Jesse Ventura's reputation

Sua Sponte · Post by **Sua Sponte** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:35 am

Kazuya Mishima wrote:Where are you getting the 4,000 fatalities from Katrina?

Did a google search. Came up from ~1800 to ~4000. I picked the bigger number because it supports my arguments better.

Kazuya Mishima · Post by **Kazuya Mishima** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:36 am

That's about what I figured...don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Sua Sponte · Post by **Sua Sponte** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:37 am

Kazuya Mishima wrote:That's about what I figured...don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Story sticks at any number you choose from 2000 to 4000.

milosz · Post by **milosz** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:11 am

Sua Sponte wrote:
Kazuya Mishima wrote:Yes, it's true...the elite of the elite when it comes to US military special forces were deployed to Katrina via executive order so that they could sit on top of the Super Dome and shoot niggers stealing bottled water, canned food, and beer. So plausible.
Who said anything about employing the elite (SEALs aren't the elite of the elite, sorry to bust your crush). I said contractors. Try to follow along.

You said that it was believable that Kyle could have been a New Orleans sniper - well, he was an active-duty SEAL at the time, not a contractor.

milosz · Post by **milosz** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:19 am

Sua Sponte wrote:And, yeah, you hit it on the head. I am defending Kyle. Not because I know him or his family or his buddies. He did yeoman's work in Iraq and paid the emotional price. He is part of my extended brotherhood, even in the Navy, even as a SEAL and I have no love affair. And no I don't like the fuckity fucking fuck's who all of sudden have lots to say about the guy after he's dead and gone, can't defend himself or his integrity. His wife and family live with that and this cock n' bullshit lawsuit from a guy who oughta know better.

What Kyle did in Iraq has not a damn thing to do with Kyle's truthfulness on other matters - and perhaps on some of the tales from Iraq.

The New Yorker has the most stringent fact-checking in the American media. More importantly, the two stories where Kyle was obviously making things up are on the record elsewhere - I believe he talks about the carjacking in his book (which is thoroughly mediocre, fwiw). Now, you want to say he could have taken a leave from being a SEAL and took part in a sniper conspiracy on the roof of the Superdome... okay. What about the carjacking? You think that a SEAL sniper dropped a carjacker or two, and neither the Sheriffs of the possible counties nor any local media heard about it?

Kyle was, for whatever reason, prone to fabrication - at least after his service ended. That probably includes the Ventura situation. Ventura crows about his SEAL credentials (though they're questionable) at any oppotunity - why the fuck would he, at a Navy bar, crow about dead ones?

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:28 am

Sua Sponte wrote:
Kazuya Mishima wrote:Where are you getting the 4,000 fatalities from Katrina?
Did a google search. Came up from ~1800 to ~4000. I picked the bigger number because it supports my arguments better.

The confirmed death toll (total of direct and indirect deaths) is 1,836, mainly from Louisiana (1,577) and Mississippi (238).[36][39] However, 135 people remain categorized as missing in Louisiana,[36] and many of the deaths are indirect, but it is almost impossible to determine the exact cause of some of the fatalities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Katrina

Holland Oates · Post by **Holland Oates** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:32 am

Don't let facts get in the way of hero worship.

Sua Sponte · Post by **Sua Sponte** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:41 am

milosz wrote: You said that it was believable that Kyle could have been a New Orleans sniper - well, he was an active-duty SEAL at the time, not a contractor.

No I didn't. Here's what I wrote.

Sua Sponte wrote:Martial law was declared after Katrina. Plenty of evidence the police shot looters. 'Contractors' were hired. Not too unbelievable.

Perhaps I should have expatiated on why I made the apparent non-sequitor reference to contractors and what the expression "not too unbelievable" means.

As was provided the previous link, the claim apparently was active duty military took leave to serve as contractors. As a matter of fact that article doesn't say Kyle made the claim he did the shooting just that a group of guys he knows did. So where were those best in the business fact checkers at the New Yorker wondering why what was in their article was so different than what was on the web?

Sua Sponte · Post by **Sua Sponte** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:48 am

Ed Zachary wrote:Don't let facts get in the way of hero worship.

