IGX

Good show that will appeal to many IGXRs. It is about how British military intelligence bugged the German POW's quarters in WWII. At the time this was a major innovation and some incredible footage was recorded, from both a strategic perspective at the time, and from a historic perspective.

You can watch it online:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/episode ... isode/947/

Best thing about this show is it helps me explain to people why I listen to NPR; I listen to NPR the same way the MI9 transcribers listened to Hitler's minions.

Thanks for posting this ccrow. I hope to watch it around lunchtime todat.

An older British lady who worked with my dad at the university worked during WWII as a censor for British Intelligence, opening and reading the mail of German POWs.

Like soap operas, she said that you got very wrapped up in the lives of people you had never really met, and all the little trivia of their days.

Bet those Krauts could absolutely kill Fran...

I bet your average, working man/woman German who is several generations removed from that period of history is beat down by this stuff. I can see Klaus right now getting up having some sauerkraut juice or whatever the average German has is morning, and he takes a look at the Entertainment section of the German Times and goes, motherfuck, here we go again...how many more times do I have to be reminded of this shit?

That being said, I'm watching it.

Shapecharge wrote:I bet your average, working man/woman German who is several generations removed from that period of history is beat down by this stuff. I can see Klaus right now getting up having some sauerkraut juice or whatever the average German has is morning, and he takes a look at the Entertainment section of the German Times and goes, motherfuck, here we go again...how many more times do I have to be reminded of this shit?

That being said, I'm watching it.

Well as I say to the American Indians and the Mexicans:" Loosing war has consequences." The USA could have lost but we did'nt so now the Creek, Apache, Cheyanne and Souix Nation, The British, Mexacans, The Spanish, the Germans and the Japs can all suck it.

The Indians didn't lose a fucking war so much as being systematically exterminated by the American government.

Why do you think there is such guilt surrounding Indian Affairs now?

Poisoning, deliberate infection, starvation, and bounty hunting took a far greater toll on the Amerindian than war.

Come on Shaf, you know might makes right. Especially when it's the US government that has the might.

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:The Indians didn't lose a fucking war so much as being systematically exterminated by the American government.

They lost the War of 1812. More importantly, they were on the losing side during the French and Indian War. Those losses put them in the position they were in later.

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Poisoning, deliberate infection, starvation, and bounty hunting took a far greater toll on the Amerindian than war.

Generally took place pre Indian Affairs. Not saying it was right, but they used the same tactics on each other.

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Why do you think there is such guilt surrounding Indian Affairs now?

There's no real guilt surrounding Indian Affairs. We took the valuable shit we gave them in treaties, and gave them shit/no compensation-- something nobody is serious about fixing (FWIW, white settlers used the same tactics on each other). The Hanford Reservation is a perfect recent example of non-guilt-- "sorry we irradiated your burial grounds and ruined your more valuable real estate, talk to our lawyers (translation-- fuck you)".

The lesson of Indian Affairs is how to fuck up a society with a poorly run government welfare program, a lesson we not only didn't learn from but repeated on a larger scale.

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:The Indians didn't lose a fucking war so much as being systematically exterminated by the American government.

Why do you think there is such guilt surrounding Indian Affairs now?

Poisoning, deliberate infection, starvation, and bounty hunting took a far greater toll on the Amerindian than war.

OK cool the little bit of Redskin you have inside you down and pop open some history books. There were many wars Shaf, and the Injuns lost them. Many of the best men of the Civil War were men who fought against the Indians previously.

Bruford of Gettysberg was a prime example. His Calvary did not carry swords and used dismount fighting tactics they learned fighting out on the plains and the South West

You honestly think we should have left the land to a bunch of people who did not figure out how to put a wheeel on a cart?

The White Man Bad, Red Man Good bullshit prevailing wisdom of the last 40 years or so is as asinine and untruthful as the prevailing wisdom of "They were all heathen savages and the US Army was the good guys." before.

It was a lot more complicated than that. Many Indians broke their treaties as well. They were brutal and shitty to each other and carried that through with the white man just as the white man was brutal and shitty with his own much of the time and carried that into their dealings with the red man.

There were disgusting acts and injustices by both sides. Those indians who assimilated into our larger culture made us stronger as a people. Im pruod of the red in my bloodlines as I am the white that conquered and outmanoeuvred them.

Guilt is a luxury of the victors.

