people that he wasn’t ugly–as Ali would call him, and would tell people that if you look at photos of the two together that he was really the better looking of the two. Cosell did interview after interview after the incident, noting that in the skirmish, where one of the two could have legitimately been hurt and resulted in the third fight being postponed, that Ali was just playing it up for the cameras, but that he could look in Frazier’s eyes from the moment they sat down, and even more once Frazier went after him, that Frazier was deadly serious.

The fight was one of the great heavyweight wars of all-time. Between the pace and the heat, both men were drained as the fight wore on. Ali, feeling he was next to death due to exhaustion in the later rounds, could take no more and told his corner to take off his gloves at the end of the 14th round, signifying he was done. But just before he did so, Frazier’s corner, feeling he couldn’t see or continue due to complete exhaustion, stopped the fight. Neither fighter was ever the same after that battle.

Frazier was knocked out in a rematch with Foreman in 1976, and retired. He was only 32 when he retired. Because of his being a short heavyweight whose style was always moving forward style and willingness to take punches to deliver his blows in return, it served him well except against a monster puncher like Foreman. But in 11 years as pro, he had taken more than double that number of years of punishment. He did come back once, going to a draw against an untalented huge bodybuilder ex-con who got some publicity because of his look (think a smaller time version of Kimbo Slice) turned boxer called Jumbo Cummings in 1981, finishing with a 32-4-1 record.

In the 80s, Frazier had a number of appearances in major pro wrestling matches and angles during the 80s. He started in Puerto Rico where he did some guest refereeing, including in a Carlos Colon vs. Bruiser Brody match. I can recall Brody being extremely wary of a double-cross from his enemies here and he commented to friends that this was the most scared he ever was going into a match. He noted that even though Frazier was retired, he was only in his early 40s, and knew how to throw a knockout punch and a bare knuckle punch from him could be disastrous. But as it turned out, Frazier was only there to sell tickets and do the boxer as referee gimmick.

“I know even then Frank didn’t trust Colon,” said Larry Matysik, who was Brody’s closest friend in wrestling. “He thought it could be a set-up. He told me a guy like Frazier could make you a vegetable (with a bare knuckle sucker punch) and he would be giving Frazier his jaw. But after, he told me everything was fine. It was a nice worked punch. He found Frazier to be a good guy.”

Frazier’s work in pro wrestling dates back to refereeing a December 25, 1979, match in Bayamon between Carlos Colon and Hercules Ayala. He did at least two pro wrestling matches, billed as boxer vs. wrestler, at the age of 40. On April 3, 1984, he lost to Victor Jovica in Trinidad National Stadium, and the same weekend headlined a stadium show in Barbados where he was pinned by Carlos Colon. Ric Flair defended the NWA title on those shows.

It was through the Puerto Rico office, that Dusty Rhodes and Jim Crockett made contact with Frazier, bringing him in as the guest referee for the Ric Flair vs. Dusty Rhodes NWA title match at Starrcade ‘84 at the Greensboro Coliseum on Thanksgiving night that year. The finish saw Frazier stop the match because Rhodes was bleeding, with the idea that such a match would be stopped in boxing, but pro wrestlers are used to battling on while covered in blood. The idea was of course to keep the Flair vs. Rhodes program going, but also leading to a Rhodes vs. Frazier match, which Rhodes would win. But the match ended up not happening, probably for that reason. Both did cut promos to start the feud but then it was never followed up on.

In 1986, Frazier was hired by WWF to legitimately train Mr. T for a worked boxing match at that year’s WrestleMania with Roddy Piper. Frazier complained that Mr. T wouldn’t train at all. Mr. T’s version, quietly that he told people in wrestling before the Piper match, was that, because of his reputation as the toughest guy in the world, that he has no boxing experience. He felt if he sparred with real boxers, if one of them knocked him down and word got out, or ran their mouth that he couldn’t box, it would hurt his marketability. As silly as that sounds, at the time, he was correct. Frazier did show up in T’s corner for the boxing match. T wasn’t in any kind of shape, and blew up quickly because he hadn’t trained for boxing.

The rivalry stayed legendary as Frazier became embittered that Ali became the most famous and most popular athlete of the modern era, while he had been his verbal foil. Frazier would note he worked at getting Ali back in boxing. Ali would say that Frazier became a legend from his fights with him. And for all the taunts, and being the villain to his people, and later to almost all people, a role he never wanted and never accepted, it was the Ali fights that made Frazier. Larry Holmes, Floyd Patterson, Ezzard Charles and even Sonny Liston, were all world champions but never had an Ali as their opponent.

Frazier felt Ali would never gave him credit for helping make Ali as big as he was since it was the rivalry and the Foreman win that Ali’s boxing career was most remembered by. Decades later, the bitterness continued from the Frazier side, even after Ali became a sympathetic character because of suffering from Parkinson’s syndrome for the past nearly three decades. In 1996, Ali was chosen to light the Olympic torch. Frazier said he wished he could throw Ali into the fire. At another point he laughed and took pleasure at Ali’s condition, claiming he was the one who put him in that condition. But when that came off poorly, he many other times claimed he had no bitterness toward Ali. Ali on occasion would joke about Frazier, doing shtick, but as he was dying, claimed he considered him a friend and that if he ever was to go to war, the first person he’d choose to be by his side from Frazier.

Frazier trained his son Marvis to box, and with the Frazier name, he was protected and became a name heavyweight. But most in boxing saw through the facade that he could be a contender, despite an unbeaten record. But Frazier, his trainer and manager, was heavily criticized for allowing him to face Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson, both of whom brutally knocked Marvis Frazier out in the first round.

