IGX

Sec 6 and Sec 7 indicates that the companies building it will run roughshod over private property owners.

Plus all the oil is going to be sold to the Chinese anyway?

Convince me Obama wasn't right on this

Every time someone finds a major oil (or gas) field - they want to build a pipeline from there to wherever. Some kind of a long term "plan" might be a good idea before starting to crisscross every square inch of the country with pipe. What's the benefit to the US from a Canadian pipeline - answer - not much.

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Sec 6 and Sec 7 indicates that the companies building it will run roughshod over private property owners.

Plus all the oil is going to be sold to the Chinese anyway?

Convince me Obama wasn't right on this

Like anything else, it wasn't/isn't a magic bullet, but the coffee shop pundits of the world had convinced themselves otherwise. As far as the rhetoric in support...would have supposedly created 40k+ high paying jobs, would have aided towards America's goal of establishing more energy independence, and would have been a more economically efficient and environmentally friendly mode of energy transportation. Now is any of that true? I don't know.

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Sec 6 and Sec 7 indicates that the companies building it will run roughshod over private property owners.

Plus all the oil is going to be sold to the Chinese anyway?

Convince me Obama wasn't right on this

A ton of oil is being moved via rail these days, where it randomly gets dumped into rivers and onto the countryside in derailings. Pipelines are far better.

Pipelines are strategic infrastructure that help guarantee energy independence. Doesn't matter who we sell the oil to now. It matters who has access when the poopoo hits the fan. Nice to have our hands on the valve.

That oil will make it to China somehow. Might as well be in the refining, handling, shipping value chain and make money off of it.

We can do what needs to be done in a more environmentally responsible way than whoever else will do it.

nafod wrote: Pipelines are strategic infrastructure that help guarantee energy independence. Doesn't matter who we sell the oil to now. It matters who has access when the poopoo hits the fan. Nice to have our hands on the valve.

That oil will make it to China somehow. Might as well be in the refining, handling, shipping value chain and make money off of it.

We can do what needs to be done in a more environmentally responsible way than whoever else will do it.

Recap:

Safer because trains derail and trucks crash. Better environmentally for the same reason. As nafod said, it's coming out of the ground & entering the world market, no matter what the US does.

Better for national security. Not that other countries like Russia, Saudi or Venezuela would ever try to squeeze our nuts by limiting oil supply.


Final point: it doesn't matter where the oil goes. There is a world market for oil, and a world price. More oil will usually drive down the price of oil, as recent US developments have done/contributed to.

They better not approve this project. We don't need a pipeline going across our pristine nation

North America has an enormous underground network of oil and gas pipelines. In the U.S. alone there are 2.5 million miles of oil and gas pipelines — 53 times the length of the 47,000 miles in the US Interstate Highway System. Below is a partial map of just the largest pipelines that crisscross North America.

http://theenergycollective.com/robertra ... e-oil-rail

Looking at that map kind of proves my point that some kind of a long term plan might be in order - rather than just continue to run the damn things every which way around the country.

lol...they all end up by me.

Look deeper. Warren Buffet, the Billionaire that says nice things about Obama with a strait face owns many of those trains shipping that oil now. The XL would fuck his company out of that.

DARTH wrote:Look deeper. Warren Buffet, the Billionaire that says nice things about Obama with a strait face owns many of those trains shipping that oil now. The XL would fuck his company out of that.

That's probably why he has repeatedly said he supports the pipeline and that's it's likely good for the country.

Never heard of someone saying one thing and wanting another? This is the same guy who says he thinks the rich should pay more taxes and then has an army of lawyers fighting him having to pay more taxes.

DARTH wrote:Never heard of someone saying one thing and wanting another? This is the same guy who says he thinks the rich should pay more taxes and then has an army of lawyers fighting him having to pay more taxes.

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Sec 6 and Sec 7 indicates that the companies building it will run roughshod over private property owners.

This is my objection to the whole thing. Nothing about this justifies the use of eminent domain. Unfortunately, unjustified uses of eminent domain are not uncommon these days.

Plus all the oil is going to be sold to the Chinese anyway?

Everything people have said about oil being a world market is correct. China buys a lot of oil, and this is expected to put more oil on the world market. So don't worry about China.

But this is also why the "energy independence" arguments are bullshit. We are and will be dependent on the world oil market with or without this pipeline.