I'm curious about the whole "deliberate infection" thing. I understand that there is a common sentiment that evil white people deliberately passed infectious diseases on to sweet and innocent natives, but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around this. Germ theory wasn't even really postulated until the mid-1800s, certainly not widely, and the idea of propagating it as a weapon was not known. How exactly were whites doing this when they didn't know what caused disease, how it was transmitted, or how it could be weaponized?

I'm not saying it did not happen, but I can't really understand how it worked.

Fat Cat wrote:I'm curious about the whole "deliberate infection" thing. I understand that there is a common sentiment that evil white people deliberately passed infectious diseases on to sweet and innocent natives, but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around this. Germ theory wasn't even really postulated until the mid-1800s, certainly not widely, and the idea of propagating it as a weapon was not known. How exactly were whites doing this when they didn't know what caused disease, how it was transmitted, or how it could be weaponized?

I'm not saying it did not happen, but I can't really understand how it worked.

Early on they did not know shit and it was unintentional. I've read figures as high as small pox and other European delivered illness killing more than 90%.

Later on though there are clear acts of giving blankets to Indians previously used by small pox victims but by that time that's just one side using it's head against the other.

At that point Natives had numerical and home court advantages so I can't look down at tactics that cut down the enemy's numbers and cause his civilians to have more pressing concerns than fighting.

I thought the history supported that many of the east coast tribes were well wiped out by disease well before the English really settled in earnest. In the decades between Columbus' discovery of America and the Mayflower smallpox wiped them out.

The small pox blanket thing is a mix of happenstance and myth if i remember correctly.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:I thought the history supported that many of the east coast tribes were well wiped out by disease well before the English really settled in earnest. In the decades between Columbus' discovery of America and the Mayflower smallpox wiped them out.

The small pox blanket thing is a mix of happenstance and myth if i remember correctly.

Happenstance, myth and white guilt.

The situation with Native Americans, and to a certain limited extent the Québécois French speakers was that we beat them, but then felt guilty about it. Instead of total annihilation or assimilation we allowed to cling to their cultures in a ragged fashion and set them up in a perpetual welfare state, causing no end of trouble down the road.

I don't know about modern Germans but for the most part I don't watch holocaust stuff. I am farily well informed on the topic, I get it, it was awful, pointless to rehash it endlessly.

However this show is definitely different, in my book, because it shows it from a German perspective, first person, while it was happening, not in a war crimes trial after the fact, not through the conqueror's interpretation, direct. Eye opening, to put it mildly.

Holocaust stuff aside, it is a great bit on the history of military intelligence.

Fat Cat wrote:I'm curious about the whole "deliberate infection" thing. I understand that there is a common sentiment that evil white people deliberately passed infectious diseases on to sweet and innocent natives, but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around this. Germ theory wasn't even really postulated until the mid-1800s, certainly not widely, and the idea of propagating it as a weapon was not known. How exactly were whites doing this when they didn't know what caused disease, how it was transmitted, or how it could be weaponized?

I'm not saying it did not happen, but I can't really understand how it worked.

Long before learning about germs people understood that diseases were communicable. I have heard of plague ridden corpses being flung by catapult in sieges in feudal Europe.

I have no idea if this is legit:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/smallpox1.html

Blaidd Drwg wrote:I thought the history supported that many of the east coast tribes were well wiped out by disease well before the English really settled in earnest. In the decades between Columbus' discovery of America and the Mayflower smallpox wiped them out.

The small pox blanket thing is a mix of happenstance and myth if i remember correctly.

Small Pox hit with the Conquistadors and it spread through out the Continent. It was not planned out but by happen-stance it was a great way to launch a slow invasion. Ypu are right there but there were still enough Indians on the east coast to make things interesting. (You see some early examples that shit on the whole Nobel savage idea there as well as some low down dealing whites.)

Aliens would probably hit us with a virus before engaging, at least if they looked at our history and asked "What kills these things with the best outcome from our perspective?"

Let disease do the hard work of killing off the masses and save military resources against whatever combative capacity remains.

WildGorillaMan wrote:

Blaidd Drwg wrote:I thought the history supported that many of the east coast tribes were well wiped out by disease well before the English really settled in earnest. In the decades between Columbus' discovery of America and the Mayflower smallpox wiped them out.

The small pox blanket thing is a mix of happenstance and myth if i remember correctly.

Happenstance, myth and white guilt.