Later, when their two daughters had a boxing match, where Laili Ali, who was a trainer boxer, beat Jacqui Frazier, who really was not, it was by far the biggest pay-per-view in history headlined by a woman’s fight.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:20 pm
by T200
James “Kamala’ Harris, 61, had to get part of his leg amputated on 11/7 due to complications from diabetes and high blood pressure. He was working as a truck driver after his wrestling career ended.
In the Devon Nicholson case, Abdullah the Butcher has still yet to produce any results of blood testing even though he’s told both his own lawyers and Nicholson’s lawyers that he’s taken his blood tests. Nicholson is training for the Canadian Olympic trials in wrestling which take place 12/16 to 12/18 in Winnipeg. He won a silver medal on 11/13 in the Greater Toronto Open, including beating one wrestler who has a national ranking. He’s been training under national team coach Marty Calder.
I know somebody who sold this nigga some GHB once:
The Albert Lea Tribune in Minnesota had a long story on Perry Saturn’s attempts to rebound from drug addiction. Saturn claimed he screwed up his career due to drugs, but said he’s been clean for three years. He said he hurt himself doing a tope in his first match in years, on 10/13 in Fisherville, VA for AWE, against C.W. Anderson on that group’s PPV debut. He said when he did the move he didn’t realize there was no padding on the floor, saying he’s still hurting from it and had he known there were no pads, he never would have done it. He said he started using illegal substances while working in WWF and it got so bad that he doesn’t even remember years of his career. “I screwed up really bad on drugs the last few years of my time in WWF, and I continued to tailspin out of control.” He said the drug he was hooked on was the pain killer Nubain. He said that one time, before he was fired, but when he was off the road due to a torn ACL, there was a show in Atlanta, where he was living. As he was going to the show, he got in his car, and because he had done so much Nubain, he passed out in his car. When he finally woke up, the show was over. After WWF released him, he became addicted to crystal meth. He was shot twice, once in the shoulder and once in the neck. He used that as an excuse why his life fell apart, “but the truth is that I was a drug addict and that’s why everything fell apart. He credited turning his life around to his dog. “I was so worried what would happen to her if I died that I had to hang on until after she died.” The dog, now 11, is still alive. He said while homeless, he met a woman, who at the time was also a homeless drug addict and they used each other for inspiration to stay clean, and ended up getting married a year ago. It was in getting married that their photo appeared in the local newspaper. That was the confirmation that he was still alive, as most of his closest friends believed he was dead because he had lost contact with everyone.
The second annual Bruno Sammartino award (for someone born in Italy who was a great representative of the country internationally) went to Luca Paolini, a bicycle racer. Sammartino is up to walking a mile-and-a-half daily in his recovery from heart surgery, which he’s way ahead of schedule on. As noted before, Paul Guay, who wrote the movie “Liar, Liar,” and also served on the WWE creative team at one point, is working on the script for the proposed Bruno Sammartino feature film. There is to be more of a pro wrestling element added in the new script. The movie project is still uncertain as they have to raise $20 million to fund the project since Sammartino insists of doing it independently (the only way he can retain control of the script as he’s insistent on it being accurate).
The trial of Ohio-based independent wrestler Andre Davis, who worked as Andre Heart, the Gangsta of Love, started on 11/14. Davis was accused of having sex with 12 women after finding out he was HIV positive and didn’t let them know. In some cases he didn’t tell them and the subject never came up, and in other cases, when girls he was about to sleep with brought the subject up, he is accused of lying to them. The law states someone HIV positive is required to tell all prospect sexual partners. He’s accused of meeting women at bars, at work (through wrestling and also working at Macy’s) and on Facebook, and in at least one case there was a four-way encounter involving another man and two women. Davis’ attorney blamed the women, saying all of the women involved had multiple sex partners and all made no attempt to protect themselves. When that’s your line of defense, things don’t look good. There is no evidence any of the women have been infected with HIV. Davis was a similar case involving four other women in another county in Ohio.
Kris Shield, an Ohio-based pro wrestler was one of 32 people indicted this past week involved in a steroid ring in Ohio where drugs were imported from China and processed at a secret lab in Tennessee. Authorities seized $600,000 worth of steroids and about $300,000 in cash and vehicles as well as assault rifles and other firearms used for security at the lab. Authorities said the ring aimed at selling steroids to high school students.
Former WWE wrestler Rob Conway placed second on 11/5 in the Kentucky Bodybuilding Championships in his height class. In doing so, he qualifies for the NPC Nationals (formerly known as the Mr. America contest) held in Miami on 11/19.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:27 pm
by T200
Image
Adrienne Barbeau, 66, best known for her role on the famous TV show “Maude” in the 70s and for a best selling poster, spoke this weekend at the Warhol in Pittsburgh. One of our readers asked her about being Miss Wrestling for Roy Shire in the 60s and she perked right up and still remembered the phone number for tickets to get tickets to the Cow Palace shows. When asked if she liked wrestling, she said wrestling was okay but her mother loved it and sat in the front row at shows her entire life and pushed her into being part of the scene. They were screening “Escape from New York,” and she was asked if she was the one who recommended Ox Baker, and she said, “No, that had to be my mom telling John (John Carpenter, who she was married to), but he was a big wrestling fan, too.” Carpenter was the guy who got Roddy Piper started as an actor.
Nikita Koloff, 52, and Lex Luger, 53, are now traveling and pushing the Vemma supplement line.
For what Kurt Angle claimed doing an interview on a pro wrestling Internet radio show, he claimed he only had a slight tear in his hamstring but the reason his leg looked so bad to everyone was because there was a lot of bleeding from the tear and the blood went from his hamstring down to his foot but the injury wasn’t as bad as everyone thought it was. He claimed he was already back training . He claimed in his attempt to go to the Olympics that his major obstacle is Jake Varner, who he said was guaranteed to medal if he goes to the Olympics. Varner is hardly guaranteed to medal in the Olympics, but after placing third this year at the world championships, he is a contender for a medal. He said if he beats Varner then he will go to Colorado Springs and train at the Olympic camp. All I know is whenever I talk with people in amateur wrestling, and in all the amateur magazines I read, Angle’s name is never talked about. He claims he’s talked to Dana White and that even though White denies the offers he’s made to him, he respects White so much that he won’t say exactly what was offered, but again claims he passed the physical even though White said he didn’t and even though White says bad things in the press about him he loves him to death.
I had a chance to talk with Lesnar over the weekend. The guy is enormous, the biggest I’ve seen him in years. He said he’s 278 pounds, and later, when he was at a press conference, rolled up his sleeve a few times and did the Superstar Graham right biceps pose. You may see football players who are 6-3 and 278, but they aren’t huge like this. People noted that Overeem, who is 6-5 and 260, is a big guy, but Lesnar seems so much bigger and thicker. As far as what that means in a fight is anyone’s guess. He noted that since his surgery, he’s been able to eat more the way he likes to, with red meat and ground round again. He was training at 265 and not cutting for the Carwin and Velasquez fights. He’s going to stay at this weight, but water to make weight, so he’ll be heavier fighting. Marty Morgan, his coach, said he’s the strongest he’s been in years. Lesnar said since the 2009 Diverticulitis attack, not only did he change and watch his diet, but he didn’t have much of an appetite so he was force feeding himself to get to 265, which wasn’t fun. Now his appetite is back, and he’s on a better diet than before, but not eliminating the meat and going low protein. He started training in September, so he had 11 months off and major surgery, plus he’s 34 and during his time off it’s not like his skill level and weaknesses were going to magically improve. The fight with Overeem is likely to be one or two rounds, with either an Overeem knockout or a Lesnar ground and pound, so it’s all about whether Lesnar can take him down and keep him down, and avoid Overeem’s guillotine and other submissions on the ground. Standing, Lesnar is not likely to last long.
Alistair Overeem filed suit against his management team, Golden Glory, in Los Angeles County Superior Court. Overeem claimed he was misled into signing his management contract with Golden Glory and said they tried to book him into high profile fights when he wasn’t healthy enough to perform. That may be the deal where Golden Glory offered Overeem to face Antonio Silva on the Cincinnati show when Overeem was injured, but would only do so if UFC paid a huge sum of money. UFC balked at the new price, and felt they were being set up since they knew they were being offered Overeem, but only if they paid through the nose. That is why they had no qualms cutting him from Strikeforce and taking him out of the tournament when they publicly claimed Overeem was injured and couldn’t face Silva. Overeem said he signed a contract giving Golden Glory 35% of his pre-tax income, and that they owe him $151,000 (up until recently, Strikeforce, Dream and everyone who signed Overeem would send the check to Golden Glory, not to Overeem himself, which was part of the issues with UFC as they refused to send money to Golden Glory). Overeem also wanted to be let out of his contract so he doesn’t have to pay Golden Glory their cut for the Lesnar fight. Golden Glory claimed the lawsuit was a preemptive measure by Overeem because Golden Glory claims he’s violated numerous terms of his agreement including not paying commissions for recent fights or for endorsement deals they had gotten him. Overeem had left Holland and training at the Golden Glory Gym in Amsterdam, and now is in Las Vegas training at the Xtreme Couture Gym.
Ronda Rousey, who is going by the name Rowdy Ronda Rousey (the name Rowdy is because Roddy Piper was her favorite wrestler as a kid, and also because she is being coached by Gene LeBell, who also taught Piper fighting and through LeBell has met Piper and asked him if it was okay to use the name and he approved of it) was talking this weekend at UFC and said that MMA takes a lot of toll on your body and she feels she’s only got a four-year window in the sport. She’s been pushing the idea of fighting as often as possible, leading to a match in about a year with Cris Cyborg, if Cyborg is still the champion. UFC is very high on her, but may want to match her with Miesha Tate or Cyborg, but they definitely would want her to be a world champion because of the feeling she’s got as much potential star power as any unknown fighter in the organization. She’s attractive but in a non-threatening way to women (similar to Carano) because she’s 145 pounds, but is a much better athlete than Carano as an Olympic bronze medalist in judo from the 2008 Olympics. She’s also got a strong personality. She said that MMA is something that you need to devote 100% attention to, and she wants to open up her own business in four years and not be one of those people who try to compete at a high level with a lot of things on their plate and those things suffer. She’s right now 6-0, every win by armbar, all in 57 seconds or less.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:30 pm
by T200
Forrest Griffin was the latest twitter screw-up, writing “Rape is the new missionary,” which ended led to him having people call him all sorts or names, unfollow him and have him insult the people who were insulting him back. He did later apologize.
There was a murder/suicide involving two Atlanta-area MMA fighters. Police in Marietta, GA, believe Wilbur South, 28, who uses the name Sonny “The Pitbull” South, shot his girlfriend, Mary Ellen Cano, 32, and then shot himself. Both were found in their home in Marietta. There was a past history of domestic violence between the two. South had a 3-2 record, fighting a few times on the Wild Bill’s Night Club shows in suburban Atlanta. Cano also fought for the promotion. She had a 3-0 record, and in 2010 was named Female MMA fighter of the year in the state of Georgia. Reports were that he was bad news, while she was someone who seemed always to be in a good mood. She was lauded for her Jiu Jitsu game and for going in the gym and at 120 pounds, humbling a lot of the guys. Police believe the two were in a heated argument when he shot her, and then he shot himself. They had been dating for about two years, but had broken up and gotten back together at times. At one point six months ago, she showed up in the gym with the entire side of her face bruised up and she told people that South had punched her in the face. Over the past week, she broke up with him on Facebook and claimed she was going to the police to get a restraining order.
Bobby Lashley won what was billed as the Texas heavyweight title when he defeated Karl Knothe in 3:44 at the Shark Fights show in Lubbock. Lashley won with a Kimura. He’s been training for the fight with Josh Barnett. Knothe took the fight on four days notice after one person after another dropped out. While he hadn’t fought in a while, and had fought as a light heavyweight, he was bigger than Lashley, and there were people who expected him to win this fight. Lashley is now 7-1, and is under contract to Shark Fights for a few more bouts.
George Lucas’ daughter Amanda Lucas fought again for DEEP on 10/29 at Korakuen Hall, beating former woman pro wrestler Hari in 4:32 with a necklock.
Former Pride star and Fedor’s brother, Alexander Emelianenko was knocked out in 23 seconds by Magomed Malikov in the main event of an M-1 Challenge show on 11/12 in Astrakhan City, Russia.
Bubba Jenkins, the 2011 NCAA champion at 157 pounds from Arizona State, makes his debut on the 12/2 Taichi Palace Fights show in Lemoore, CA against Jason Williams. Williams, who wrestled at Iowa State, is also making his debut.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:44 pm
by Fat Cat
TEEEEEE! What up brah. I been meaning to ask you if you caught the UFC On Fox broadcast? Thoughts? I thought it was a fiasco. 58 minutes of shitty hype and then the worst heavyweight championship fight in living memory for 67 seconds. The average consumer tuning in for the first time could not have been impressed.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:20 am
by Chessman
Because it was on Fox, all of Asia missed out on that UFC. A lot of pissed off people were looking to the illegal sites because it was the only way to see it. Asian Sports Network picks up the PPV but can't show Fox stuff. And the fight sucked anyway.