Oh, but I don't. Whether 1800 or 4000 the salient part of FC's quote is "but it is almost impossible to determine the exact cause of some of the fatalities." The original point made by KM that I addressed was you couldn't hide such deaths by rifle fire. Apparently you could. This report identifies less than a thousand deaths that were actually studied for cause. http://new.dhh.louisiana.gov/assets/doc ... 082008.pdf

That and I've never made any secret that I have no love affair with SEALs.

tough old man · Post by **tough old man** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:52 am

One of My best friends, Doc Tim, SF Medic, was carjacked in Logan Heights one morning. He killed both of them and got a big thank you from a SDPD very high up. Still made it to surf at 7am.

milosz · Post by **milosz** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:03 am

Sua Sponte wrote:As was provided the previous link, the claim apparently was active duty military took leave to serve as contractors. As a matter of fact that article doesn't say Kyle made the claim he did the shooting just that a group of guys he knows did. So where were those best in the business fact checkers at the New Yorker wondering why what was in their article was so different than what was on the web?

No, that wasn't the claim. The claim was that Chris Kyle, active duty Navy SEAL, went to Louisiana and shot people from the roof of the Superdome.

The New Yorker doesn't source the Louisiana tale from the SOFREP story, they go direct to people who interacted with Kyle:

The session went well. Kilbane told me that he was struck by Kyle’s “aura,” noting that whenever “he walked in the room the dynamic would change, the energy in the room would shift.” Afterward, a larger group went out for dinner, closed the hotel bar, and hung out in Kyle’s suite, drinking until late. The seals began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, he said, the law-and-order situation was dire. He and another sniper travelled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceeded to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos. Three people shared with me varied recollections of that evening: the first said that Kyle claimed to have shot thirty men on his own; according to the second, the story was that Kyle and the other sniper had shot thirty men between them; the third said that she couldn’t recall specific details.

Had Kyle gone to New Orleans with a gun? Rumors of snipers—both police officers and criminal gunmen—circulated in the weeks after the storm. Since then, they have been largely discredited. A spokesman for U.S. Special Operations Command, or socom, told me, “To the best of anyone’s knowledge at socom, there were no West Coast seals deployed to Katrina.” When I related this account to one of Kyle’s officers, he replied, sardonically, “I never heard that story.” The seal with extensive experience in special-mission units wondered how dozens of people could be shot by high-velocity rifles and just disappear; Kyle’s version of events, he said, “defies the imagination.” (In April, Webb published an article on sofrep about the incident, but took it down after concluding that Kyle’s account was dubious.)

(for some reason the web formatting converted SEALs to lower-case, that's not the case in the magazine)

People who tell lies make up different versions for the different people - that's the difficulty with lying, you've got to keep your story straight.

You should probably have read the (sympathetic) New Yorker piece before blathering on about their pack of filthy lies.

Sua Sponte · Post by **Sua Sponte** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:07 am

milosz wrote:What Kyle did in Iraq has not a damn thing to do with Kyle's truthfulness on other matters - and perhaps on some of the tales from Iraq.

Good that you made that point clear given that I made no such assertion. Distilled to one line, it meant "he deserves the benefit of the doubt." Kind of like you give to journalists of certain publications. And the article the NY'er ran after the first raid

milosz wrote: The New Yorker has the most stringent fact-checking in the American media.

How does one go about supporting such a statement I wonder. Not that it sets the bar particularly high. Even when we fail to consider the utter drivel that the NY'er article describing the first raid into Afghanistan after 9/11 was.

milosz wrote: More importantly, the two stories where Kyle was obviously making things up are on the record elsewhere - I believe he talks about the carjacking in his book (which is thoroughly mediocre, fwiw). Now, you want to say he could have taken a leave from being a SEAL and took part in a sniper conspiracy on the roof of the Superdome... okay. What about the carjacking?

I stated way back where that I had no idea on the car jacking. It's probably best that you read what I actually wrote. Greases the wheels of the conversation.

I don't read SEAL books. I can never get past the first 90% of the book where they tell me over and over how hard their training is and how nobody else in the world compares and how all the other units are pussies and how they don't need tactics cause BUD/S makes you bullet proof motherfucker...

milosz wrote:You think that a SEAL sniper dropped a carjacker or two, and neither the Sheriffs of the possible counties nor any local media heard about it?

You mean the same law enforcement types BD has an entire thread about? No idea. And, again, no idea.

milosz wrote:Kyle was, for whatever reason, prone to fabrication - at least after his service ended. That probably includes the Ventura situation. Ventura crows about his SEAL credentials (though they're questionable) at any oppotunity - why the fuck would he, at a Navy bar, crow about dead ones?

Could be. But where does one set the bar on entirely dismissing everything a person says because they've been caught fabricating before? Who lives up to that standard?

