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Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:51 pm
by Turdacious
Move over Chick-fil-A, fast food is getting political again. Papa John's came under fire this week when CEO John Schnatter floated a plan to cut worker hours to reduce spiking employee health care costs under the Affordable Care Act, otherwise known as Obamacare. Now, Applebee's is being boycotted after a major New York area Applebee's franchise owner Zane Tankel threatened a hiring freeze and possible layoffs as a result of the president's healthcare plan.
Twitter immediately erupted with calls for a boycott.
'So far I've seen Papa John's and Applebees threatening to fire people since their choice didn't win the election. Disgusting on either side,' read one tweet.
'BOYCOTT APPLEBEES NOW,' read another.
'Add @Applebees to the list of unpatriotic businesses who are firing people because Barack Obama won,' tweeted another.
The Twitter uproar is in response to a Fox News interview Thursday with Zane Tankel, chairman and CEO of Apple-Metro, which owns 40 New York-area Applebee's restaurants. "We've calculated it will [cost] some millions of dollars across our system. So what does that say -- that says we won't build more restaurants. We won't hire more people," Tankel said.
Apple-Metro employs from 80 to 300 people at each of its Applebee's. Obamacare requires businesses with more than 50 workers must offer an approved insurance plan or pay a penalty of $2,000 for each full-time worker over 30 workers. 'If you have 40 or 50 employees at a restaurant, and the penalty is $2,000, and you're going to pay $80,000 or $100,000 penalty, there goes the profit in your restaurant.'
Tankel also hinted that lay-off and reducing employee hours were another possibility. 'I want to simply say we are looking at it, we are evaluating,' he said. 'If it's possible to do without cutting people back, I am delighted to do it, but that also rolls back expansion, it rolls back hiring more people, and in a best-case scenario, we only shrink the labor force minimally. Best case.'
Earlier this week Papa John's CEO John Schnatter told shareholders in a conference call this week that Obamacare would cost the company 11 to 14 cents per pizza, a cost that would be passed on to customers.
The response on Twitter was immediate, and largely unfavorable.
'First Chick-fil-A, now Papa John's. What does it say about the US when fast food has become the tool for political catalyst?' tweeted one person.
http://71.45.131.15/originalpeople/blog ... -obamacare
How the hell did they think it was going to work in businesses that are sensitive to labor costs?
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:29 pm
by Holland Oates
Any kind of profit to loss change is going to affect a company. We deal with it all the time at my job. The easiest way for them to mitigate loss is to cut jobs. It's not evil it's just fucking business.
Too many sensitive faggots that don't contribute now days.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:36 pm
by Batboy2/75
They are fascists. In their loony tunes world, where economic rules don't exist, businesses exit to serve the state. If he state enacts Obamacare, good fascists businesses will tow the line, regardless if they make money.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:11 pm
by Turdacious
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:22 pm
by Kraj 2.0
This is what you get when you raise a nation of do-what-feels-good hipster nitwits whose only skill in life is to look up internet memes on their iPhones.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:18 pm
by Pinky
The "pay or play" part of Obamacare is the result of Obama giving in to Pelosi's coalition of morons instead of actually fighting for reasonable reform. You will not find an economist of any political inclination who believes it's a good idea.
The gutting of the "Cadillac Tax" to appease the unions is another counterexample to the idea that Obama demonstrated any leadership in reforming healthcare. Instead he simply handed over his political capital and told Pelosi to burn it.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:24 pm
by Dunn
Kraj 2.0 wrote:This is what you get when you raise a nation of do-what-feels-good hipster nitwits whose only skill in life is to look up internet memes on their iPhones.
But I am REALLY good at that!
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:09 pm
by Grandpa's Spells
Businesses complaining in the press about having to cut back on shifts/jobs/hours is standard every time a political issue is raised that may cost them money. E.g., ending a subsidy, increasing minimum wage, passing a regulation. They always do this. If they're headed up by a political dude, they do it more, unless their party is in power.
Papa John's
is not in dire straits.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:24 pm
by Turdacious
Pinky wrote:The "pay or play" part of Obamacare is the result of Obama giving in to Pelosi's coalition of morons instead of actually fighting for reasonable reform. You will not find an economist of any political inclination who believes it's a good idea.
The gutting of the "Cadillac Tax" to appease the unions is another counterexample to the idea that Obama demonstrated any leadership in reforming healthcare. Instead he simply handed over his political capital and told Pelosi to burn it.
Don't disagree about the Cadillac Tax, but wasn't the 'pay or play' a component of Gruber's proposal?