I don't think UFC is ready to go where White wants to take it.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:06 am
by Fat Cat
Chessboxer, funny thing is in Europe the hour was broadcast on public channels, but instead of 57 minutes of commentator filler and training montages, they showed the undercard fights which were generally excellent. But the US audience got an hour of NFL-style bullshit and then one of the worst fights for a belt in the history of prizefighting. Plus it looked ghetto, Velasquez was flabby and unprofessional with his enormous BROWN PRIDE tattoos, Brock was incoherent, Dana looked coked up, and the fight was ended in 67 seconds with a haymaker so wide a retarded person could have thrown it.

In short, it was quintessentially atrocious.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:25 pm
by T200
It was a terrible broadcast that I turned off immediately following the KO replay.

It may have done the job for what they wanted but if it's a sign of MMA to come then it is ass.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:10 am
by Chessman
Fat Cat wrote:Chessboxer, funny thing is in Europe the hour was broadcast on public channels, but instead of 57 minutes of commentator filler and training montages, they showed the undercard fights which were generally excellent. But the US audience got an hour of NFL-style bullshit and then one of the worst fights for a belt in the history of prizefighting. Plus it looked ghetto, Velasquez was flabby and unprofessional with his enormous BROWN PRIDE tattoos, Brock was incoherent, Dana looked coked up, and the fight was ended in 67 seconds with a haymaker so wide a retarded person could have thrown it.

In short, it was quintessentially atrocious.
WHAT?!?!

That sucks. Me and my buddies all scrambled to find a site to watch the final and yeah, it was terrible. Velasquez was flabby as hell. did he really want to be there? didn't look like it. I can't believe they got the undercard fights. I heard those were so much better.

So why the difference in the programming for Europe? And on public channels? Ugh.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:14 am
by Fat Cat
UFC has a nation by nation television agreement, like with PrideFC in the old days. What goes into the decisions making I don't know. But yeah, for example in Croatia or Bosnia, it's all on free TV, even the PPV events.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:16 am
by Turdacious
Fat Cat wrote:UFC has a nation by nation television agreement, like with PrideFC in the old days. What goes into the decisions making I don't know. But yeah, for example in Croatia or Bosnia, it's all on free TV, even the PPV events.
Re Croatia and Bosnia-- are the Russians likely to fuck them over again with fuel this winter?

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:16 am
by Fat Cat
I really have no idea, that was a dispute between Russia and Ukraine so I just couldn't say...I should ask the family though.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:22 pm
by T200
11-28-11 issue
As more information was released this past week, the 11/12 Junior Dos Santos UFC heavyweight title win over Cain Velasquez was seen live by 9,566,000 people in the United States, shattering all existing records for an MMA broadcast in the United States by more than two million viewers.

The 64 second match did 8,802,000 viewers on FOX and another 764,000 on Fox Deportes. That number will easily top 10 million when DVR viewership is factored in. The number is even more impressive than it sounds because this was a live showing, which means that the entire West Coast saw it outside of prime time, while all the prior record setting fights had a staggered feed so West Coast viewers would have seen it in prime time when more people are watching television.

With all the hype directed at the show and the fight, and it being on network television instead of cable, anything but a record would have been a disappointment. For a wrestling comparison, the audience grew 1,722,000 viewers in the first minute and 2,702,000 over the prior quarter. However, it also lost an incredible 5.2 million viewers over the next ten minutes after the fight ended. Such swings downward have never happened previously on pro wrestling or MMA television and are more akin to a big boxing match, which this was promoted more as than an MMA card or pro wrestling television show.

The 60 minute broadcast averaged 5.7 million viewers on FOX and another 497,000 on Fox Deportes. The 3.1 rating was a strong second among sports events that night, behind the Oregon State vs. Stanford football game on ABC that did a 6.0 rating. The Maryland vs. Notre Dame on NBC did a 1.4 and Alabama vs. Mississippi State did a 1.5 on ESPN. However, the FOX broadcast beat the ABC football broadcast in Males 18-34, Males 18-49, Total men and women viewers 18-34 and Total man and women viewers 18-49. The show did a 4.3 in Males 18-34 as noted last week, 3.7 in Males 35-49, a shockingly high 2.1 in Women 18-34 and a 1.9 in Women 35-49.

If you look at the viewership by minutes and go with the idea that the fight would have maintained its first minute viewership (and in reality it was going to grow consistently until its conclusion unless the fight sucked, so this estimate is as conservative as it gets), had the fight gone three rounds, the average for the television show would have been 7.10 million viewers on FOX alone, and it would have done, and again, this is based on the most conservative estimate possible, and a 3.9 rating. In reality, the audience would have grown during the fight and rating would have been closer to a 4 in households and done a minimum of a 5.4 in Males 18-34, which nowadays would be an incredible figure in that demo, unless the fight was a total stinker, even then the number of people tuning out during a fight is going t be minimal if at all. It does happen, but usually only for bad fights with guys without names.

Had the fight gone into a fourth or fifth round, given that it would get the artificial bump from the audience tuning in to see the news on the FOX stations, so the number would be well above that. But that’s an impossible number to figure. The rating that they got was not a home run because of what happened, but they would have been a home run had the fight not ended so quickly. Everyone sees it the latter way because they’re looking more at the potential of where the sport is, not a number that was freaky “low” due to circumstances. It’s impossible to gauge had some of the talking been replaced by airing Ben Henderson vs. Clay Guida. A great fight doesn’t necessary mean a great rating and Henderson and Guida weren’t pushed. But on Spike, fighting usually will get several hundred thousand more viewers than hyping, even when the hyping is for big name draws.

The second show was confirmed by Dana White as being 1/28 from Chicago. It’ll be a two hour show, not a 90 minute show, which is already a change from the FOX side, and will have four matches. The plan is to once again produce this show different from the other shows. The PPVs are aimed for what they perceive as the PPV audience, which is hardcore fans, which for the current shows doing 300,000 buys or less, is probably the right way. When they do the 700,000 plus shows, they are getting a different audience and the announcing isn’t tweaked and in some cases does go over the heads of the people along for the party who are your “NFL fans” (I use that term not to mean just NFL fans but sports fans and casual people who aren’t familiar with UFC but watch because it’s a big fight, UFC’s own research shows that when there are parties at houses that the guy ordering the PPV is a big fan and usually the rest of the people there are friends and very casual fans who are there for entertainment and social aspects) who hear there’s a big fight. For FOX, the show is designed for the girlfriends of the guys watching, even though two-thirds of the audience is guys. They are trying to appeal to non-fans and do something that hooks them on the characters to make them interested in being fans. The idea of the FOX show is to get first time viewers and people along for the ride. They will be doing personality profiles on all the fighters and explaining the background of the fight, so people just don’t see two guys fighting (which the vast majority don’t care about, hence ESPN 2 Boxing and Bellator numbers being what they are). The show is not designed to be a fighting show but a show about telling stories where the fights are the climax of the story, in its own way a different form of what pro wrestling is, and to an extent of ramped up version of the Countdown and 24/7 shows.

The mentality is similar to an Olympic broadcast, where it’s the personality pieces that make people care about these sports and athletes that in most cases people don’t really know much about or care much about unless it’s an Olympic year. Plus, the idea for FOX is to make stars that you can sell as PPV attractions.

The card has not yet been announced, but will likely not have a main event of the level of Velasquez vs. Dos Santos. White noted that it’s great to know that 10 million people were watching that fight, but they don’t want to get caught up in that number as a benchmark, and don’t want to go with the mentality if the next shows peaks at six million that somehow that’s a failure. The impression is not to give away big PPV fights, but to fill the show with big names. To me you go with big names on top because you need them, a good attraction fighter with potential to click mainstream and fights you expect to be good with people you expect to go up with. Whether that means giving exposure to the lighter weight titles.

