Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

[Turdacious]

I didn't watch much, but the bits and pieces I did see, to my uneducated eye it seemed like the prosecution did a good job and his defense didn't. It may be no one wanted to go on the stand and defend him or his actions and they had to scrape the bottom of the barrel for expert testimony.

I mean, you couldn't even get him cleared of 2nd degree murder? That's crazy.

Don't get me wrong. I think the asshole is guilty in the moral court. But the laws are very favorable to cops on duty. Or at least they were.

I read some analysis which suggested that the court stretched the definition of second and third-degree murder.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/202 ... 308414002/
If true, that will not bode well in the future for poor defendants facing ambitious prosecutors.

[newguy]

I didn't watch much, but the bits and pieces I did see, to my uneducated eye it seemed like the prosecution did a good job and his defense didn't. It may be no one wanted to go on the stand and defend him or his actions and they had to scrape the bottom of the barrel for expert testimony.

I mean, you couldn't even get him cleared of 2nd degree murder? That's crazy.

Don't get me wrong. I think the asshole is guilty in the moral court. But the laws are very favorable to cops on duty. Or at least they were.

I read some analysis which suggested that the court stretched the definition of second and third-degree murder.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/202 ... 308414002/
If true, that will not bode well in the future for poor defendants facing ambitious prosecutors.

Life has never been good for poor people facing ambitious prosecutors.

[johno]

Just curious....assuming there is not a walk out basement, how did firefighters on your job get water on a basement fire, and how many basement fires did you successfully extinguish using this method?

Just saw this.^

In my locale there was usually some opening to the basement for an initial hit with water. I don't recall fighting any fire in a completely enclosed basement...lucky..
Also, depending on construction, it's possible to cut an access hole from first floor to the basement and to apply water to knock down the fire before attacking down the stairs.
This is a sore subject for me since it was one of the times when I nearly died doing stupid stuff. We attacked down stairs on a walkout basement (those who knew, didn't share that info), then dicked around on floor one way too long while a different crew ran a vent fan into the basement entrance. For perspective, this was decades ago.

[johno]

1 - I expected rioting no matter what. I was wrong on that.
2 - At trial, was there any evidence that Chauvin had racist intentions?
3 - Assuming Floyd was asphyxiated, I still think his prone position, drug use, and cop on his back were much greater factors than Chauvin's knee. Based on my ten years of dealing with chokes, both blood & air, neither seems likely caused by Chauvin's knee. Especially when the autopsy showed no structural damage to Floyd's neck.
4 - IF the politicians, politics, or crowd pressure intimidated the jury, that's a very bad thing for America.

[newguy]

For #3 - it seems like they brought out quite a few "cops," supervisors, etc. who essentially said - this is bullshit. He shouldn't have kneeled on him that long and he knew better. And if that is the case, you don't need structural damage. All you need to really show is - yeah. This is a dangerous position to put a person in and that is why we are careful with it and he wasn't.

And if that is the case, maybe it's not #4. Maybe it really is this guy did something out of line and he shouldn't have and the jury was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

I mean, the defense was not able to line up a wall of experts explaining that this was normal policing fully in line with policy and expectations. There could be a reason for that.

I read quite a bit about the Rodney King trial and an excellent book about it. And one thing a lot of people at the time missed was that the FULL video made it a lot more clear what happened. And the defense was really able to hone in on a lot of expert testimony, etc. that clearly explained why the cops chose the response they did, how it was in line with their training, they psychology of the situation, etc.

It seems like this is a case (Chauvin) where the full video is even worse. The expert testimony lines up against the officer. Etc.

[syaigh]

For #3 - it seems like they brought out quite a few "cops," supervisors, etc. who essentially said - this is bullshit. He shouldn't have kneeled on him that long and he knew better. And if that is the case, you don't need structural damage. All you need to really show is - yeah. This is a dangerous position to put a person in and that is why we are careful with it and he wasn't.

And if that is the case, maybe it's not #4. Maybe it really is this guy did something out of line and he shouldn't have and the jury was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

I mean, the defense was not able to line up a wall of experts explaining that this was normal policing fully in line with policy and expectations. There could be a reason for that.