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:20 pm
by Batboy2/75
Grandpa's Spells wrote:Businesses complaining in the press about having to cut back on shifts/jobs/hours is standard every time a political issue is raised that may cost them money. E.g., ending a subsidy, increasing minimum wage, passing a regulation. They always do this. If they're headed up by a political dude, they do it more, unless their party is in power.
Papa John's
is not in dire straits.
Papa johns is not an extension of the state. If the State wants people covered by health insurance, the state should pay for it directly or STFU.
Papa John exists to make money for the owners; end of story.
This is an example of an economic distortion Troy. The state passes a not so well thought out piece of legislation; Obamacare. Obamacare considers anyone that works 30+ hours a full time employees. These full time employees need to be covered by Gvt approved Health insurance or the business pays a hefty fine. Businesses, run by sane adults want to avoid these extra costs, so they start to employ and pay for more part time employees.
Btw- Papa Johns made these comments to their stockholders about future business issues as a result of Obamacare. Something that is expected and their fiduciary duty.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:45 pm
by Grandpa's Spells
Batboy2/75 wrote:Grandpa's Spells wrote:Businesses complaining in the press about having to cut back on shifts/jobs/hours is standard every time a political issue is raised that may cost them money. E.g., ending a subsidy, increasing minimum wage, passing a regulation. They always do this. If they're headed up by a political dude, they do it more, unless their party is in power.
Papa John's
is not in dire straits.
Papa johns is not an extension of the state. If the State wants people covered by health insurance, the state should pay for it directly or STFU.
That's not the way things work. The government already requires businesses to supply, for example, safety gear if they work in a job where they could be hurt. They have to carry workers' compensation insurance as well, in case they are injured.
Papa John exists to make money for the owners; end of story.
Absolutism that has almost zero bearing on the way the world works today. US businesses, while less-regulated than other places, see laws forcing them to do some things and restricting them from doing others.
This is an example of an economic distortion Troy. The state passes a not very well thought piece of legislation; Obamacare. Obamacare considers anyone that works 30+ hours a full time employees. These full time employees need to be covered by Gvt approved Health insurance or pay a hefty fine. Businesses, run by sane adults want to avoid these extra costs, so they start to employ and pay for more part time employees.
I might buy this hypothetical if there were widespread examples of it happening in Massachusetts when Romneycare passed. There doesn't appear to have been. It's not enough for there to be an incentive to do this; the alternative has to have greater appeal. Switching to a part-time work force presents its own problems that may not make it a worthwhile switch.
Not saying ACA is perfect by any stretch. They passed an improvement over the status quo, understanding that a better solution didn't have votes.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:49 pm
by Turdacious
Grandpa's Spells wrote:Businesses complaining in the press about having to cut back on shifts/jobs/hours is standard every time a political issue is raised that may cost them money. E.g., ending a subsidy, increasing minimum wage, passing a regulation. They always do this. If they're headed up by a political dude, they do it more, unless their party is in power.
Papa John's
is not in dire straits.
Papa John's will be fine if they can raise prices to cover the increase in employee cost-- in the aggregate it will hurt full time employment, jobs providing insurance, wages, and overall employment. This may affect Papa Johns, because these effects are most pronounced on employers that pay lower wages. Not sure the status of their drivers, but they may become 'independent contractors' instead of employees. Papa Johns will act to maintain their profit margin.
And if the employees have income between 100-133% of the federal poverty rate they are unlikely to have access to health insurance in many states anyway.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:55 pm
by Turdacious
Grandpa's Spells wrote:Not saying ACA is perfect by any stretch. They passed an improvement over the status quo, understanding that a better solution didn't have votes.
There's no evidence that it's an improvement yet.
States are having trouble with the new Medicaid requirements, and the fraud in managed care plans for the poor is difficult to catch (not that states or the federal government are good at catching fraud anyway). Medicare savings are still largely projections, and it could result in large Medicare Advantage premium increases in 2016. Costs to individuals for health care have also increased.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:39 pm
by Shafpocalypse Now
Papa Johns is terrible. Worse pizza tha little Caesars. That's the issue
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:32 pm
by DARTH
Pinky wrote:The "pay or play" part of Obamacare is the result of Obama giving in to Pelosi's coalition of morons instead of actually fighting for reasonable reform. You will not find an economist of any political inclination who believes it's a good idea.
The gutting of the "Cadillac Tax" to appease the unions is another counterexample to the idea that Obama demonstrated any leadership in reforming healthcare. Instead he simply handed over his political capital and told Pelosi to burn it.
It's nice to see someone besides a hack pundit point this out.
One more things that shows that he is happy to let a bitch tell him what to do.