Among the fighters who are seemingly available for that date, in the sense they aren’t booked on the plethora of shows elsewhere, include Fabricio Werdum (if he’s even in UFC right now as last word he was a Strikeforce guy but most figured he’s moving over), Roy Nelson, Brendan Schaub, Rashad Evans, Quinton Jackson, Forrest Griffin, Chael Sonnen, Mark Munoz, Brian Stann, Demian Maia, Chris Leben, B.J. Penn, Phil Davis (who still wasn’t ready to fight in early December due to his knee injury), Rory MacDonald (also was pulled from 12/10 with a knee injury), Jake Ellenberger, Thiago Alves, Gray Maynard, Clay Guida, Renan Barao, Joseph Benavidez and Scott Jorgensen. It’s also possible they may move a fight from one of the upcoming shows if necessary. The impression we had is that at least the top four matches would be made. Evans vs. Jackson in a rematch would on paper be the best match and draw the highest ratings of all the possibilities because of their grudge and how well the last fight did as a PPV. But the flip side is that it’s a fight with no upside for Evans, and even the promotion, because if Jackson were to win, Jon Jones has already beaten him and in a way you can’t book the rematch. Plus, the first match was not very eventful. Ditto for Evans vs. Griffin, as if Evans were to lose (and right now based on each man’s latest performance, Evans would be a heavy favorite), you’ve just killed one of the bigger PPV fights and Griffin isn’t a viable contender for Jones.

People speculated this past week on Evans vs. Davis, which was a fight at once time booked for Philadelphia, but that fight may not do well in the ratings, and wouldn’t do as well as Evans with one of the other two. This would make sense with typical UFC booking, as Joe Silva’s rule is to try and match up people who won their last fights against each other and people who lose their last fights against each other, although that isn’t always possible and every situation is different when it comes to the right match for the right venue at the right moment.

The speculation next would lead to Griffin vs. Jackson, a rematch of the 2008 match of the year that Griffin won, which at one time one would think would be a great fight for TV. There is a question about how much luster Griffin has lost, but this is also aimed at an audience that for the most part didn’t see and probably isn’t aware of Griffin’s fight with Shogun where he got blown out. However, if Lyoto Machida wins over Jones, then Rampage vs. Evans would make sense because Rampage will have a win over Machida. Since they’ve got plenty of time after 12/10, I could see the idea of not committing until after Jones vs. Machida and then breaking up Griffin, Evans, Davis and Jackson in two matches based on what makes the most sense then.

Another fight that has gotten the speculation since both aren’t booked and are healthy is Sonnen vs. Munoz.

The one thing you don’t want is to have the big drop in the second show and with Evans vs. Davis on top you are risking it, although the four fights speculated on feature a lot of familiar names. A Munoz win and he’d be the top contender for Anderson Silva. The two have been training partners and friends. I don’t think that fight would do well on PPV, while Silva vs. Sonnen should do very well. I could also see trying to showcase Stann in a fight on the show because that show is about finding fighters that appeal to the public and they can tell stories with. Stann said in an interview with MMAsucka.com that he was asked about fighting Minowa-man on the Saitama show, had agreed to the fight, but then it fell through.

Dominick Cruz vs. Urijah Faber is unlikely for the show, White said no to that one, partially because Cruz is still recovering from surgery on his right hand; Anderson Silva isn’t scheduled to fight until June and he vs. Chael Sonnen is a PPV fight; Jose Aldo Jr. is fighting two weeks earlier and with Jon Jones on Dec. 10, there is no championship availability, Junior dos Santos fighting April or May, GSP on 2/4, Frankie Edgar on 2/26, there is no championship availability.

White noted that a bloodbath war like Dan Henderson vs. Shogun Rua would not have been good on FOX because there is an audience that isn’t ready for that yet, and you have to slowly bring them up to accepting it as a sport before those matches take place. He’s using that to justify Ben Henderson vs. Clay Guida not being on the first show as a good call, although that was not a bloody match with mangled faces, just an up and down back-and-forth fight which would have played excellently. The thing is, this early in the relationship, they are all far more cognizant that anyone can understand about the idea that there are people who are pushing very hard to get this deal broken and the wrong thing at the wrong time can give people ammunition.

I believe when the fight ended early, they should have called a late audible for two reasons. First, they already knew the Guida vs. Henderson fight was incredible, and it’s two more guys to get over on national TV, particularly since when they do Henderson vs. Frankie Edgar for the title on PPV, that show needs all the help it can get. A major issue is that fight would have put the show well past 11 p.m., and it’s one thing if a pushed main event does that, but another if an unadvertised filler match does. If that was an issue, they could have gone with Dustin Poirier vs. Pablo Garza, not as strong of a fight but at least it would fit the window. The issue is those two guys aren’t known at all and would come across like time filler whereas Henderson vs. Guida would come across as a second main event. But while some people would have tuned out if that fight was put on, it would not have been 5.2 million of 8.8 million tuning out over the next 10 or so minutes.

Again, that doesn’t mean a show filled with fights will hit this number. A lot of this rating was based on the novelty of the first show, the draw of being a heavyweight championship fight and the strong Hispanic drawing power of Cain Velasquez (who would have ever thought Cain Velasquez would be a television ratings draw?), which the second show will not have. The second show will be filled with fighting and less talking. But as we saw with CBS, it is not a base audience that is going to watch MMA, but an audience based on star power. UFC on Spike shows the same variations, as they have twice done 3.1s for longer shows, but most UFC live events on Spike do a lot lower, and they have been averaging in the 1.3 range the past two years.

Velasquez and Dos Santos are hardly the biggest stars in UFC so there was and is potential to go higher or lower for a second show, although they will be very hard pressed to do the Spanish numbers at this level unless Velasquez comes back with wins and is challenging for the title, and in that event, the fight would more likely be put on PPV. And the other thing is, if UFC obsesses over the ratings and puts on its best ratings fight, unless it’s a fight with a weird dynamic (like with a Kimbo Slice who was a great television draw but no necessarily a great PPV draw), you would be giving away a lucrative PPV match.

One negative thing I noticed on the show was the sponsorships. Instead of FOX bringing new sponsors to the table and higher level sponsors, the show had the same sponsors as UFC would have on Spike TV, Bud Lite, video games, Tapout, etc. There was no appearance of Dodge, which would have bene a breakthrough and was on a sponsors list that UFC listed in material to Sports Business Journal a few weeks ago. There were 15 national ad spots that we could see and about six that appeared to be local. FOX, which usually does about 5 million viewers in the time slot for first run programming on Saturday night (considerably less for reruns), charges $50,000 per 30 for time on Saturdays. No figure is available for UFC but they did charge significantly more than $50,000. ABC charges $85,000 for its Saturday night College Football Broadcasts for a 30 second slot. If you do the math, you can see that even if FOX breaks even on these shows and all the revenue generated would go to UFC, the revenue they can get if the show increases in length to 90 minutes would be equivalent to a PPV show that would do between 70,000 and 140,000 buys. If you figure this fight would have done a minimum 400,000 buys and the company itself estimated the figure at between 700,000 and 800,000 in its budgeting, that shows you in black and white how television revenue isn’t even in the ballpark of PPV revenue for a top tier fight.

The 9.5 million viewers would be more than any combat sports match, whether it be boxing, pro wrestling or MMA, on U.S. television in more than a decade. There were a handful of WWF matches during its peak that topped 9.5 million viewers on Raw, with the record for Raw being a Steve Austin vs. Undertaker title match that did about 11 million viewers. No boxing match has done so in more than a decade, but boxing has never had the platform, as some HBO fights have done huge ratings, but HBO isn’t in enough homes that you could even compare it to a Spike number, let alone a network number.

It still can’t touch the 33 million viewers of the 1988 Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant match on NBC, but the change over the last 23 years in television landscape makes that number an impossibility today for any sporting event short of an NFL championship game. And as a television entity, it’s doubtful UFC will ever be as popular mainstream as pro wrestling was during its peak periods.

On television and in the post-show press conference, Dana White said that 60 million people in Brazil, with a population of 200 million (the latest estimate from the summer is 203 million), were watching the fight on Globo. The next day, after ratings came in, White said the number ended up being 42 million. The Brazilian ratings services listed the show as doing a 20 rating and 52 share, airing from 12:21 a.m. to 12:52 a.m., with a total of 22 million viewers. Given the time slot, even though it’s nowhere near 60 million, that is still an incredible number.

On Fox Deportes, the Velasquez vs. Dos Santos was the highest rated fight in the history of Spanish language cable in the United States. The 3.88 rating for the second hour (they did the Raw gimmick of breaking it up into two hours and the actual rating for he entire show was a 3.64). The second hour was the third highest rated television show on Fox Deportes so far this year, trailing only two soccer games.

The show peaked at a 6.0 for the fight itself. The first hour, featuring Dustin Poirier vs. Pablo Garza and Ben Henderson vs. Clay Guida did a 3.4 rating and 365,000 viewers. What’s notable is that not there were 20% more viewers per television set watching in the main event hour than for the other two matches, which isn’t more people tuning in but meaning a significant number of people came to people’s homes specifically for the main event and not the two hour show. Henderson vs. Guida would have been the second most watched fight in the history of the station.

