IGX

Bud Charniga's gaping asshole wrote:the issue is not that contact sports are dangerous. Everyone knows that. The issue is that the NFL, for years, deliberately downplayed and obscured the risk of multiple, repeated concussive and sub-concussive injuries.

Bang into large men for a living, you're gonna fuck some shit up. It's not so obvious that if you bang into large men for a living, your brain will turn into swiss cheese.

All the other bullshit aside, this. The NFL appears to have made its bones (and billions) on BIG HITS highlight reels, while systematically covering up the long-term damage involved and doping up players to continue on.

I'm surprised the NCAA isn't scared shitless of the NFL settlement. At least those guys got paid to play - if you could show lasting trauma for enough "student-athletes," that's a big pot of gold for a class action suit.

I don't want kids but if I had a son I'd encourage him to play baseball (learn to hit the curve, kid, baseball has guaranteed contracts) and train in a grappling-based martial art (or wrestling). Basketball, track and field, whatever, if he's into those instead. Soccer, maybe - my understanding is that headers are pretty tough even on boys.
Concussions can happen in anything - wild pitches, awkward takedowns, etc. but the routine trauma of football or a striking MA aren't there.

The rules for tackling in rugby (both codes) is that you must wrap your arms around the opponent - or try to. Charging into someone is not allowed. Even with that and the absence of helmets, union has started to introduce mandatory post-concussion breaks and cognitive tests. Studies show that playing an international rugby match is the equivalent of being in a number of car crashes at 30mph.

Allowing and promoting running into someone with a padded helmet is the stoopids.

I didn't know that about league, or is it just the ball Carrier who is allowed to charge into the opponent ? That head down ram man stuff from nfl is pretty dodgy though

Mickey O'neil wrote:This wasn't the first I had heard of the concussion issue but after seeing the report I really don't believe I will be letting my son play football.

I can't see how this isn't the beginning of the end for youth football, which is more chosen by the parents than the kids. I imagine the leagues need to get insurance and that will be done for soon.

In high school, boys will play football as long as they think it will get them laid, and at that age parental veto power has its limits, but I have to believe the lawyers are already circling and wringing their hands, and schools will drop programs.

The big colleges and the pros will not go down no matter what, there is too much money wrapped up in this, but if high school programs fade away I wonder if it will still be the money maker it is now.

On the up side the USA will probably be more competitive in olympic weightlifting and will probably be a powerhouse in field events once we don't have football draining off talent.

Mickey O'neil wrote:
So, for those of you with young boys, has this changed your view on letting your kid(s) play football?

Definitely

Yorkie wrote:Thanks for the clips mate. As I've said I've seen very little American football, I don't have cable / sky so I might catch a couple of highlight shows a year.

I did choose league over union as the hits tend to be bigger, as well as the size and speed of the players, that rugby clip is all Union.

Channel 4. Monday 1am ish, broadcast the Sunday Night Game. Set record. Its the only NFL i get to see.

Also, your wrong about union,

Gorbachev sucks

I stopped coaching girls rugby because of concussions. These were caused almost entirely because the girls lacked the neck strength to keep their head stable during a tackle and subsequent fall. I couldn't fix the issue with training, and I didn't want to spend another 20+ hours in the ER and explain to a another set of parents why their baby girl had a brain injury

chi wrote:

Yorkie wrote:Thanks for the clips mate. As I've said I've seen very little American football, I don't have cable / sky so I might catch a couple of highlight shows a year.

I did choose league over union as the hits tend to be bigger, as well as the size and speed of the players, that rugby clip is all Union.

Channel 4. Monday 1am ish, broadcast the Sunday Night Game. Set record. Its the only NFL i get to see.

Also, your wrong about union,

Cheers mate, I caught some the games at wembly last Sunday night.

Which bit about union is wrong ? I'm sure the ball touching is correct ;-)
But I know it's pretty much caught up to league in size and fitness of its players

protobuilder wrote:Gorbachev sucks

You can't put "Gorbachev" in a sentence without the word "suck", can you.

Gorbachev wrote:

protobuilder wrote:Gorbachev sucks

You can't put "Gorbachev" in a sentence without the word "suck", can you.

What's with that pate comrade?

The problem is no matter how much padding you wrap around the head nothing on the outside of the helmet is going to prevent the brain from moving around inside the head, which is what really causes a concussion.
The speed of the game has increased dramatically from the 50's and 60's maybe this is why we don't see as many concussion issues with these players as in the modern era. The 70's up until 2000's many teams played on artificial turf which was basically lightly carpeted concrete. I'm sure being hit and then slammed into concrete does a lot of damage.
Is the end of football coming? No. As long as there is a profit to be made the game will survive.

I think football helmets made out of depleted uranium surrounded by bubble wrap is the cure.

Conflating brain injuries in retired pro footballers vs. kids today isn't exactly an accurate comparison. The pros have been playing at the highest levels for 10-20 years including college while kids don't have nearly that time invested in the game.

Also, when today's pros were coming up, mild concussions were essentially ignored. At least in Pop Warner, coaches and medics are trained and highly sensitized about head trauma. A kid who shows signs of a the most minor concussion is not allowed to practice with contact or play until he receives approval from his doctor. In the two minor concussions I've been associated with, that was at around 10 days to two weeks. Healing time is apparently very important in these injuries.

