No fuckin' thank you to sending US troops to Ukraine

[Gene]

The Dollar depends upon the Faith and Credit of the US government. Every time we sanction someone we indirectly weaken that faith and credit. They cannot use our Dollars, so they use something else. Sanctions make the Dollar worth less and less over time.

The people who want to spank Putin need to justify their actions to those who will be hurt - ordinary working Americans.

If there was a Mutual Defense Treaty with Ukraine, ratified by the US Senate, that's fine. Produce it here. I'll go look if you post it.


Ain't the Budapest Memorandum.... Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama, Trump or Biden would have had it ratified by the Senate as a formal treaty. Didn't happen.

" In the early 1990s, neither the George H. W. Bush administration nor the Clinton administration was prepared to extend a military commitment to Ukraine— and both felt that, even if they wanted to, the Senate would not produce the needed two-thirds vote for consent to ratification of such a treaty.
The Budapest Memorandum thus was negotiated as a political agreement. "

https://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/04/opin ... emorandum/

[Gene]

The only reason he is invading another autonomous democratic country is because he wants to and thinks he can. Lots of Ukrainians will die, but so will lots of Russians.

Another? Russia has invaded how many countries since 2000?

Georgia was run by an American trained stooge named Shaakashvili. He kicked off the invasion of Abkhasia and S. Ossetia. He later went to Ukraine to be "governor" of Odessa. Today he's in Georgia facing the music for corruption.

Ukraine? The hybrid war in the east? A Ukrainian oligarch named Igor Kolomoiski raised the Azov Battalion. Right Sector is run by a Ukrainian politician. Both use Nazi symbols. Both had aid blocked in 2018 because of white supremacism. The locals in east Ukraine claim that people were beaten or "disappeared" for agitating against being forced to speak Ukrainian.

If a US politician tried to make English the national language and then sent people to "punish" Spanish speakers, Nafod, you'd be among the first here to complain. Team Obama/Biden let this kind of thing happen, and did nothing about it.

I bet if Dick Cheney's daughter were hired by a Ukrainian oligarch you'd be the first to bitch. Dope fiend Hunter Biden? That's OK. right? Former Polish President even said so.

https://apnews.com/article/aleksander-k ... 31643a84e3

I think we Americans need to see how 'autonomous' Ukraine really was for the least eight years or so. Something is rotten in Kiev, Nafod, and it ain't the leftover chicken.

Wonder if Ukrainians will be able to bring the fight to Moscow in some way.

You mean like the Chechens did? Blow up a few apartment buildings? Attack a Russian musical show like Nord Ost or attack a school like in Beslan?

Ukraine is too vulnerable to retaliation. Russia could send in agents who speak flawless Ukrainian, who have friends there, who could do anything. Bombs, poison, diseases.

When Russia wanted to get rid of Saudi terrorist Ibn Al-Khattab in Chechnya they soaked a letter to him in Sarin. Hired/coerced someone to deliver the letter. Al-Khattab dropped dead while reading the note.

This isn't people like you, Nafod. More like Mossad. They don't fuck around. Neither side does.

[Wild Bill]

Biden almost certainly blew a few spy networks with his "opensource" plan. That's in addition to the networks he lost in MENA via af-stan. And the ones Hillary blew for Russiagate. Putin is running the table right now.

No, Putin was always going to Putin, the fact that we’ve been two steps ahead of his Operation Casus Belli makes it just that more transparent that he is Making It Up. And that his organization leaks like a sieve.

The invasion has begun, the die has been cast. The only reason he is invading another autonomous democratic country is because he wants to and thinks he can. Lots of Ukrainians will die, but so will lots of Russians.

Wonder if Ukrainians will be able to bring the fight to Moscow in some way.

Your wet dreams again.
No, they willnot bring it to Moscow.
You will need to do it yourself.

[Wild Bill]

If Mexico says Texas is an independent country and drives tanks and troops into it, that's invasion of the USA.

An interesting example.
And what would you call it if Russia would take Mexico into some openly anti-American union, start aggressive anti-American propaganda there, at the same time pumping it with weapons?