The situation with Native Americans, and to a certain limited extent the Québécois French speakers was that we beat them, but then felt guilty about it. Instead of total annihilation or assimilation we allowed to cling to their cultures in a ragged fashion and set them up in a perpetual welfare state, causing no end of trouble down the road.

Well Put!

Kind of how I feel about the Jawas. Wipe them down to a curiosity and the Liberals and those who always find fault with their own and love the other can cry over it while the rest of us drive big cars with huge tanks of cheap gas and have the comfort of not having to deal with their asses anymore as a threat.

DARTH wrote:

WildGorillaMan wrote:

Blaidd Drwg wrote:I thought the history supported that many of the east coast tribes were well wiped out by disease well before the English really settled in earnest. In the decades between Columbus' discovery of America and the Mayflower smallpox wiped them out.

The small pox blanket thing is a mix of happenstance and myth if i remember correctly.

Happenstance, myth and white guilt.

The situation with Native Americans, and to a certain limited extent the Québécois French speakers was that we beat them, but then felt guilty about it. Instead of total annihilation or assimilation we allowed to cling to their cultures in a ragged fashion and set them up in a perpetual welfare state, causing no end of trouble down the road.

Well Put!

Kind of how I feel about the Jawas. Wipe them down to a curiosity and the Liberals and those who always find fault with their own and love the other can cry over it while the rest of us drive big cars with huge tanks of cheap gas and have the comfort of not having to deal with their asses anymore as a threat.

That's ridiculous Darth,

No one want to go to a Muslim Casino.

Thank God the Indians invented a smallpox vaccine, making it a thing of the past.

*****

Wiki:

Evidence that at least some measure of this plan was carried out is provided by the journal of William Trent, commander of the militia at the fort, though it appears that Trent had already done this before Amherst had proposed it to Bouquet:

[June] 24th [1763] The Turtles Heart a principal Warrior of the Delawares and Mamaltee a Chief came within a small distance of the Fort Mr. McKee went out to them and they made a Speech letting us know that all our [POSTS] as Ligonier was destroyed, that great numbers of Indians [were coming and] that out of regard to us, they had prevailed on 6 Nations [not to] attack us but give us time to go down the Country and they desired we would set of immediately. The Commanding Officer thanked them, let them know that we had everything we wanted, that we could defend it against all the Indians in the Woods, that we had three large Armys marching to Chastise those Indians that had struck us, told them to take care of their Women and Children, but not to tell any other Natives, they said they would go and speak to their Chiefs and come and tell us what they said, they returned and said they would hold fast of the Chain of friendship. Out of our regard to them we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect. They then told us that Ligonier had been attacked, but that the Enemy were beat off.[4]

It is not known if Amherst and Bouquet had knowledge of Trent's actions when they discussed the idea, or whether Trent had been given orders to carry out the plan or came up with it on his own. An outbreak of smallpox did occur among the area Indians at this time, but it is impossible to know if blankets from Fort Pitt were the cause. If so, it would be the only known case of deliberate biological warfare in North America.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Bouquet

Fuck Casinos, the Injuns got that down and God bless them for it.


As long as Robots and Third World born workers can suck the oil out of the ground, you could iradiate the whole M.E. for all I give a fuck.

Let the largest populations for muslim people be in Paris and Deerborn.

DARTH wrote:Fuck Casinos, the Injuns got that down and God bless them for it.


As long as Robots and Third World born workers can suck the oil out of the ground, you could iradiate the whole M.E. for all I give a fuck.

Let the largest populations for muslim people be in Paris and Deerborn.

Paris Texas maybe. I want to watch the TDF enjoy the Louvre someday without the stink of kebab.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:

DARTH wrote:Fuck Casinos, the Injuns got that down and God bless them for it.


As long as Robots and Third World born workers can suck the oil out of the ground, you could iradiate the whole M.E. for all I give a fuck.

Let the largest populations for muslim people be in Paris and Deerborn.

Paris Texas maybe. I want to watch the TDF enjoy the Louvre someday without the stink of kebab.

Good point!

DARTH wrote:<null>

That's what I tell people below the mason Dixon line

Listen, I'm not white bad red good you fucks.

The reservation system seems like the best way to keep that cultural group down, though, pretty brilliant giving them casinos and places where old misers like Andy can buy cheap smokes...$1.20 a pack of you know where to o on the Rez, suckas.

Don't forget the whole Alaska Native Corporation con.