Fuel, which averages on 18,000 viewers in prime time, did 77,000 viewers for the two-hour pre-show hosted by Jay Glazer with no fights. It was the highest rated show of 2011 on the station. It was the highest rated in Males 18-49 in the history of the station. But this also shows how weak a station that much of the UFC package, including Countdown shows and six live events this coming year is going on.
MOST WATCHED MMA FIGHTS EVER ON U.S. TELEVISION

1. Junior Dos Santos vs. Cain Velasquez, November 12, 2011, 9,566,000 (FOX & Fox Deportes)

2. Kimbo Slice vs. James Thompson, May 31, 2008, 7,281,000 (CBS)

3. Ken Shamrock vs. Tito Ortiz, October 10, 2006, 6,524,000 (Spike)

4. Kimbo Slice vs. Seth Petruzelli, October 4, 2008, 6,451,000 (CBS)

5. Kimbo Slice vs. Roy Nelson, September 30, 2009, 6,100,000 (Spike)

6. Robbie Lawler vs. Scott Smith, May 31, 2008, 5,867,000 (CBS)

7. Quinton Jackson vs. Dan Henderson, September 8, 2007, 5,811,000 (Spike)

8. Gina Carano vs. Kaitlyn Young, May 31, 2008, 5,508,000 (CBS)

9. Michael Bisping vs. Matt Hamill, September 8, 2007, 5,475,000 (Spike)

10. Fedor Emelianenko vs. Brett Rogers, November 7, 2009, 5,467,000 (CBS)

11. Jake Shields vs. Paul Daley, October 4, 2008, 5,338,000 (CBS)

12. Gina Carano vs. Kelly Kobold, October 4, 2008, 5,171,000 (CBS)

13. Andrei Arlovski vs. Roy Nelson, October 4, 2008, 5,154,000 (CBS)

14. Kendall Grove vs. Chris Price, October 10, 2006, 5,100,000 (Spike)

15. Mirko Cro Cop vs. Cheick Kongo, September 8, 2007, 5,098,000 (Spike)

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:27 pm
by T200
Details of Hulk Hogan’s divorce settlement with wife Linda Bollea came out this past week in a St. Petersburg Times news story, which noted that in the divorce settlement in 2009, Linda received greater than 70% of the couple’s marital assets, which explains why Hogan was in such bad financial condition and told people he was heavily in debt.

That also explains why his out of court settlement to the Graziano family regarding the auto accident when son Nick crashed his car, seriously injuring best friend John Graziano, was reported recently as being far less than expected, estimated at $5 million or less even though Graziano is likely to need round the clock care for the rest of his life.

Besides the assets, Hogan agreed to give Linda Bollea 40% ownership in several companies that he owned and $3 million as a property settlement. The previously confidential settlement went public this past week when it was attached to a filing made by Hogan’s attorney.

The filing showed that at the time of the settlement in 2009, the couple had $10,410,000 in the bank and in various investments. The split saw Linda get $7,440,000 in cash and investments and Hulk get $2,970,000. This doesn’t include the other $3 million and whatever their businesses were worth. The agreement included Hulk not having to pay Linda any alimony.

The agreement was also that Hulk does not have to pay a percentage of any money he earns from personal appearances or from sales of his book, “My Life Outside the Ring.” Both agreed to sell their two major properties, a beach house in Clearwater and the mansion in Bellaire where “Hogan Knows Best” was filmed. The Clearwater home was sold for $1.65 million which Linda kept as part of her $3 million payment.

Hulk still lives in the mansion, which has been for sale for several years with no takers. It is currently listed at $8.87 million, after it at one point was for sale for more than $20 million. When it sells, Hulk will have to pay Linda the other $1.35 million off the top and the rest of the sale price will be split 50-50 between the two of them.

Also as part of the settlement, Linda got the couples’ Mercedes Benz, their Cadillac Escalade, a Corvette, a Rolls Royce and various off-road vehicles. Hulk kept all the other vehicles.

If Hogan’s settlement with the Grazianos was $5 million, that would put him financially in the hole, until he can dig out of it between his wrestling earnings and other business endeavors, until the sale of his house.

The details became public over a court order where Linda had sued to get her share of revenue from the various companies they owned. In December, a judge in Pinellas county ordered Hulk to pay $126,000. Hogan appealed the verdict, claiming that $126,000 would have been 40% of the gross revenues, and not 40% of the net revenues. However, the Court of Appeals sided with Linda.
David Houston, the attorney for Hulk, is arguing both rulings were faulty because she should only be entitled to cash in 40% of the profits, not total revenue. In theory, that would make sense as far as a business goes. Houston noted they have to make it clear because the ruling applies to all revenues and profits from his businesses going forward as long as these companies exist.

Hulk settled the often hostile divorce in 2009, and based on the terms, he got raked over the coals and just wanted it over since the terms were so generous to her. He also settled to limit what could be said publicly about aspects of their lives and to seal court records in the divorce, which would seem to indicate he felt things could be damaging to him to make such a settlement on such bad terms for himself.
Part two of the pro wrestling experiences of fighters in UFC, this time starting with UFC 17on May 15, 1998 and ending with UFC 27 on September 22, 2000.

SHONIE CARTER - Real name Mearion Shonie Bickem III, the former college wrestler debuted in MMA in 1997 and still fights on smaller circuit shows. He’s long wanted to break into pro wrestling, but didn’t debut until earlier this year on an ACPW independent show. Carter debuted in Pancrase in 1999 and UFC in 2000, and scored his biggest win in 2001 when he knocked out Matt Serra with a spinning back fist. He also appeared on season four of the Ultimate Fighter in 2006, but was cut after losing to Marcus Davis. Carter’s listed record is 50-27-7, but since he’s fought so often on smaller shows, it is most likely that he has dozens more fights that aren’t listed on his record.

KATSUHISA FUJII - A regular pro wrestler in the early days of Zero-One, as well as Hustle, All Japan, U-Style and the IGF, Fujii fought six times in Pancrase, once in RINGS as well as in both Pride and the UFC, had a 9-18-1 MMA career record, losing eight of nine fights between 2004 and 2009. His only UFC match was on a Japan show in an under-200 pound tournament in 1999, where he beat Masatatsu Yano, but lost in the tournament final to Kenichi Yamamoto.

JASON GODSEY - Godsey fought twice in UFC, losing to Pete Williams and Jeremy Horn after being a Pancrase regular from 1997 to 1999, losing to most of the top guys but scoring a win with a forearm choke on Yuki Kondo.

ALLAN GOES - The Brazilian Jiu Jitsu star, who fought in UFC, Pride and the IFL, was involved in a landmark match on May 13, 1995, a draw with Frank Shamrock in Pancrase. Billed as Allen Gracie, he was brought to Japan as an outsider with the idea of a Shamrock facing a Gracie when Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie was UFC’s top program. He was not actually a Gracie, but billed as having a 150-0 record even though it’s listed as his first MMA fight. What is notable is that even though Pancrase had mostly shoot matches in that era, they were still a stable of fighters who had unwritten rules of sportsmanship and cooperation. Goes vs. Shamrock was the most real actual fight of the era as Goes would attack the face on the ground and use other tactics that were legal but the Pancrase group wouldn’t use on each other. The fight saw each man get a submission (broken by a rope break) on the other, and Goes also refused to tap on a heel hook and needed surgery after the fight.

DAN HENDERSON - Still headlining in a career that dates back to 1997, Henderson won the 32-man RINGS King of Kings tournament in late 1999 and early 2000 when that organization moved from working to shooting. It was at the time the first formerly working pro wrestling company doing a major shoot tournament under something that resembled MMA rules (WWE had done a shoot tournament the year before under entirely different rules). Henderson beat Bakouri Gogitidze, Hiromitsu Kanehara, Gilbert Yvel, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira and Renato Babalu Sobral, the latter two via controversial decision, to take the tournament. It was even more impressive as he was 195 pounds at the time, in a heavyweight tournament. The former two-time U.S. Olympian and three-time national Greco-Roman champion went on to become the first man to hold major world titles in two weight classes at the same time when he held the Pride middleweight (now light heavyweight) and welterweight (now middleweight) titles. He’s now 28-8 including wins over Fedor Emelianenko, Renzo Gracie, Murilo Bustamante (twice), Wanderlei Silva, Vitor Belfort, Rich Franklin and Michael Bisping.

BOBBY HOFFMAN - A much troubled fighter who was an original Miletich team member, the heavyweight brawler is listed as having fought 49 times in a career from 1998 to 2006. He was considered one of the top heavyweights in the sport when he debuted in UFC in 2000, losing via decision to Maurice Smith. He later knocked out strongman competitor Mark Robinson, but the decision was overturned due to failing a New Jersey drug test. His final UFC fight was a 2001 knockout loss to Josh Barnett. Hoffman has 10 matches with RINGS during both its shoot and working period, including a knockout win over Alistair Overeem in 2000 and a loss to Volk Han that same year. During his career he had wins over Paul Buentello (who beat him in a rematch), Heath Herring and Ricco Rodriguez, as well as pro wrestlers Mikhail Ilioukhine, Ryushi Yanagisawa and Joop Kasteel, finishing with a listed 36-10-1, 2 no contest record.