[Wild Bill]

Democratic country :)

[Wild Bill]

autonomous democratic country

BTW :)
Why are you highlighting the words "democratic" country like that?
I will not even talk about the fact that opposition TV channels are being closed there and opposition journalists are imprisoned.

In your opinion, invading a democratic country is much worse than an undemocratic one?
That is, when the United States invades, say, Syria, is it normal because Syria is not democratic in your opinion?

[Gene]

"Never underestimate Joe's capacity to fuck shit up" - B.H. Obama

[nafod]

Ukraine is too vulnerable to retaliation. Russia could send in agents who speak flawless Ukrainian, who have friends there, who could do anything. Bombs, poison, diseases.

There are a lot of Ukrainians who speak flawless Russian.

Some talking head general last night theorized Putin will rapidly hold elections in the occupied sections, which will of course vote for independence no matter what. Then he can withdraw from the newly independent puppet states. Seems like a reasonably Putin-ish plan.

[nafod]

In your opinion, invading a democratic country is much worse than an undemocratic one?

Yes

[Ronald RayGun]

This is some major World Star vibes. Let these white trash Eurasians face-fuck each other. This is obviously.

[Wild Bill]

In your opinion, invading a democratic country is much worse than an undemocratic one?

Yes

perfect fascist :)

[Gene]

Ukraine is too vulnerable to retaliation. Russia could send in agents who speak flawless Ukrainian, who have friends there, who could do anything. Bombs, poison, diseases.

There are a lot of Ukrainians who speak flawless Russian.

Some talking head general last night theorized Putin will rapidly hold elections in the occupied sections, which will of course vote for independence no matter what. Then he can withdraw from the newly independent puppet states. Seems like a reasonably Putin-ish plan.

The DPR and LPR declared independence in 2014.

We Americans just can't get over the fact that we do not run the world. We never did run the world. We are going bankrupt trying to run the world.

President George Washington counseled us to avoid entangling alliances and to neither offer nor suffer injury. We need to go back to that good advice. We have thirty trillion (billion for Europeans) reasons why it makes good sense.

We are going bankrupt with these Sisyphean attempts at Empire. Time to start to cut our losses and mind our own business.

[Bennyonesix1]

"Democracy" defined as the pursuit of low wages via immigration, sexual debasement and the worship of black people.

[Bennyonesix1]

In your opinion, invading a democratic country is much worse than an undemocratic one?

Yes

perfect fascist :)

He's not a fascist. He's an apparatchik. Fascism has an IQ threshold he falls well below.

He has the mentality of a 12yr old who just found a tactic in a video game that "works every time". A tactic that everyone else knows about but doesn't use because it causes a race to the bottom. And he just doesn't care because he's a midwit and it "benefits" him.

[Bennyonesix1]

Screenshot_20220222-123702_Brave.jpg (347.12 KiB) Viewed 1050 times

[Fat Cat]

Screenshot_20220222-123702_Brave.jpg

Pretty much this.

[nafod]

What a bunch of appeasers. Embarrassing.

This is the first real land war in Europe with a major power invading, since the end of WWII. Coming up on 80 years, the peace has been kept. Now we have a democratic country that for a lot of really good reasons doesn’t want to align with Russia, but instead wants to align with the prosperous West. The winners. It’s an economic no-brainer. And you’ll happy just watch and do nothing, because once you appease Putin, he’ll stop and never be mean again to anybody.

Big lesson here, get nukes. If you have them, never give them up.

We’ve been here before.

[Fat Cat]

What a bunch of appeasers. Embarrassing.

You haven't shared with us your proposal to put Putin in his place, tough guy. Throw down or grab a seat with us appeasers.

This is the first real land war in Europe with a major power invading, since the end of WWII. Coming up on 80 years, the peace has been kept.

God damn you're so ignorant it makes my teeth hurt. There have been plenty of "land wars" in Europe while you were sucking on the government tit: Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo-Serbia, Chechnya 1 & 2, Georgia-Ossetia, Crimea, etc. Your historical ignorance attaches a certain mongoloid odor of mental incontinence to anything you post about politics, FYI.

