IGX

I'm preparing to teach my Sunday School class the 13 principles of Jewish belief. The first five are universal prinicples. To sharpen me up for the task, I'll enlighten you on ethical monotheism.

To the weak-willed Pavlovian dogs among you who can't resist the urge to post elementary-school Jew taunts every time you see me post, please show yourself to be more man than dog.

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Let's begin by clearing away some of the clutter that keeps these discussions from progressing. I'll start with a few working definitions of terms as I'll use them, and add a few comments.

Atheism is the belief that God doesn't exist. It's a path to a shallow, cribbed life.

Materialism is the belief that only the material - that which can be perceived - exists. It, too, is a path to a shallow, cribbed life.

Logical empiricism is the view that true statements are those confirmed by logic and scientific method based on empirical data - that which can be perceived. The corollary of this is that to discuss the truth of something that can't be perceived -- metaphysics -- is meaningless word play. This view, too, is a path to a shallow, cribbed life.

Agnosticism is an individual's view that he doesn't know whether God exists. He may or may not believe that it's impossible to know whether God exists. As a view for life, agnosticism is of little significance other than to distinguish the agnostic from the atheist and the true believer. The significant variable is how one acts. Most people who call themselves agnostics act as if a God who expects something of us doesn't exist.

That's enough for today.

And where does the faithful pagan fall into your categories?

Dunn wrote:And where does the faithful pagan fall into your categories?

That discussion comes toward the end as the substance of belief in God. Much ground to plow before we get there.

A bit simplistic on the difference between agnosticism and atheism IMO, although it's pretty good for a succinct definition.

It's a path to a shallow, cribbed life.

A rather broad generalization don't you think?

DrDonkeyLove wrote:

It's a path to a shallow, cribbed life.

A rather broad generalization don't you think?

Yes, and one I'll need to defend. I also overstate a bit to draw the line clearly.

Turdacious wrote:A bit simplistic on the difference between agnosticism and atheism IMO, although it's pretty good for a succinct definition.

The general discussion is very difficult. So I like to stick to only those elements of the definition needed to make the discussion intelligible.

Andy double post

Re agnosticism-- there's a big difference between the 'I don't know' variety and the 'I don't care' variety. I wish there were popular terms to differentiate the two.

How about teaching the kids about their Khazar roots. It'll explain a lot more to them than waxing poetic about the beliefs of a people you have absolutely no ancestry to whatsoever.

Turdacious wrote:Re agnosticism-- there's a big difference between the 'I don't know' variety and the 'I don't care' variety. I wish there were popular terms to differentiate the two.

I typically refer to the 'I don't care' variety as nonreligious.

Turdacious wrote:Re agnosticism-- there's a big difference between the 'I don't know' variety and the 'I don't care' variety. I wish there were popular terms to differentiate the two.

Apatheism fits the "I don't care" variety fairly well, no? I guess you're right though that it's not that popular of a term.

Hebrew Hammer wrote:To the weak-willed Pavlovian dogs

For example, a person who was born into a Jewish family, grew up surrounded by Jews and was conditioned into thinking he is on the right path.

Turdacious wrote:Re agnosticism-- there's a big difference between the 'I don't know' variety and the 'I don't care' variety. I wish there were popular terms to differentiate the two.

I fit into a sub category 'I don't know, and I don't really care either'.

Double post.

The most important thing is to ensure that the beliefs and traditions survive. Teach them not to question (or to question within a safe space only). Then Judaeism will survive and this is more important than any individual or anything in fact. Insult atheists and agnostics, using sophistry as appropriate. Carry on. You'll be a respected member of the religious community which is REALLY important too.

(For Judaeism, read Islam, Catholicism, CrossFit etc.)

Gorbachev wrote:CrossFit

Are there cookies after Sunday school?

you might want to spicy up the lesson with some naked pictures of hot jewish princesses. I know I would have appreciated that in this thread.

I`ll settle for some nice pictures of israeli women soldiers.

It's a path to a shallow, cribbed life.

Sounds more like a conclusion than a definition.

Now a few more definitions, and then we can head into the discussion. These definitions relate to ethics, the first half of ethical monotheism and a notion long-steeped in philosopy.

Part of the challenge in these discussions is to avoid circularity of the sort "Since God exists, you'd be foolish to ignore him." Stated like that, the statement's circularity is obvious. But more subtle versions regularly pop up, and I'll do my best to avoid them. So when talking about how one should live, I'll try to stick to reason-based ethics.

For this discussion, I'll stick to 2 types of ethics: The first is the more ancient one, living a good life; the second the more modern, doing the right thing. An example of the first: Senator Inouye led a good life. An example of the second: Senator Inouye showed courage in attacking the machine gun nest to protect his men.

What does it means to lead a good life? As humans, we're given the ability to love (parents, friends, spouse, children), play, laugh, compete, create, work, think, learn (by reading, listening, and doing), communicate, be spiritual, strengthen our bodies, participate in traditions and communities, appreciate beauty, and to get pleasure from all our senses. We live the good life when we live up to our human potential.

As to doing the right thing, I'll turn to that later.

13 Principles of the Jewish Faith

I just looked up the 13 principles of the Jewish faith and didn't see anything relating to ethical monotheism. Other than "I believe with perfect faith that G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him.", I don't see anything relating to ethics.

As always with the desert religions, doesn't it distill down to, G_d is super powerful, He's got His eye on you and He's ready to reward and/or punish your deeds so keep your shit together if you know what's good for you?

So, save everybody a bunch of time by telling the kids that there is a god out there who is THE G_d and He's ready to kick the ever loving shit out of them for pissing Him off. And, lucky for them, you just happen to have a list of things that they should do to keep on His good side. Class dismissed and it's time for Hamantashen cookies.

Cookies and photos?

Good luck with your class. I made a few edits that I think will improve your presentation. I hope they help.

Hebrew Hammer wrote:I'm preparing to teach my Sunday School class the 13 principles of Jewish belief. The first five are universal prinicples. To sharpen me up for the task, I'll enlighten you on ethical monotheism.

That's enough for today.