JEREMY HORN - The still active veteran fighter who has fought more than 100 fights, with a listed 88-21-5 record (and most likely there are a number of fights not listed due to incomplete records) in a career that dates back to 1996, fought ten times for RINGS and once for Pancrase as well as 13 times for UFC, including losing title matches with Frank Shamrock in 1998 and Chuck Liddell in 2005. During his career he has three wins over Chael Sonnen (twice by submission, once via cut), is the only person to hold a submission win over Liddell as well as wins over Forrest Griffin and pro wrestlers Yoshihisa Yamamoto and Chris Haseman. He also lost to pro wrestlers Kiyoshi Tamura and Hiromitsu Kanehara in RINGS. and drew with Dan Severn. None of his RINGS matches were worked matches, although at the time, a lot of people thought one of his Abu Dhabi matches was.

MATT HUGHES - The UFC legend, a two-time welterweight champion and the person who holds the record for most victories in UFC with 18, had two matches with RINGS in 2000 and 2001, winning decisions over Christopher Haseman and Hiromitsu Kanehara. Hughes fought in UFC as early as 1999, but didn’t go exclusively until he won the welterweight title from Carlos Newton in 2001.

YUKI KONDO - Kondo was voted by Tokyo Sports as the 1996 pro wrestling rookie of the year when he scored wins over Takafumi Ito, Osami Shibuya, Minoru Suzuki, Semmy Schilt, Keiichiro Yamamiya, Pete Williams and Frank Shamrock. In 1997, he beat Masakatsu Funaki to become the King of Pancrase champion, although most feel Funaki dropped the title to him to create a new headliner, and when he wanted it back a few months later, was able to win it without much problem. Kondo fought 86 times before retiring in 2010, and during his career held the King of Pancrase heavyweight title twice, the light heavyweight title once and the middleweight title once. He fought three times in UFC in 2000 and 2001, a win over Alexandre Dantes, which led to a loss to Tito Ortiz in just 1:52 when challenging for the under-200 pound title as Kondo was giving up considerable size and weight to Ortiz. He also lost a decision to Vladimir Matyushenko. He finished with a 52-26-8 record, including wins over Guy Mezger, Jason DeLucia, Ikuhisa Minowa, Mario Sperry and lost a split decision that many feel he should have won on the 2004 New Year’s Eve show to Dan Henderson.

SIONE LATU - Latu, the younger brother of Sione Vailahi (The Barbarian, who was part of the Powers of Pain tag team with Warlord), scored a first round knockout in UFC 19 over Joey Roberts in 1999. He never fought in MMA again. Latu worked independents in the Carolinas at the time.

JOHN LOBER - Stemming from a win over Frank Shamrock via decision when Shamrock gassed out 20 minutes into a 30 minute fight with no rounds, Lober became a name fighter. He challenged Shamrock for the UFC title in the main event of UFC Brazil in 1998, quitting at 7:40 due to strikes. Lober also did six matches with Pancrase in Japan, going 0-3-3 between 1997 and 1999, including losses to Kiuma Kunioku, Minoru Suzuki and Ryushi Yanagisawa, and a draw with Yoshiki Takahashi.

ANDRE ROBERTS - The 350-pound Chief Andre Roberts was a Midwest independent wrestler who went into MMA and had a 14-2-1 record, including three fights in UFC in 1998 and 1999, with a win over Ron Waterman and a loss to Gary Goodridge.

BAS RUTTEN - Modern fans may know of Rutten as the host of Inside MMA, but Rutten was one of the original foreign MMA stars in Japan, and later a UFC champion, and with the exception of maybe Volk Han, was one of the best fighters with no experience at adapting to pro wrestling. Perhaps more than any MMA fighter, Rutten, because he had the right look, could talk, and had exceptional athletic ability, was probably the guy who could have been a sure-thing pro wrestling star in North America. WWF was interested in him but he turned it down due to the travel schedule. Rutten started on the first Pancrase show, and never did a worked match with the group. He went 28-4-1 in a career from 1993 to 1999 (he had a comeback match in 2006), winning 21 and having one draw in his last 22 fights. He beat Tsuyoshi Kosaka and Kevin Randleman (in a very controversial decision) to win a tournament to become the UFC heavyweight champion even though he only weighed 201 pounds at the time, but retired to go it acting after winning the tournament in 1999. He also held wins over Frank Shamrock (winning two of their three bouts), Ryushi Yanagisawa (twice), Maurice Smith (twice), Minoru Suzuki (twice), Guy Mezger, Jason DeLucia (twice) and Masakatsu Funaki. Rutten vs. Funaki on September 7, 1996, Tokyo, was considered the best fight in the early history of MMA and is the only match in history to be under consideration for Match of the Year in both martial arts publications as well as pro wrestling in Japan. After retiring from fighting, Rutten did pro wrestling from 2000 to 2002, appearing as a headliner with New Japan Pro Wrestling where he challenged Yuji Nagata for the IWGP title, Koji Kanemoto for the IWGP jr. title and had a match that got Japanese match of the year votes by Tokyo Sports against Osamu Nishimura, as well as had a couple of great matches against Hiroshi Tanahashi.

DAIJYU TAKASE - 170-pound Takase made his name on the third Pride show in 1998, when he took on 650-pound Emmanuel Yarborough, It was one of the most talked about fights of its time, as Takase ran away from Yarborough for the first round, and in doing so, gassed Yarborough out, and beat him in the second round when he was too exhausted to continue. Takase was on the second UFC show in Japan in 1999, but lost to Kenichi Yamamoto in an under-200 pound tournament. His MMA career wasn’t noteworthy aside from beating two former UFC champions, winning a decision over Carlos Newton on Pride show in 2004, and submitting Anderson Silva with a triangle in 8:33 in what in hindsight has to be one of the biggest upsets in the sport’s history. Takase worked as a pro wrestler in Japan as well. He last fought in the spring of 2010 and has a career record of 9-13-2. He did another UFC fight, where he came in outweighed by 30 pounds by Jeremy Horn and took a terrible beating. Some say this fight was the reason why Nevada officials, who were at the show in Iowa, decided against sanctioning MMA under Bob Meyrowitz. Takase also was a regular with Pancrase from 1999-2001, including losses to Ikuhisa Minowa (now Minowa-man) and Nate Marquardt.

EVAN TANNER - Tanner was a self-taught fighter who learned the sport by watching videotapes. He had never wrestled until his sophomore year in high school, but won the Texas state title as a junior and a senior. He had major college offers but dropped out and became a drifter. When Steve Nelson, the son of pro wrestlers Gordon Nelson and Maria LaVerne, started the USWF out of Amarillo, a mostly shoot organization promoted as the new version of pro wrestling in a city where pro wrestling had a rich history, and drew big crowds locally for a few years. Nelson recruited Tanner, a well known local athlete, to be his star. Tanner, at 190 pounds, won the USWF heavyweight title in 1997 and retained it against heavyweights, until 2000, when the organization shut down. Nelson, seeing that the novelty had worn out, sold the organization to Tanner, who couldn’t make a go of it. Tanner was already a star in Japan for Pancrase by that time and debuted in UFC in 1999, earning a light heavyweight title shot with Tito Ortiz, that he lost in :32 from a slam. He held the UFC middleweight title briefly in 2005, beating David Terrell for the vacant title before losing to Rich Franklin. But Tanner’s misused his physical talents because of his alcoholism and he abuse of his body took its toll as he got older. He drifted from place to place, taking all kinds of different jobs, before his death in 2008 from heat exposure while in the 118 degree desert and running out of water. After his death, he became a celebrated unique figure, which included an article in Sports Illustrated and a movie that has been at film festivals this year.

RON WATERMAN - A former Division II All-American wrestler, Waterman, who had the pro wrestler look, fought four times in UFC in 1999 and 2000 going 2-1-1. He didn’t start in MMA until he was 33, and was signed by WWF in 2000 but at 34, the feeling was he was going to have to learn fast. Waterman was in OVW with the likes of John Cena, Big Show, Mark Henry, Brock Lesnar, Randy Orton, and Dave Bautista, and because of his resemblance to Scott Steiner, was put on the road. He choked out Henry once while training in OVW. He was cut in 2002, with the feeling that he wasn’t progressing fast enough, and at 36, time was not on his side. He went back to MMA, fighting in Pride and Pancrase, before eventually signing with New Japan Pro Wrestling where he got a pretty big push for a short period of time. Waterman was the high school wrestling coach of Shane Carwin, and later opened the door for Carwin to get into MMA. He was also close friends with Lesnar from when they were in Louisville together, and noted that he had trained and faced in competition some of the best wrestlers in the world, but Lesnar was the only guy who could take him down at all.

PETE WILLIAMS - Not the same Petey Williams as the TNA wrestler, this Petey Williams, was a Lion’s Den heavyweight who delivered one of the most memorable knockouts in UFC history with a kick to the face of Mark Coleman. Williams fought from 1996 to 2002, and once faced Kevin Randleman, losing in a bout for the vacant UFC heavyweight title. He was 12-6 as a pro, fighting his first three bouts in a 1996 Pancrase Neo Blood tournament where he lost in the finals to Yuki Kondo.

