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SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:48 am
by johno
http://www.wired.com/2012/02/jsoc-ambinder/

Someone in the military got all entrepreneurial, and flattened the Org Chart.
And blurred the lines between military & intelligence organizations, creating some serious oversight issues.

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:40 pm
by kreator
fresh off the press

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:45 pm
by Bob Wildes
If we require more oversight we will hamper JSOC's speed and fleibility.

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:57 pm
by Chris McClinch
I think the discussion of more frequent periodic outbriefs is a decent compromise. You want to flatten the operational chain of command, but a quarterly outbrief (essentially a PMR conducted for the armed services and intelligence communities) seems reasonable.

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:04 pm
by nafod
It's all about the Find/Fix/Finish/Exploit/Analyze. The first two are the hard ones that take real time, the last two feed back in to the first two. The middle one makes the news. Like every good learning organization, they adapted to where the real problems lie.

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:06 pm
by johno
Bob Wildes wrote:If we require more oversight we will hamper JSOC's speed and fleibility.
I agree. I'm not typically a "find a happy median" type guy. But outsourcing spy functions from the CIA to JSOC doesn't negate the reasons why we need oversight on our spies. Compounding the problem: we are opposing a religious/ideological movement that isn't contained to a war zone, and doesn't play by nation state rules.

We love Jack Bauer, but fear Big Gov't.

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:43 pm
by Fat Cat
If you can, check out the documentary called Dirty Wars. It is excellent and focused on the sword of Damocles that is JSOC.

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:10 pm
by Shafpocalypse Now
As long as they don't operate in-country.

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:53 pm
by Bob Wildes
Shafpocalypse Now wrote:As long as they don't operate in-country.

Okay then which governmental agency do you trust to take care of the Jihadis in country?

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:58 pm
by Fat Cat
FBI

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:59 pm
by Shafpocalypse Now
Fucking Christ, Bob, you are an old school motherfucker, you should KNOW the FBI is who should be taking out Jihadis in the borders of the USA...I'm pretty sure that's written in the charters...and now Homeland Security.

Whether or not they are doing their jobs well is dependent on what news you listen to or what websites you read.

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:13 pm
by Bob Wildes
I don't feel like getting into a pissing contest about this. Yeah, I know that the FBI is the official go to agency for the in country Jihadi threat.

I would feel a lot better thinking that JSOC was not totally out of the loop in regards to the above threat for a number of reasons.

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:28 pm
by Shafpocalypse Now

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:31 pm
by Shafpocalypse Now
There is supposedly a jihadi camp along County Road 3, near Sweeny, on the Gulf Coast of Texas...Upon a close perusal of google maps, I can see some candidates...however, I do know a lot of folks in Freeport and one of them is friends with Hussein Jones, the Muslim Police Officer and says he's decent guy, eats brisket but not pulled pork.

There are some sketchy looking places, sure, but that's small town Texas with no HOA for you.

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:33 pm
by Shafpocalypse Now
I would be OK with military operations within the border if there was complete transparency AFTER THE OPERATION. Strict oversight is too much to ask for.

There needs to be rule of law.

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:08 pm
by Turdacious
Bob Wildes wrote:If we require more oversight we will hamper JSOC's speed and fleibility.
and budget.

Re: SpecOps, a Two-edged Sword

Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:00 am
by johno
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
In 2011, U.S. President Barack Obama signed National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 into law. Section 1021(b)(2) extended the definition of a "covered person", i.e., someone possibly subject to detention under this law, to include:

A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.[8]
...
There are a number of situations in which the Act does not apply. These include:

National Guard units and state defense forces while under the authority of the governor of a state;
Troops used under the order of the President of the United States pursuant to the Insurrection Act, as was the case during the 1992 Los Angeles Riots.
Under 18 U.S.C. ยง 831, the Attorney General may request that the Secretary of Defense provide emergency assistance if civilian law enforcement is inadequate to address certain types of threats involving the release of nuclear materials, such as potential use of a nuclear or radiological weapon. Such assistance may be by any personnel under the authority of the Department of Defense, provided such assistance does not adversely affect U.S. military preparedness. The only exemption is nuclear materials.
Support roles under the Joint Special Operations Command
Interesting. It looks like JSOC personnel could operate within the US in support of law enforcement against terrorist operations.