Trump indictment

motherjuggs&speed · Post by **motherjuggs&speed** » Wed Jun 14, 2023 8:02 am

When I read the indictment I thought, yes, he did these things, with criminal intent, and the case seems solid, with little fluff. I also read the 11th Circuit's opinion which dismissed his claims as baseless. I thought, this guy, he's so arrogant, how could he be so careless, he should be held accountable. But I changed my mind about something today.. While there is as yet no evidence (that I'm aware of) that Biden went after Trump, there is still a case to be made for selective enforcement. Other high level officials have also mishandled classified information and faced no charges. I think a dismissal on those grounds would have merit.

But there are other factors to consider, which in my opinion make indicting Trump and trying him a big mistake for the nation.

He is a former president. The government diminished the standing of the U.S today, in a way that can't ever be repaired. It's fundamentally different from charging a senator or governor. The president is the head of government, the head of state, and the symbol of our nation to the rest of the world to a degree not shared by any other ruler except the late Queen. A trial will do more damage to our image. I recognize that Trump himself caused this but it isn't just Trump who will pay the price, it's all of us. A trial will be a spectacle, and for what? He isn't going to do time. and in any event putting him behind bars would be another blow to our standing in the world. I think far more is lost than gained from this.

Do I think a former president should never be charged criminally? No, but I think it sets such a dangerous precedent that it should only be done for the most serious offenses, when it would be worse for America to not bring charges. I don't think the unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents meets that standard.

nafod · Post by **nafod** » Mon Jun 19, 2023 7:37 pm

motherjuggs&speed wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 8:02 am A trial will do more damage to our image.

Letting him get away with it will do more damage than holding him accountable.

When I deployed in 2009, we took SCI information with us on our C17. We had to overnight in Germany for crew rest, and had no nearby storage facility (SCIF) we could use, so we had to have two people stay on board the empty plane, one awake at all times, to guard to material. In December, so not warm. On a military plane parked on a military base. With secrets way less sensitive than information about our nuclear Arsenal or our plans to attack Iran. Information left sitting in boxes in the fucking bathroom. Jesus fucking christ. You just have to assume foreign intelligence has them.

I get that a President or super high up politician will have some classified stuff with them, it is everywhere. We asked for it back nicely for well over a year. He lied about returning it, in response to a formal subpoena. Lied to his own lawyers. Lied about declassifying it. Lied, lied, lied. He is only be charged for not returning it when asked. He is not being charged for anything that he returned. If he has returned the docs, he would not be getting charged.

It is monumental stupidity of a scale never before seen. Nobody wanted this, yet here we are thanks to trump’s infinity lack of integrity.

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Fri Jun 23, 2023 6:34 pm

We have previously criminally prosecuted VPs, senators, governors (a bunch in my state), etc. Other democracies have had some presidents/PMs go down. Also, they tried very hard to not do it. Trump got like 30 chances to do take-backsies and return the stuff.

In general, what does not happen is a cycle of retribution; what happens is the party cleans house and steps up.

I always thought pardoning Nixon was the right move, but seeing some of the stuff recently came out recently about Reagan, Nixon and his cronies getting sentenced may have been better for the GOP.

Gene · Post by **Gene** » Sat Jul 08, 2023 7:18 am

Grandpa's Spells wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 6:34 pm I always thought pardoning Nixon was the right move, but seeing some of the stuff recently came out recently about Reagan, Nixon and his cronies getting sentenced may have been better for the GOP.

Kennedy was using Mobsters to run US foreign policy in Cuba. Robert Kennedy was his point man.

Lyndon Johnson got us into Vietnam as combatants. Eisenhower and Kennedy had enough sense to dodge that bullet.

When people like Trump, Clinton and Biden wouldn't go to Vietnam, we drafted mentally challenged people to fight. They died a lot.

Maybe Nixon saw what John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson got away with, figured he wouldn't get caught either?

"But far less noticed were the files’ fascinating new insights about another much-debated Cold War conspiracy: a top-secret killing plan centered on the CIA’s recruitment of gangsters Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli to murder Cuba’s young communist leader, Fidel Castro."

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... ot-216977/

"Questions about the Gulf of Tonkin incidents have persisted for more than 40 years. But once-classified documents and tapes released in the past several years, combined with previously uncovered facts, make clear that high government officials distorted facts and deceived the American public about events that led to full U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War."

https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-hi ... out-tonkin

"Project 100,000 recruits were killed in disproportionate numbers and fared worse after their military service than their civilian peers, making the program one of the biggest—and possibly cruelest—mistakes of the Vietnam War. "

https://bigthink.com/the-present/story- ... as-morons/

Gene · Post by **Gene** » Sat Jul 08, 2023 7:29 am

Drama Reduction

Gene · Post by **Gene** » Sat Jul 08, 2023 7:52 am

motherjuggs&speed wrote: ↑Wed Jun 14, 2023 8:02 am But there are other factors to consider, which in my opinion make indicting Trump and trying him a big mistake for the nation.

Hillary played with a private server. Her buddy Huma Abedin took a camera into a secure area. They weren't indicted.

Clinton staffer Sandy Berger stuffed classified documents from the National Archives into his pants in order to destroy them. Berger was caught, fined, and disbarred. Fawn Hall did the same thing with White House documents but she turned on North, got a pass.

Cluster Fuck Joe had documents in his house after he left office. So did Pence. Neither got indicted.

Today it's Trump. Tomorrow it's a Bernie Sanders, a Ron Wyden, or a Rand Paul. The System protects its own, outliers and weak people get got.

People who are unhappy about how things are going should consider that new faces won't run if they get selectively prosecuted for stuff that "establishment" candidates get a pass on.

This isn't 'swamp' talk, it's focusing on the even application of justice.

Bennyonesix1 · Post by **Bennyonesix1** » Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:57 pm

MJ&S. I know something of the law and judging. This is my considered opinion.

This indictment is complete and utter horse-shit and even more does not actually state a criminal violation. It is without basis.

That's a technical legal analysis which is irrelevant.

DJT will go to trial and the jury will be extorted into convicting him absent drastic and unforseen societal upheaval.

Your gut reaction to the indictment is 180deg off base.

This is the same level of BS as the NYC DA who claimed he did not have to list the actual charges in the other indictment.

This is just a Lawfare re-run of the Eugene Debs situation.

If you want to figure out what is going on in re this whole thing just research Eugene Debs.

Debs' cases are taught to every Law Student in Con Law as massive and obvious abuse by the State. Lawfare types are going to do it again because they are criminals and criminals like doing crime.