I read quite a bit about the Rodney King trial and an excellent book about it. And one thing a lot of people at the time missed was that the FULL video made it a lot more clear what happened. And the defense was really able to hone in on a lot of expert testimony, etc. that clearly explained why the cops chose the response they did, how it was in line with their training, they psychology of the situation, etc.

It seems like this is a case (Chauvin) where the full video is even worse. The expert testimony lines up against the officer. Etc.

Yeah, that.

In the trial, it was made abundantly clear that professionally and personally, Chauvin used excessive force in a manner that was not warranted by the situation or his training. Physically, the kneeling caused Floyd to die. Medically, there was nothing in Floyd's system otherwise that contributed to his death. Racism was not a factor and wasn't brought up at all. If the jurors were intmidated at all by the potential outcome, I am sure that was a factor long before the trial began.

HOWEVER, if you watched the trial, you'd have a very hard time coming up with a not guilty verdict. The defense had no defense other than trying to say that maybe the carbon monoxide coming out of a nearby tailpipe killed Floyd and not Chauvin. That seems a bit like grasping at straws.

[johno]

Academic question now, but I'm curious.

FatCat and other submission grappling types: Have you ever seen someone choked out* with a knee on the back of neck or shoulder?


*Blood or air choke

[newguy]

If I am not mistaken, and I could be, the knee on the neck is a factor, but having someone in that prone position is as, if not even more dangerous. I feel that this came up at the trial multiple times. That police officers know having someone restrained and on their stomach is a dangerous position. The knee exacerbates the situation. The trial consensus was he should know better and that he did know better.

Multiple professionals saying you don't keep someone in that position for a long time was pretty compelling.

I've said before, I felt he was guilty in the moral court, but I wasn't really sure in the legal court. As someone just gleaning bits and pieces from the trial, hearing from experts that he was trained differently, he should have known better, etc. was compelling. I'm a lay person. I had no idea that leaving people on their stomach was dangerous. I had no idea cops knew this and were trained on it. Imagine I'm in the jury and hearing this multiple days. Hearing things like that from experts it becomes much more "this asshole knew he was doing something dangerous."

And then when you combine that with his legal team looking like they were sourced out from Trumps "stop the steal team" and guilty on all counts becomes much less surprising.

[johno]

I think we may all be unclear. Syaigh maintains that the knee killed Floyd. And that the fentanyl in his system did not contribute.* You maintain it was the prone position. I didn't listen to enough testimony to have a set opinion, but I thought the prosecution thought the knee was a big deal. But maybe I just had that impression from the news.

Definitely, the knee was what looked so bad. Without it, the cops just left Floyd in the prone with handcuffs on. What reason is there to believe a guy who was shouting "I can't breathe" from the moment the cops tried to put him in the squad car, before he was ever prone on the ground?



* Although fentanyl causes respiratory depression and can lead to coma & death.

[syaigh]

This is a video of the prosecution witness some jurors have said they found most compelling: https://youtu.be/uB6ucFO1e0c

His name is Martin Tobin and I believe he was also called as a rebuttal witness to one of the defense witnesses.

[johno]

Of course the prosecution would use witnesses that support its case.

Here's one for the defense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqnwHAZUclg

[syaigh]

Did you watch it? Its what the jury found compelling.

I'm not trying to have a one-up competition here. There are facts and there is bullshit. It doesn't seem you've watched any credible news or read any credible information. This isn't about politics. The simple fact is that George Floyd was murdered. No justification for it. Good cops hate bad cops. There is no reason to assume Derek Chauvin was a good man with good intentions in this situation.

[newguy]

Mr Johno.

I don't know what to tell you my man. I didn't sit through the full trial. But 12 people did and 12 of them, after sitting through hours of testimony decided that DC was guilty on all counts beyond any reasonable doubt.

Not sure why you are so vested in trying to prove his innocence.

If Derek Chauvin was acting within his training and within the expected norms for his profession, it should have been easy to show.

Defense didn't show it.

12 people concluded the prosecution showed, beyond a reasonable doubt, that DC was a complete asshole that day who ignored his training and because of it he killed a man.

I think at this point it is fair for us to reasonably say Derek Chauvin was an asshole, that is NOT how cops are supposed to handle shit in Minnesota, and that is that.