KEIICHIRO YAMAMIYA - A Pancrase regular from 1996 to 2010, Yamamiya appeared on one UFC show in Japan in 1999, losing via knockout to Eugene Jackson. He also did pro wrestling in Japan, and had a number of notable names on his resume, including MMA wins over Yuhi Sano (Pro Wrestling NOAH’s Takuma Sano), two wins over Minoru Suzuki and also beat Taka Michinoku in Taka Michinoku’s only MMA fight. He was the first Pancrase light heavyweight champion, winning the title in a tournament in 2000. During his career he has notable MMA wins over Chael Sonnen, Nate Marquardt, Chris Lytle, Dennis Kang, Yuki Kondo, Hiromitsu Kanehara and had a draw with Keith Jardine. He has not fought in more than a year and had a 36-26-9 record.

KENICHI YAMAMOTO - Yamamoto started his pro wrestling career in 1994 with UWFI, went next to Kingdom after UWFI folded, and eventually worked as part of a heel group called The Golden Cups, a heel group that also included Yoji Anjo and Yoshihiro Takayama, that worked in New Japan, WAR and several other promotions. He moved to RINGS and was used on UFC’s second show in Japan in 1999, winning an under-200 pound tournament with wins over Daiyu Takase and Katsuhisa Fujii. He later challenged Pat Miletich for the welterweight title, losing via second round guillotine. He continued to wrestle and do MMA through 2006, and came out of retirement last month to lose to Sanae Kikuta. His listed MMA record is 5-10-2, but there are pro wrestling matches from his RINGS days listed in that record.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:35 pm
by T200
Yoshikazu Taru and Mazada were both arrested on 11/22 by police in Hyogo for the 5/29 beating of Nobukazu Hirai (Super Hate). Hirai, 41, suffered a stroke, apparently during a match that night in a match in Kobe with Kenso (former WWE wrestler Kenzo Suzuki). Earlier that night, Taru, then 46, had attacked Hirai backstage, punching him many times in the face and head. Hirai had also taken a hard chair shot to the head from Kenso in a match on 5/22 in Kumamoto. He had continued to work the rest of the week. Hirai worked his match, and didn’t get up from the finish and had to be helped to the back. He then collapsed in the dressing room and was rushed to the hospital where he was diagnosed as having suffered a stroke and underwent emergency brain surgery. Hirai has remained in the hospital for the past six months. The story is Taru was fed up with Hirai, feeling he was now living up to his position as being a veteran by being drunk and dogging it in the ring. Mazada, Minoru Tanaka and Masayuki Kono were there and watched as the beating took place, and didn’t step in. Taru was fired and the other three were suspended, but have all returned to action. This also resulted in Keiji Muto due to the bad publicity and how he handled the crisis basically being forced to resign as All Japan President.
The 12/2 IGF show at Sumo Hall will be headlined by Jerome LeBanner defending the IGF title against Josh Barnett. Barnett is still under his old contract that allows him to do pro wrestling, and is probably the only Zuffa fighter who can still do it. Also announced in Yuichiro Nagashima vs. Bob Sapp, which is a crazy fight since Nagashima is a lightweight kickboxer and Sapp is like 330 pounds.
Things look really bad for Matt Hardy. Hardy was in court-ordered rehab which were terms imposed to keep him out of jail. However, on 11/17, Hardy was kicked out of rehab and then arrested at 1:40 a.m. on 11/19 when he returned home. According to reports from tmz.com, the staff at the rehab facility was suspicious of Hardy’s strange behavior and ordered him to take a Breathalyzer test. He failed the test. Hardy was adamant that he wasn’t drinking and claimed he failed the test because he had just used mouthwash. The people at the rehab facility didn’t believe him, and kicked him out. While Hardy publicly said he was volunteering to go into rehab realizing he had a problem, it later came out that the Moore County prosecutors gave Hardy an ultimatum, either attend rehab or he would be put in jail on $1 million bond. Hardy is expected to remain in jail at least until 11/28, the date of his next hearing. On a $1 million bond, you could probably put up $100,000 to $150,000 of your own money, and get out through a bonding agency. While Hardy has made a lot of money in wrestling with big years through merchandising, I don’t know what his current status is, as he’s not employed and really has no prospects for employment right now past the indie scene. Spending that kind of money to get out nine days earlier is evidently not something he’s doing. Hardy was still a month from completing the rehab stay when he was kicked out. He was booked into Moore County Detention Center for the alleged probation violation and held on $1 million bond.
This is a trivia story that I’d never heard before stemming from the mention of Ox Baker in the 1981 movie “Escape from New York.” Bruiser Brody was originally cast for the role. The movie was being filmed in St. Louis and Jerry Berger, a local gossip writer was involved in looking for someone to play the role and contacted Sam Muchnick, the local promoter, who suggested Brody. Brody was only going to get a few hundred dollars and had accepted it, but then pulled out because he was called by All Japan to be on a tour. This was one of Brody’s first tours of All Japan after Fritz Von Erich put he and Baba together. Brody called Muchnick to apologize and Muchnick told him that going to Japan would be the best thing he could ever do for his career. Muchnick then passed on Baker’s information.
Bas Rutten in an interview with Paul Lazenby talked about the business problems with Golden Glory and Alistair Overeem and took the side completely of Golden Glory. He mentioned that his daughter Bianca is now training judo with Ronda Rousey. Rutten said the split is all a money thing and that now that Overeem is making bigger money than ever, he doesn’t want to pay the people who helped make him. He said that when Overeem had lost several fights in Japan, they pressured Japan to keep getting him fights as they would push that if you wanted the top stars from Golden Glory, in exchange, take these guys as well (that was common negotiations from foreign agents in Japan). “I know what Golden Glory did for him. He couldn’t punch or kick when he came to them, and I mean he couldn’t punch or kick. Some fighters get big and then forget who was fighting for them when they were losing.” He said that when he was about to sign with UFC, that he went to Cor Hemmers, his striking coach, and wanted to renegotiate his 10% trainers fee. Rutten said that Overeem tries to portray it that all the coaches and fighters are on his side but his problem is with his management, and said that if you see at Cor Hemmers gym what the fighters at that gym did to a poster of him you’d see what they think of him. Rutten said Hemmers and Martin Da Jong, his trainers, would get 10% (total, not each) and were with him for 12 years. Rutten claimed when asked, Overeem said, “Yeah if we have to talk about people who contributed to my success, then I also have to mention my cleaning lady who cleans my house for 11 ½ Euros an hour.” “Just the fact that he uses the words trainer and cleaning lady in the same sentence is so disrespectful. And his new offer to Martin was less than one percent.” Rutten defended Golden Glory being paid by promoters, as they had insisted until UFC refused to do so, noting that Golden Glory would pay the trainers, sparring partners, work as agents and would make sure everyone got paid. He said that instead of the 10% that Overeem was supposed to pay his trainers based on his contract, he paid them 1.5% after his first Zuffa fight where he was paid directly, and that management and sparring partners never got paid, which is where they claim he owes them $151,000. Rutten also said Overeem’s contract calls for Golden Glory to get 30%, not 35%, and he notes that in the entertainment business in the U.S., he pays 30%, and noted if Overeem wants to move to California and get into acting, he’s going to have to pay 30% to management. Rutten seemed really mad, noting Hemmers had to go to the hospital twice of late with heart problems and never had heart issues before.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:41 pm
by T200
I have not seen this but was told that the first episode of the 24/7 piece on HBO building up Antonio Margarito vs. Miguel Cotto that aired on 11/19 has been praised as being the best episode in the history of the series, and one reader said it was the best promotion for a match from any sports or sports entertainment entity in recent memory, even beating the landmark job for Oscar De La Hoya vs. Floyd Mayweather which resulted in record setting business. What’s going to be interesting is this fight is one that should be in what I’d call the UFC PPV range. Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao draw bigger than UFC numbers. Everyone else in boxing on PPV draws terrible numbers.
Fedor Emelianenko beat Jeff Monson via straight 30-27 scores in what was universally called a horrible fight on 11/20 in Moscow, Russia before a crowd announced as a sellout 22,000 at Olympic Stadium. The crowd shots shown on the PPV did not show a full house but there were a lot of people there, but who knows if Moscow is a late arriving crowd. Russian prime minister Vladmir Putin (think Obama at ringside for a Lesnar fight and you’ll have the cultural equivalent) was at ringside, as he was the last time Emelianenko fought in Russia. A ton of mainstream outlets in the U.S. covered Putin being there and getting booed, noting his popularity has fallen (for what it’s worth, some papers claimed that Putin’s people put out the word Putin wasn’t really booed and those were boos for Monson). The show aired in the U.S. on PPV at 7:30 a.m. Eastern, so I’m guessing it did no buys at all, with the bad time slot and coming hours after a UFC show. Monson, 40, with shot knees, was so slow on takedowns that Emelianenko could easily defend them. Monson has weak stand-up but can take a good punch, and was battered for three rounds. He ended up with a ruptured patella tendon and a broken femur (leg) from Emelianenko’s low kicks. Emelianenko knocked him down in the first and twice in the second. Because Monson was more of a threat on the ground, Emelianenko would never follow up his knockdowns in going to the ground. Monson also went down from leg kicks in the third round as he could barely stand up but still lasted until the end of the fight. Monson was really just a heavy bag for Emelianenko for the three rounds.
The Manny Pacquiao vs. Juan Manuel Marquez fight in Mexico did a 31 rating and 37.2 million viewers, which would be the largest number for a boxing match in that country in recent memory. As a comparison, the UFC record when it aired on Televisa was a 13.3 rating for Brock Lesnar vs. Frank Mir. UFC PPVs air live in Mexico on cable TV now, which doesn’t have the penetration of Televisa so they don’t do network level ratings.
A New York Times story on a man who shot a semiautomatic weapon at the White House, Oscar Ortega-Hernandez, 21, from Idaho Falls, listed that he had one amateur MMA fight in July, winning via second round TKO. He’s accused of attempting to assassinate the president when he shot several bullets at the White House.
Stemming from the movie “Warrior,” and the Frank vs. Ken Shamrock bout that was never made, Evolution Combat Sports in Clovis, NM, announced the first brother vs. brother fight with Jeremiah Castillo vs. Angel Castillo for 12/10 in a 130-pound fight. Apparently it’s well known in the local scene that the two brothers hated each other which led to the match being made.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:13 am
by cunch
Fedor broke Monson's femur!? Oww.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:15 pm
by T200
12-5-11 issue