As to Ventura, he's a politician. The rest is self-explanatory.

milosz · Post by **milosz** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:09 am

re: the carjacking

In January, 2010, Kyle later told friends, he was once again put to the test: two men tried to carjack his truck. He was parked at a gas station, southwest of Dallas. “He told the robbers that he just needed to reach back into the truck to get the keys,” Michael J. Mooney wrote in a recent article about Kyle, in D Magazine. Mooney, who had worked on the piece with Kyle’s coöperation, wrote that Kyle “turned around and reached under his winter coat instead, into his waistband. With his right hand, he grabbed his Colt 1911”—a sidearm that is popular with military personnel. “He fired two shots under his left armpit, hitting the first man twice in the chest. Then he turned slightly and fired two more times, hitting the second man twice in the chest. Both men fell dead.”

Police officers arrived at the scene. When they ran Kyle’s license, Mooney wrote, something unusual occurred: “Instead of his name, address, and date of birth, what came up was a phone number at the Department of Defense. At the other end of the line was someone who explained that the police were in the presence of one of the most skilled fighters in U.S. military history.” According to Kyle, security cameras documented the episode.

Yeah, man, it's just like that TV show The Unit - a special help desk for cops to call to find out that they've pulled over a ninja.

The professional take on that story:

There is cause to be skeptical. The counties of Erath, Somervell, and Johnson cover the stretch of highway where the incident supposedly happened. Tommy Bryant, the sheriff of Erath County, told me that he could “guar-an-damn-tee it didn’t happen here.” Greg Doyle, the sheriff of Somervell County, said that he had “never heard” the story, which he found “kinda shocking,” and added, “It did not occur here.” Bob Alford, the sheriff of Johnson County, told a local reporter, “If something like that happened here I would have heard of it, and I’m sure you all at the newspaper would have heard of it.” These denials do not automatically disprove the story, of course. And it’s true that certain operatives, from certain government offices and agencies, drive government-registered vehicles whose license plates prompt civilian authorities to contact a call center in the event of an accident or a traffic stop. But a seal with extensive experience in special-mission units told me that the notion of such a provision being in place for a former seal driving a private vehicle was “bullshit.”

milosz · Post by **milosz** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:12 am

Sua Sponte wrote:As to Ventura, he's a politician. The rest is self-explanatory.

This is a delightful non sequitur, much like everything else you've said.

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:13 am

Sua Sponte wrote:
milosz wrote:You think that a SEAL sniper dropped a carjacker or two, and neither the Sheriffs of the possible counties nor any local media heard about it?
You mean the same law enforcement types BD has an entire thread about? No idea. And, again, no idea.

Pigs do not like competition. We know this.

It might be really simple...Both Ventura and Kyle acted without class. Kyle is an obvious liar. Ventura is a politician, so the liar part is implied. Both of them served their country honorably and then spent the rest of their lives (albeit Kyle's unfairly short) milking the living shit out of it.

Sua Sponte · Post by **Sua Sponte** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:18 am

milosz wrote:No, that wasn't the claim. The claim was that Chris Kyle, active duty Navy SEAL, went to Louisiana and shot people from the roof of the Superdome.

That's the claim you made about the New Yorker article which differs from the one linked. I was referring to the SOFREP article which I assume was faithfully recreated in the link.

milosz wrote:The New Yorker doesn't source the Louisiana tale from the SOFREP story, they go direct to people who interacted with Kyle:....

The guy who wrote the SOFREP article says he was directly told that by Kyle. Why do you believe one over the other.

milosz wrote:The session went well. Kilbane told me that he was struck by Kyle’s “aura,” noting that whenever “he walked in the room the dynamic would change, the energy in the room would shift.” Afterward, a larger group went out for dinner, closed the hotel bar, and hung out in Kyle’s suite, drinking until late. The seals began telling stories, and Kyle offered a shocking one. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, he said, the law-and-order situation was dire. He and another sniper travelled to New Orleans, set up on top of the Superdome, and proceeded to shoot dozens of armed residents who were contributing to the chaos. Three people shared with me varied recollections of that evening: the first said that Kyle claimed to have shot thirty men on his own; according to the second, the story was that Kyle and the other sniper had shot thirty men between them; the third said that she couldn’t recall specific details.

My goodness, so many versions. Even one who couldn't recall. No wonder you're so certain.

milosz wrote:People who tell lies make up different versions for the different people - that's the difficulty with lying, you've got to keep your story straight.

So then, again, why is the correspondent's story so compelling? His is the version this guy Kilbane told him after talking to the others. Maybe Kilbane is suspect?

milosz wrote:You should probably have read the (sympathetic) New Yorker piece before blathering on about their pack of filthy lies.

I read it. Like I said, I don't take the NY'er any more seriously than any other entertainment source. Sometimes thought provoking, rarely convincing.

Sua Sponte · Post by **Sua Sponte** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:20 am

milosz wrote:Yeah, man, it's just like that TV show The Unit - a special help desk for cops to call to find out that they've pulled over a ninja.