[Turdacious]

Did you watch it? Its what the jury found compelling.

I'm not trying to have a one-up competition here. There are facts and there is bullshit. It doesn't seem you've watched any credible news or read any credible information. This isn't about politics. The simple fact is that George Floyd was murdered. No justification for it. Good cops hate bad cops. There is no reason to assume Derek Chauvin was a good man with good intentions in this situation.

So what should he have been convicted of?
Murder one would require premeditation (I saw no evidence of that)
Murder two requires reckless disregard for human life (bit more of a grey area because he was using a legal tactic he was trained to use)
Manslaughter/murder three is an unplanned, unintentional killing (maybe still a grey area but I can see it)

Complicating factors: Floyd was physically superior to Chauvin (former athlete, much bigger, on drugs that can reasonably cause substance induced psychosis and still in reasonably good shape) and no cop I've ever talked to who deals with irrational high people on a regular basis has ever considered them reliable while in an altered state.

[newguy]

Did you watch it? Its what the jury found compelling.

I'm not trying to have a one-up competition here. There are facts and there is bullshit. It doesn't seem you've watched any credible news or read any credible information. This isn't about politics. The simple fact is that George Floyd was murdered. No justification for it. Good cops hate bad cops. There is no reason to assume Derek Chauvin was a good man with good intentions in this situation.

So what should he have been convicted of?
Murder one would require premeditation (I saw no evidence of that)
Murder two requires reckless disregard for human life (bit more of a grey area because he was using a legal tactic he was trained to use)
Manslaughter/murder three is an unplanned, unintentional killing (maybe still a grey area but I can see it)

Complicating factors: Floyd was physically superior to Chauvin (former athlete, much bigger, on drugs that can reasonably cause substance induced psychosis and still in reasonably good shape) and no cop I've ever talked to who deals with irrational high people on a regular basis has ever considered them reliable while in an altered state.

Where are all the cops, supervisors, trainers saying this? Why didn't the defense have witness after expert witness saying "DC handled this the exact way he was supposed to?"

In fact, it was the opposite. The prosecution had police, supervisors, etc. saying this is not how we use this tactic. This is not how we are trained. He knew better.

You all saw the video. I don't what the hard on is for this guy. Everyone, including his own department, says that he shouldn't have had GF prone that long with the knee on his neck. It was not how he was trained and it was not a legal tactic.

I mean, do you all run around with Blue Lives Matter flags on your trucks? Are you loving the cops so much that you give them handjobs on their breaks?

I really don't get the love you are all showing this prick.

And I don't what to hear this whole physically superior horseshit anymore. He was fucking handcuffed. I am so fucking sick of hearing this bullshit about how hard and dangerous it is to restrain people.

I know 65 year old Filipino nurses who deal with this type of thing in hospitals all the time. They don't kill people.

One of my good friends used to work in a foster home. These girls have been through more trauma than any of us imagine and would go from the sweetest things in the world to irate in the blink of an eye. And these were some big girls.

She and her partners would restrain them and somehow manage to not kill any of them.

My dad worked in a prison. They didn't carry guns. Somehow they managed to restrain prisoners ALL the time without killing them.

I will throw myself into this mix. Pre covid I was doing low level security work on the side. Concerts, sporting events, etc. Low level low pay and we were constantly being told what our job and expectations were and to act professionally. You get beer thrown on you? Be professional. Some asshole pushes you? Be professional. Don't worry, the team is coming to restrain, remove, and you get to go home early. You know how many people we killed? NONE.

Enough of this nonsense.

Police are paid BANK. In his divorce his ex walked away with 750,000. They owned two homes. How many of you all are making enough for two homes and 750,000 in the bank?

They make more than enough money to act professionally. Their mantra and mandate should be to get the suspect into the station for booking as safely as possible.

No free passes. No excuses. If you can't do that, don't be a cop. If you you don't do that, you get prosecuted.

[Turdacious]

Oh my. I defer to your experience working security for Dalton at the Double Deuce then.

[newguy]

Oh my. I defer to your experience working security for Dalton at the Double Deuce then.

George Floyd would be alive right now if Dalton was handling that shit.

"What if somebody calls my mama a whore?"
"Is she?"

Roadhouse should be a mandatory training film for every police force in the world.