Now we have a democratic country that for a lot of really good reasons doesn’t want to align with Russia, but instead wants to align with the prosperous West. The winners. It’s an economic no-brainer. And you’ll happy just watch and do nothing, because once you appease Putin, he’ll stop and never be mean again to anybody..

Nope. You forget that Ukraine HAD a democratically elected government, but Obama decided to overthrow it and install a friendlier regime, which is how we got here. Given recent history, it's impossible to defend Ukraine as any more democratic than Russia, and there's no domestic appetite for intervention. Ukraine has never been an American ally, is not a credible partner, and we are not in a position to defend them from the Russian military at this point.

That said, there are still a lot of options.

I see a wonderful opportunity to turn Ukraine into a bloodbath for the Russians and I would suggest that the US consider this an incredible opportunity to apply the asymmetrical warfare lessons we've learned over the past 20 years there. Putin's domestic position is far more precarious than he or the Russian people are capable of admitting, but of course, they didn't expect the fall of the USSR either and Vlad is just one guy, albeit a capable one. That would both effective and satisfying the short-term. Long-term, I would probably use Ukraine as an opportunity to see past Putin and rehabilitate our relationship with Russia and help us contain China (the real problem for both of us). In fact, I have suspicions about WHY Putin is doing this that relate to them, but I won't pretend to know anything.

[Bennyonesix1]

What a bunch of appeasers. Embarrassing.

This is the first real land war in Europe with a major power invading, since the end of WWII. Coming up on 80 years, the peace has been kept. Now we have a democratic country that for a lot of really good reasons doesn’t want to align with Russia, but instead wants to align with the prosperous West. The winners. It’s an economic no-brainer. And you’ll happy just watch and do nothing, because once you appease Putin, he’ll stop and never be mean again to anybody.

Big lesson here, get nukes. If you have them, never give them up.

We’ve been here before.

I'm not 12yrs old, a mid-wit or your subordinate so your saying words like "democracy" or "appeaser" or "embarrassing" is useless. Despite what you think, these aren't magic spells that lawgic trap people you disagree with into assenting to your position.

I reject "democracy" as a reason for troop deployment. I reject it as a useful word altogether. It has no core meaning any longer. I also reject the received definition you are operating with. In fact, I think your concept is a bad thing.

I reject the label "appeaser" as well. And even if I didn't, I wouldn't care that I was one.

And I don't need to say it but I will, I don't care if you are embarrassed. I enjoy the thought actually.

I reject any ideological grounds for foreign military action. This is irrelevant because you aren't capable of comprehending what an ideology is or why it shouldn't be the basis for foreign military action.

If you had a good reason for troop deployment to UKR you would have stated it. But there isn't one.

This situation exists because the US State Dept, US Intel and the US Military is run by incompetents. And has been for near 30 years. And that incompetence has also unfortunately hollowed out the lower command ranks.

So, even if I thought there was some legitimate intetest in military engagement with RUS, I would be terrified of the outcome despite our tech superiority.

But like I said, there is no articulable basis. There is only oligarchic and political class desire to preserve a money laundering hub and centuries old insane jewish ethnic grievance.

Now, you can just keep fucking talking talking talking or you can offer up some real interest I have in US troop deployment to UKR.

You know what would be cool? If you were to say something like "I hate Trump and his supporters and I hate Putin. And I want them both fucking bashed. Simple really." People would be fine with that. Instead you use these adolescent verbal tactics....

[nafod]

[/quote]

I see a wonderful opportunity to turn Ukraine into a bloodbath for the Russians and I would suggest that the US consider this an incredible opportunity to apply the asymmetrical warfare lessons we've learned over the past 20 years there. Putin's domestic position is far more precarious than he or the Russian people are capable of admitting, but of course, they didn't expect the fall of the USSR either and Vlad is just one guy, albeit a capable one. That would both effective and satisfying the short-term. Long-term, I would probably use Ukraine as an opportunity to see past Putin and rehabilitate our relationship with Russia and help us contain China (the real problem for both of us). In fact, I have suspicions about WHY Putin is doing this that relate to them, but I won't pretend to know anything.