You watch that show? Sorry man, I used to like you but you've gone too far.

Gin Master · Post by **Gin Master** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:28 am

The Katrina sniping story is BS. NOLA PD wouldn't outsource something they enjoyed doing so much.

milosz · Post by **milosz** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:30 am

Sua Sponte wrote: That's the claim you made about the New Yorker article which differs from the one linked. I was referring to the SOFREP article which I assume was faithfully recreated in the link.

Dude, no. You responded directly to my post about the New Yorker profile, even quoting what I said about it. You didn't mention the SOFREP article at all, until someone else did. Seriously. Go look at the first page here.

The guy who wrote the SOFREP article says he was directly told that by Kyle. Why do you believe one over the other.

Well, the SOFREP guy doesn't believe Kyle either, even for the lesser version.
I believe both of the articles - I just don't believe Kyle. Kyle told one story to one group of people and another story to a different group - groups he didn't imagine would ever interact or hear the other version of. This is what people who lie about shit like this do.

Like I said, I don't take the NY'er any more seriously than any other entertainment source. Sometimes thought provoking, rarely convincing.

More hand-waving that lets you off the hook from engaging with the reality. Kyle was a fabricator - if only from the end of his time in the Navy, perhaps a function of his feeling lost in the civilian world, perhaps tied into some obvious PTSD.
That doesn't make him a bad guy - we all know that one dude who has suspect stories from his past that pump him up. The stories get over on strangers and those without a strong bullshit detector, the rest of us are just nice enough to not say anything.

I doubt anyone gives half a fuck about him lying about some shit out of bravado. His service, work with veterans and skill speak for themselves.

I'd Hit It · Post by **I'd Hit It** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:39 am

Those who claim all news sources are equally untrustworthy are generally those who have no interest in any facts except the ones that support their own beliefs.

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:42 am

Kyle was telling ridiculous lies about people for money. You are supposed to get sued for that. If you die during the suit, your estate gets sued. It's completely appropriate. If somebody said they overheard you making anti-American statements and beat your ass for it, and told that lie loudly so they could get rich, you would not let that go.

They're making a movie about him. It's reasonable that Ventura goes hard after Kyle's credibility now, since his profile is going to go way up.

Sua Sponte · Post by **Sua Sponte** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:46 am

In short,
Quoting you does not mean I agree with you. It means I'm specifically addressing you. I mentioned cops and contractors. I'd seen the SOFREP article before and followed the investigation of NOPD at the time.

I don't know the SOFREP guy doesn't believe him. That's only what the NY'er article says and he isn't quoted.

Kyle may well be a liar. About some things. So's everybody (yes, you too). I just don't seem to get the reason why it's such a big deal that he did it or why, in particular, Ventura needs to pursue his widow. If he wasn't decked then, he should be now.

Huh? No hand waving. You said I should read the sympathetic article. I did. I don't give pro anymore sway than con. I don't get much past how the aura of a room changed before moving on.

Sua Sponte · Post by **Sua Sponte** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:49 am

I'd Hit It wrote:Those who claim all news sources are equally untrustworthy are generally those who have no interest in any facts except the ones that support their own beliefs.

OK, I'll play along. Those who claim "Those who claim all news sources are equally untrustworthy are generally those who have no interest in any facts except the ones that support their own beliefs." are REALLY the ones who have no interest in any facts except the ones that support their own beliefs.

Just for the record, nothing was said about a news source, untrustworthy or otherwise.

milosz · Post by **milosz** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:51 am

Sua Sponte wrote: I just don't seem to get the reason why it's such a big deal that he did it or why, in particular, Ventura needs to pursue his widow. If he wasn't decked then, he should be now.

You don't see how being known as the guy who laughed at dead American soldiers and sailors might damage the reputation - and earnings - of a public figure?

Sua Sponte · Post by **Sua Sponte** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:56 am

Grandpa's Spells wrote:Kyle was telling ridiculous lies about people for money. You are supposed to get sued for that. If you die during the suit, your estate gets sued. It's completely appropriate. If somebody said they overheard you making anti-American statements and beat your ass for it, and told that lie loudly so they could get rich, you would not let that go.

They're making a movie about him. It's reasonable that Ventura goes hard after Kyle's credibility now, since his profile is going to go way up.

The second line I believe.

The first, I again wonder why Ventura is believable and Kyle not. What money did Kyle make from whom in telling this supposed lie?

And you aren't supposed to get sued. It's a choice. A person makes a statement. That guy's gone. Estates aren't people. The class move is to simply refute the account again and express his condolences at the widow's loss.

IGX

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