[johno]

Not sure why you are so vested in trying to prove his innocence.

I'm not at all vested in proving his innocence; But I do think there is heavy competition as to the cause of Floyd's death. From what I've seen in real life and from ten years on the jiu jitsu mats*, I'm skeptical about the knee on the neck/shoulder being sufficient to cause death, minus the fentanyl, prone handcuffed posture, other cop riding Floyd's back, and the unhealthy ticker.

Aside from the unwisdom of trying the case in Minneapolis and the unhelpful comments by Waters & Biden, I'm OK with the verdict.




*Anyone here try having a buddy put a knee on your neck for a while? I may do that and report.

[baffled]

FWIW a big fat white guy died, I think, on Dallas grin bring left in a prone position for an extended period of time. I can't remember if or how intoxicated he was.

[Sangoma]

Not sure why you are so vested in trying to prove his innocence.

I'm not at all vested in proving his innocence; But I do think there is heavy competition as to the cause of Floyd's death. From what I've seen in real life and from ten years on the jiu jitsu mats*, I'm skeptical about the knee on the neck/shoulder being sufficient to cause death, minus the fentanyl, prone handcuffed posture, other cop riding Floyd's back, and the unhealthy ticker.

I agree with this. Everyone is fixated on the knee on the neck, and I am not saying this action by the cop should be taken too lightly. But most likely several factors contributed to Floyd’s death. Obviously, knee on the neck looks more impressive than a person sitting on the torso.

The real problem was also the duration of the event. Anyone who did a bit of BJJ has experienced the time factor. Sometimes it takes good half a minute for a choke to take effect. The same in this incident: a minute or two in a compromised position is OK, but then the person deteriorates.

Finally, few understand that deterioration virtually never occurs in a linear way. It is always exponential: a slow decline is followed by a quick collapse. So Floyd seemed sort of OK, talking, moaning and then, at some point suddenly going limp.

[Fat Cat]

Did you watch it? Its what the jury found compelling.

I'm not trying to have a one-up competition here. There are facts and there is bullshit. It doesn't seem you've watched any credible news or read any credible information. This isn't about politics. The simple fact is that George Floyd was murdered. No justification for it. Good cops hate bad cops. There is no reason to assume Derek Chauvin was a good man with good intentions in this situation.

So what should he have been convicted of?
Murder one would require premeditation (I saw no evidence of that)
Murder two requires reckless disregard for human life (bit more of a grey area because he was using a legal tactic he was trained to use)
Manslaughter/murder three is an unplanned, unintentional killing (maybe still a grey area but I can see it)

Complicating factors: Floyd was physically superior to Chauvin (former athlete, much bigger, on drugs that can reasonably cause substance induced psychosis and still in reasonably good shape) and no cop I've ever talked to who deals with irrational high people on a regular basis has ever considered them reliable while in an altered state.

Where are all the cops, supervisors, trainers saying this? Why didn't the defense have witness after expert witness saying "DC handled this the exact way he was supposed to?"

In fact, it was the opposite. The prosecution had police, supervisors, etc. saying this is not how we use this tactic. This is not how we are trained. He knew better.

You all saw the video. I don't what the hard on is for this guy. Everyone, including his own department, says that he shouldn't have had GF prone that long with the knee on his neck. It was not how he was trained and it was not a legal tactic.

I mean, do you all run around with Blue Lives Matter flags on your trucks? Are you loving the cops so much that you give them handjobs on their breaks?

I really don't get the love you are all showing this prick.

And I don't what to hear this whole physically superior horseshit anymore. He was fucking handcuffed. I am so fucking sick of hearing this bullshit about how hard and dangerous it is to restrain people.

I know 65 year old Filipino nurses who deal with this type of thing in hospitals all the time. They don't kill people.

One of my good friends used to work in a foster home. These girls have been through more trauma than any of us imagine and would go from the sweetest things in the world to irate in the blink of an eye. And these were some big girls.

She and her partners would restrain them and somehow manage to not kill any of them.

My dad worked in a prison. They didn't carry guns. Somehow they managed to restrain prisoners ALL the time without killing them.