There was a huge Killer Karl Cox bio that I will post if anybody wants it. I don't know anything about him though.
The long-time girlfriend of Nobukazu Hirai committed suicide on 11/10. Little has come out about it, but she was pretty well known as she was a big fan who would come to the matches a lot. Hirai has remained in a coma since collapsing on 5/29 after being beaten up by Yoshikazu Taru backstage and also having a concussion the week before, and undergoing brain surgery.
Kazuyuki Fujita has sued Sengoku, which has pretty much disappeared, based on a breach of contract. It came out that when the group started, he signed a four-fight deal for $2.56 million.
Matt Hardy was released from the Moore County Detention Center on 11/28 after District Court Judge Robert Wilkins reduced his bond from $1 million to $100,000. Wilkins did so on the condition he goes back into rehab and completes the program. If he does not compete the program, he will be put back in jail and held on a $250,000 bond. Moore County District Attorney Maureen Krueger, the same District Attorney who prosecuted Jeff Hardy, said that this decision was made over the state's objections. Hardy had spent ten days in the jail. Hardy is facing four court dates for a number of different previous arrests that will take place between 11/30 and 12/21. The different charges he's facing are a Driving While Impaired charge; A possession with intent to manufacture, sell and/or delivered a Schedule 3 controlled substance (anabolic steroids); Felony possession of a Schedule 1 controlled substance (ecstasy); Felony Maintaining a Dwelling for Controlled Substance; Possession of Drug paraphernalia; Reckless Driving and a second DWI with a driving at an unsafe speed tacked on to it.

You know things are bad when your girlfriend puts on twitter that what she wants for Christmas is a boyfriend who is sober and doesn't lie.
Andre Davis was declared guilty by a jury on 14 counts of felonious assault in his trial regarding having sex with a number of women without alerting them to his HIV positive status that he was aware of. The women all testified Davis had unprotected sex with them. The story ended up getting national news coverage when the verdict came in. He will be sentenced on 12/21.
Angelo Mosca, a star in the 70s and early 80s who is even better known as one of the most famous players in the history of the Canadian Football League, had an altercation on 11/25 at a league alumni luncheon in Vancouver. Mosca, 74, and Joe Kapp, 73 (who was the college roommate of Curtis Iaukea at the University of California when they were teammates on the football team) were being introduced as part of a reunion of the 1963 Grey Cup (their version of the Super Bowl) game. They were showing the game, in which Mosca's Hamilton Tiger-Cats beat Kapp's British Columbia Lions 21-10, including Mosca's famous late hit that took out Willie Fleming, a star on the Lions, which is one of those plays that was remembered for decades in Canadian sports folklore. During the game, Mosca also nailed Kapp with what Kapp thought was a cheap shot. After the game was over, Mosca blew Kapp off when Kapp went to shake his hand. They were probably the two best known players from that game and were supposed to sit together as guests of honor as each gave a speech about the game. Earlier in the event, Mosca, who can barely walk these days and is often in a wheelchair, went to shake Kapp's hand, and Kapp, remembering the game, blew him off. Then on stage, Kapp offered Mosca a flower and Mosca kind of blew him off. Kapp suddenly shoved and slapped Mosca, and a scuffle began. Mosca tried to hit Kapp with his cane twice, one shot may have knocked Kapp's glasses off. Kapp punched Mosca in the chest and grabbed Mosca, and threw him down and a few people screamed about showing sportsmanship and one person in the audience who yelled, "Let them go" like it was the twice a show TNA pull-apart. People quickly jumped in between them. Kapp then apologized, said, "I'm trying to let it go," and then delivered his speech about the game. Kapp later became an NFL star with the Minnesota Vikings, leading them to the Super Bowl, and was the only QB to start in the Rose Bowl, the Grey Cup and the Super Bowl. Mosca started wrestling during the off-season and became a pretty big star in the mid-70s and was a top babyface in Toronto as the perennial Canadian heavyweight champion until the office was sold to WWF in 1984. This got not only a ton of mainstream in Canada, but was on the major sports web sites in the U.S. and was even covered on Sports Center.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:23 pm
by T200
Sean Haire, who wrestled for both WCW and WWF as Sean O'Haire, was arrested on 11/23 in Thunderbolt GA, on battery charges. Haire, 40, has a history of getting into fights. I remember when he was living in Hilton Head, SC, and got into a fight outside a bar and talking to police officers, they told me he was bad news and got into fights all the time (most which never went public). He had a number of assault charges on his record over the years, including a few against women. In his mug shot, what was interesting is that Haire was always billed at 6-6 as a pro wrestler, and he's standing with a tape measuring his height and he's closer to 6-2. After he was let go by WWF, he went to K-1 and did both MMA and kickboxing from 2004-2006. He went 0-3, losing three times quickly via knockout as a kickboxer. As an MMA fighter, he's listed as having a 4-2 record (that is only a partial record because there are several small shows in the Southeast he was on that results never got reported to the major sites), with his most high profile fight being a 29 second knockout loss to Butterbean.
Chris Leben was suspended by UFC for one year after testing positive for both Oxycodone and Oxymorphone, both pain killers. He may have a real problem because he failed the drug test on 11/5, after his fight with Mark Munoz in Birmingham, England, so he knew the date he was being tested, and both of those drugs aren't going to show up longer than about four days after you use them in a urine test. "I like Chris and I want him to do well, but based on his actions, he's been suspended for one year," said Dana White. "If he needs professional help, we are going to be there for him. We want to see him succeed not only in the Octagon, but in his personal life." Leben said, "I would like to make it known that I fully accept this suspension and apologize for embarrassing the UFC, my friends and family, and the sport. I'm learning that I'm my own worse enemy sometimes. I can't succeed in the Octagon or in life behaving this way. I've got to make some real changes over the next year and I'm going to focus on getting my life and career back on track. Again, I'm sorry to the UFC and fans that have supported me since my days on The Ultimate Fighter." This was the second drug test Leben has failed, ironically both in Birmingham, England, as he failed a test for steroids when tested for his 2008 fight against Michael Bisping. This was not a commission test, but a UFC test with Marc Ratner handling the drug testing. All fighters on the show were tested in some form. The one year suspension is the longest UFC itself has ever handed out.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:02 pm
by Fat Cat
I am not surprised, Leben's gym is on my drive home and about two months ago I spotted him on the sidewalk out in front. He looked huge, juice huge, and very puffy. The only sense of surprise I felt when he was popped was that he wasn't also hit for PEDs. The guy is clearly a self-destructive addict.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:42 pm
by T200
Yeah he looked way bigger in this last fight than when he got popped for Winny.

A little pre-fight Dilaudid never hurt anybody, right?

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:46 pm
by Turdacious

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:40 pm
by Fat Cat
T200 wrote:Yeah he looked way bigger in this last fight than when he got popped for Winny.

A little pre-fight Dilaudid never hurt anybody, right?
riiiight, and we know you don't take D orally. So I hear.

Re: Wrestling Observer thread

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:04 pm
by TomFurman
Fat Cat wrote:
T200 wrote:Yeah he looked way bigger in this last fight than when he got popped for Winny.

A little pre-fight Dilaudid never hurt anybody, right?
riiiight, and we know you don't take D orally. So I hear.
I thought Burt Richardson's vegan diet got Leben all buff and shit.