And black people think he's one of them. Shit, the 3 blackest things about him are being abandoned by his father, having to live with his grandparents and his wife.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:37 pm
by DARTH
Turdacious wrote:Grandpa's Spells wrote:Businesses complaining in the press about having to cut back on shifts/jobs/hours is standard every time a political issue is raised that may cost them money. E.g., ending a subsidy, increasing minimum wage, passing a regulation. They always do this. If they're headed up by a political dude, they do it more, unless their party is in power.
Papa John's
is not in dire straits.
Papa John's will be fine if they can raise prices to cover the increase in employee cost-- in the aggregate it will hurt full time employment, jobs providing insurance, wages, and overall employment. This may affect Papa Johns, because these effects are most pronounced on employers that pay lower wages. Not sure the status of their drivers, but they may become 'independent contractors' instead of employees. Papa Johns will act to maintain their profit margin.
And if the employees have income between 100-133% of the federal poverty rate they are unlikely to have access to health insurance in many states anyway.
Carefull, those facts and clear thinking does not fit in the new order's dogma.
The same asshole who spouted about the middle class will make sure alot more folks wont rise to it and his bullshit Health care will hurt those in the middle class because they make enough monet ot get hist with the $2,000+ it's going to cost each year through it's "Tax".
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:42 pm
by Turdacious
Pcuker up--
the changes in FSAs and deductibility are regressive tax changes too.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:32 pm
by Pinky
Turdacious wrote:Pinky wrote:The "pay or play" part of Obamacare is the result of Obama giving in to Pelosi's coalition of morons instead of actually fighting for reasonable reform. You will not find an economist of any political inclination who believes it's a good idea.
The gutting of the "Cadillac Tax" to appease the unions is another counterexample to the idea that Obama demonstrated any leadership in reforming healthcare. Instead he simply handed over his political capital and told Pelosi to burn it.
Don't disagree about the Cadillac Tax, but wasn't the 'pay or play' a component of Gruber's proposal?
He might have put it in a proposal that he drafted as something he hoped would get past Congress, but it's not consistent with his research or his other positions. Even the Cadillac tax is a half measure that he supported only because he doesn't think actually eliminating the tax subsidy for employer-provided insurance is feasible. (It's not feasible, btw, thanks to politicians in the party he's allied himself with. Eliminating the tax subsidy is quite popular among Republicans.)
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:42 pm
by Turdacious
I'm somewhat familiar with his research on mandated benefits, but not the newer stuff. Pay to play would seem to me to be logical-- it would seem to reduce the relative cost of insurance while mitigating the increased adverse selection risk of other parts of the plan.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:46 pm
by TerryB
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Papa Johns is terrible. Worse pizza tha little Caesars. That's the issue
are you fucking crazy?
Papa Johns is good, and cheap (but now 11-14 cents/pizza more expensive...the horror!)
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:00 pm
by Pinky
Grandpa's Spells wrote:The government already requires businesses to supply, for example, safety gear if they work in a job where they could be hurt. They have to carry workers' compensation insurance as well, in case they are injured.
From two of Obama's economic advisers:
...changes in employers' costs of workers' compensation insurance are largely shifted to employees in the form of lower wages. In addition, higher insurance costs are found to have a negative but statistically insignificant effect on employment.
I might buy this hypothetical if there were widespread examples of it happening in Massachusetts when Romneycare passed. There doesn't appear to have been.
The pay-or-play penalty was only $295 in the Massachusetts bill. (Romney also vetoed that line, fwiw, but was overridden.) It's $2000 per worker in the ACA. There is evidence of the increased employer-provided healthcare lowering wages in MA, as it always does, but I doubt a $300 penalty is large enough to be separated from noise in whatever data you looked at.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:41 am
by TerryB
Pizza hut sucks though, that's for sure
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:44 am
by bigpeach
As a partner in a small business, I can say that ACA is more of a hassle than a financial burden. Enough paperwork to make a Jew whine is coming. That much is certain. What is uncertain is whether the rates we pay for employee health insurance will drop or rise from the already obscene level they're at (over 4 times what the city pays per employee on the same plan, because hey, we're only insuring 10).
But then again, you guys who worked for the government for a long time know way more about this shit than someone who actually pays for employee health insurance.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:56 am
by Holland Oates
Hehe
Snarky.
Re: Obamacare and ECON 101
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:09 am
by Schlegel
protobuilder wrote:Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Papa Johns is terrible. Worse pizza tha little Caesars. That's the issue
are you fucking crazy?
Papa Johns is good, and cheap (but now 11-14 cents/pizza more expensive...the horror!)
I've found the ideal way to maximize their quality is to order the pizza with extra sauce and cooked "well done". The crust will be browned on the bottom and not doughy then.