I will throw myself into this mix. Pre covid I was doing low level security work on the side. Concerts, sporting events, etc. Low level low pay and we were constantly being told what our job and expectations were and to act professionally. You get beer thrown on you? Be professional. Some asshole pushes you? Be professional. Don't worry, the team is coming to restrain, remove, and you get to go home early. You know how many people we killed? NONE.

Enough of this nonsense.

Police are paid BANK. In his divorce his ex walked away with 750,000. They owned two homes. How many of you all are making enough for two homes and 750,000 in the bank?

They make more than enough money to act professionally. Their mantra and mandate should be to get the suspect into the station for booking as safely as possible.

No free passes. No excuses. If you can't do that, don't be a cop. If you you don't do that, you get prosecuted.

This post is literally the print version of erectile dysfunction.

[Fat Cat]

Academic question now, but I'm curious.

FatCat and other submission grappling types: Have you ever seen someone choked out* with a knee on the back of neck or shoulder?

I have pinned people with knee on belly, knee on back, knee on neck, knee on face, and knee on heart with zero fatalities or, sadly, even loss of consciousness.

[Fat Cat]

Physically, the kneeling caused Floyd to die. Medically, there was nothing in Floyd's system otherwise that contributed to his death.

You absolutely did NOT type that with a straight face.

[newguy]

Did you watch it? Its what the jury found compelling.

I'm not trying to have a one-up competition here. There are facts and there is bullshit. It doesn't seem you've watched any credible news or read any credible information. This isn't about politics. The simple fact is that George Floyd was murdered. No justification for it. Good cops hate bad cops. There is no reason to assume Derek Chauvin was a good man with good intentions in this situation.

So what should he have been convicted of?
Murder one would require premeditation (I saw no evidence of that)
Murder two requires reckless disregard for human life (bit more of a grey area because he was using a legal tactic he was trained to use)
Manslaughter/murder three is an unplanned, unintentional killing (maybe still a grey area but I can see it)

Complicating factors: Floyd was physically superior to Chauvin (former athlete, much bigger, on drugs that can reasonably cause substance induced psychosis and still in reasonably good shape) and no cop I've ever talked to who deals with irrational high people on a regular basis has ever considered them reliable while in an altered state.

Where are all the cops, supervisors, trainers saying this? Why didn't the defense have witness after expert witness saying "DC handled this the exact way he was supposed to?"

In fact, it was the opposite. The prosecution had police, supervisors, etc. saying this is not how we use this tactic. This is not how we are trained. He knew better.

You all saw the video. I don't what the hard on is for this guy. Everyone, including his own department, says that he shouldn't have had GF prone that long with the knee on his neck. It was not how he was trained and it was not a legal tactic.

I mean, do you all run around with Blue Lives Matter flags on your trucks? Are you loving the cops so much that you give them handjobs on their breaks?

I really don't get the love you are all showing this prick.

And I don't what to hear this whole physically superior horseshit anymore. He was fucking handcuffed. I am so fucking sick of hearing this bullshit about how hard and dangerous it is to restrain people.

I know 65 year old Filipino nurses who deal with this type of thing in hospitals all the time. They don't kill people.

One of my good friends used to work in a foster home. These girls have been through more trauma than any of us imagine and would go from the sweetest things in the world to irate in the blink of an eye. And these were some big girls.

She and her partners would restrain them and somehow manage to not kill any of them.

My dad worked in a prison. They didn't carry guns. Somehow they managed to restrain prisoners ALL the time without killing them.

I will throw myself into this mix. Pre covid I was doing low level security work on the side. Concerts, sporting events, etc. Low level low pay and we were constantly being told what our job and expectations were and to act professionally. You get beer thrown on you? Be professional. Some asshole pushes you? Be professional. Don't worry, the team is coming to restrain, remove, and you get to go home early. You know how many people we killed? NONE.

Enough of this nonsense.

Police are paid BANK. In his divorce his ex walked away with 750,000. They owned two homes. How many of you all are making enough for two homes and 750,000 in the bank?

They make more than enough money to act professionally. Their mantra and mandate should be to get the suspect into the station for booking as safely as possible.

No free passes. No excuses. If you can't do that, don't be a cop. If you you don't do that, you get prosecuted.

This post is literally the print version of erectile dysfunction.

Welcome back!

[Fat Cat]

Thank you!