Now you’re talking.

B16, I have never not once offered to send our troops to UKR, so put away your straw man. That doesn’t make what Putin is doing right, or not deserving of humiliation and failure. Invading another sovereign nation because it is weak and you want to is bullshit.

I wonder what life is like on the international space station these days.

[Gene]

What a bunch of appeasers. Embarrassing.

You have to pick your battles, Nafod. We are $30,000,000,000,000 in debt. We're too poor to police the world.

This is the first real land war in Europe with a major power invading, since the end of WWII. Coming up on 80 years, the peace has been kept.

About 140,000 people died in the Yugoslav civil wars, Nafod. This includes the one or two odd thousand who were killed in Serbia by NATO in 1999, four years after the Dayton Accords were signed.

[Gene]

I see a wonderful opportunity to turn Ukraine into a bloodbath for the Russians and I would suggest that the US consider this an incredible opportunity to apply the asymmetrical warfare lessons we've learned over the past 20 years there.

Who do you think trained the people that we fought for the last twenty years, or who taught their teachers? The Soviets. Some are Ukrainian, others are Russian. Lots of old people who can start classes again.

We should be over there taking notes.

I bet that the Russians will roll to the line of control for both republics. No further.


Germany is closing their last nuke plants this year. Nordstream 2 is ready to go. Germany needs the electricity and the heat.


We are too poor to police the world.

[Wild Bill]

What bloodbath? They claim that they have been at war with Russia for eight years without sleep and rest, but at the same time they are begging for the continuation of gas transit.
Diplomatic relations did not stop.
Trade with Russia did not stop. Russia remains the largest trading partner.
Poroshenko had a confectionery plant in Russia, Zelensky still sells his series to Russia.

So if you want a bloodbath for Russia, you will have to do it yourself.

[Bennyonesix1]

I see a wonderful opportunity to turn Ukraine into a bloodbath for the Russians and I would suggest that the US consider this an incredible opportunity to apply the asymmetrical warfare lessons we've learned over the past 20 years there. Putin's domestic position is far more precarious than he or the Russian people are capable of admitting, but of course, they didn't expect the fall of the USSR either and Vlad is just one guy, albeit a capable one. That would both effective and satisfying the short-term. Long-term, I would probably use Ukraine as an opportunity to see past Putin and rehabilitate our relationship with Russia and help us contain China (the real problem for both of us). In fact, I have suspicions about WHY Putin is doing this that relate to them, but I won't pretend to know anything.

Now you’re talking.

B16, I have never not once offered to send our troops to UKR, so put away your straw man. That doesn’t make what Putin is doing right, or not deserving of humiliation and failure. Invading another sovereign nation because it is weak and you want to is bullshit.

I wonder what life is like on the international space station these days.
[/quote]

Jfc dude. What the fuck is it you want to DO? We lost because State and the US Mil and US Intel is incompetent. So incompetent that the greatest tools in history are useless in their hands.

You want me to wring my hands about some bullshit ideology? I'm already going to pay more for gas and everything. And idgaf about UKR. Just like they don't give a fuck about me.

Russia is free of UK/US financial complex or globohomo. Sanctions aren't going to do shit but make EUR and us pay $$$$$. You want old germans to freeze to death? You want regular Americans to pay more for shit? In support of elite incompetence?

You send in troops or you cut your fucking losses.

Idk it's like you are angry ppl aren't retreating with dignity.

Dignity seeming to mean shoot ourselves in the foot on the way out to spite Putin.

The most generous explanation is that the neo-liberal elite are incompetent abd fucked up again. I am not the kind of guy to suffer for other's incompetence silently.

[Wild Bill]

I may disappoint, but Ukraine for oil products is 80 percent dependent on Russia, and the remaining 20 percent are delivered by sea, which Russia will block in case of war.
The same is true with electricity.
There will be no war.