Pinky wrote:

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Sec 6 and Sec 7 indicates that the companies building it will run roughshod over private property owners.

This is my objection to the whole thing. Nothing about this justifies the use of eminent domain. Unfortunately, unjustified uses of eminent domain are not uncommon these days.

This is my main argument against as well.

Some action on that front:

http://www.omaha.com/news/nebraska/tran ... a2c67.html

Full disclosure: It will pass mere miles from my hometown so I'm somewhat biased by what people from back home post on Facebook about it. I have some concern over what a spill might mean for the Ogallalla Aquifer b/c that thing is massive, it runs from SD to the Texas panhandle. Admittedly a relatively small risk though.

Take the above map and then look up the map for natural gas transportation pipelines - awful lot of potential for spills and big bangs over the next several decades and beyond. I have seen what one of the big gas lines do then they explode and its not something you'd want to happen in your backyard. The whole water contamination issue will only be addressed if and when something major occurs that can't be covered up. I live in SE Ohio and we'll be seeing more and more lines locally due to the fracking and new supplies available here and in Penn.

I live in a town just west of the big Bakken oil fields. We now have 23 trains a day running through town instead of the usual 8 or so of the previous decade. Most of those trains carry oil tankers. The tracks are only a few blocks from my home. The potential for disaster grows. So I was originally in favor of the pipeline. I wanted to stop the trains.

BUT, it turns out that the xl pipeline carries tar sands, a gritty product that is not oil. Therefore, we in Montana couldn't get a up ramp for our Bakken crude. The pipe carries tar sands slurry, not crude. So If the pipeline was built, we'd still have the same number of trains through town.

So who does the pipeline help? Well, there're those 40,000 jobs construction jobs. Put a two year cap on them. After that, it would employ about 35 people. It does help big Canadian companies who want to expand their tar sands operations. But will it help America become oil independent? Some studies suggest that a good portion of the refined tar sands oil will be sold outside the US. WTF?

Obviously, I'm not against pipelines, I just don't see how this one benefits America.

seeahill wrote:I live in a town just west of the big Bakken oil fields. We now have 23 trains a day running through town instead of the usual 8 or so of the previous decade. Most of those trains carry oil tankers. The tracks are only a few blocks from my home. The potential for disaster grows. So I was originally in favor of the pipeline. I wanted to stop the trains.

BUT, it turns out that the xl pipeline carries tar sands, a gritty product that is not oil. Therefore, we in Montana couldn't get a up ramp for our Bakken crude. The pipe carries tar sands slurry, not crude. So If the pipeline was built, we'd still have the same number of trains through town.

So who does the pipeline help? Well, there're those 40,000 jobs construction jobs. Put a two year cap on them. After that, it would employ about 35 people. It does help big Canadian companies who want to expand their tar sands operations. But will it help America become oil independent? Some studies suggest that a good portion of the refined tar sands oil will be sold outside the US. WTF?

Obviously, I'm not against pipelines, I just don't see how this one benefits America.

First, you need two pipelines, obviously. Second, by having the pipeline run through America, we control it. Third, the tar sands needs to be turned into a final product, at a cost. We get to do that too. Refineries are steady revenue. Fourth, build a tar sand refining plant in Montana.

Pipeline here - pipeline there - peas porridge in the pot - pipelines every damn where. No Thanks.

How does it benefit US citizens...there is already significant evidence that the workers hired for this project are foreign workers already.

This product is being pushed by fat cats who want to keep fat catting. It's odd how this falls so clearly on party lines..Repubs support, Democs do not. Fuck the party leadership who continually throw the citizens of the US under the bus.

climber511 wrote:Pipeline here - pipeline there - peas porridge in the pot - pipelines every damn where. No Thanks.

Damn the energy distribution networks., he says as he types on a computer connected to both the energy distribution grid and the information distribution grid.

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:How does it benefit US citizens...

jobs, control, income from being in the value chain.

control of what? like the fucking US is going say "Oh, sorry Canuckistan, we are taking your OILZ SLURRYZ!"

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:control of what? like the fucking US is going say "Oh, sorry Canuckistan, we are taking your OILZ SLURRYZ!"

If the pipeline goes through the U.S., we control it, yes.

And we get a cut of every dollar made from that stuff as it flows through and gets refined by us.

"we". did you really say that? You and I will never see a dime of that, it will disappear into the rabbit hole