Additionally teams are weight and age controlled so the chances of a rabbit getting run over by a bus are remote. This isn't necessarily true in school football. My 13 y.o. 5' tall & 110# grandson plays with a kid that is 6'-4" and 220 lbs (also 13 y.o. BTW)

DrDonkeyLove wrote:Conflating brain injuries in retired pro footballers vs. kids today isn't exactly an accurate comparison. The pros have been playing at the highest levels for 10-20 years including college while kids don't have nearly that time invested in the game.

Also, when today's pros were coming up, mild concussions were essentially ignored. At least in Pop Warner, coaches and medics are trained and highly sensitized about head trauma. A kid who shows signs of a the most minor concussion is not allowed to practice with contact or play until he receives approval from his doctor. In the two minor concussions I've been associated with, that was at around 10 days to two weeks. Healing time is apparently very important in these injuries.

Additionally teams are weight and age controlled so the chances of a rabbit getting run over by a bus are remote. This isn't necessarily true in school football. My 13 y.o. 5' tall & 110# grandson plays with a kid that is 6'-4" and 220 lbs (also 13 y.o. BTW)

In the Frontline episode, they talked about two football players that they autopsied. One was 21 and played in college, and the other was 18 and had just played high school football. Also...

According to the study, the BU researchers now have 50 confirmed cases of former football players with CTE — 33 who played in the NFL, one in the CFL, one semi-professionally, nine through college and six who played only through high school.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... l-players/

A few months back I watched a game from the 80s it was a link on facebook and I was suprised by how much more violent the game was play to play back then. A lot you could do back then that you can not do today. It just seemed like 1/2 the hits would have been highlights today or illegal. As far as the players being bigger today and smaller than, its to scale. Football is still doing ok, when I go to my nephews games the best athletes in their school are still playing. That includes the boys from Africa and haiti who you would think play soccer.

this thread died when we got no further information about what badger baitong is....IMO.

Yes I Have Balls wrote:this thread died when we got no further information about what badger baitong is....IMO.

Right!? Just another half-assed Gorby job like that goddamn UFC 162 thread. What a disappointment.

Drew0786 wrote:The problem is no matter how much padding you wrap around the head nothing on the outside of the helmet is going to prevent the brain from moving around inside the head, which is what really causes a concussion.

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ. Not directed at you Drew, just this lemminglike belief that helmets don't make things safer. Padding things works. It's a pretty well established practice. It takes about sixth grade understanding of physics to see how it protects the contents. Acceleration is the enemy of eggs in your shopping bag, and the brain inside the skull. Padding / helments absorbs some of the energy and the contents are subjected to less sharp acceleration. If you wrap the eggs in bubble wrap, yep, ultimately they still have to decelerate to a stop when the package hits the ground, but surprise, they are less likely to break when they hit the ground. Lets consider an experiment. One man is a reasonable, low tech, common sense kind of guy, wearing a helmet. The other is a guy who reads as much as possible online, even reads on his phone when he takes a dump! and doesn't believe in helmets since the real villain is this mysterious "acceleration" thing. These two men lock up and head butt each other until one has a concussion. Do you really think this contest is too close to call? Do you really believe the odds are about even, the helmet won't help? For fucks sake.

ccrow wrote:

Drew0786 wrote:The problem is no matter how much padding you wrap around the head nothing on the outside of the helmet is going to prevent the brain from moving around inside the head, which is what really causes a concussion.

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ. Not directed at you Drew, just this lemminglike belief that helmets don't make things safer. Padding things works. It's a pretty well established practice. It takes about sixth grade understanding of physics to see how it protects the contents. Acceleration is the enemy of eggs in your shopping bag, and the brain inside the skull. Padding / helments absorbs some of the energy and the contents are subjected to less sharp acceleration. If you wrap the eggs in bubble wrap, yep, ultimately they still have to decelerate to a stop when the package hits the ground, but surprise, they are less likely to break when they hit the ground. Lets consider an experiment. One man is a reasonable, low tech, common sense kind of guy, wearing a helmet. The other is a guy who reads as much as possible online, even reads on his phone when he takes a dump! and doesn't believe in helmets since the real villain is this mysterious "acceleration" thing. These two men lock up and head butt each other until one has a concussion. Do you really think this contest is too close to call? Do you really believe the odds are about even, the helmet won't help? For fucks sake.

One guy gets knocked out quick. The other keeps at it, suffering continual micro traumas, and ends up with CTE.

The point is repeated small blows. Linemen are most susceptible, yet they aren't the ones taking the huge made for TV hits.

ccrow wrote: If you wrap the eggs in bubble wrap, yep, ultimately they still have to decelerate to a stop when the package hits the ground, but surprise, they are less likely to break when they hit the ground.

Exactly the shell of the egg doesn't break but the yolk still moves. Helmets protect the skull from cuts, bruises, and getting cracked open. Not what is inside your head.

If you are in a car going 60 mph and run into a tree, do you stop moving when the car does?

nafod wrote:

DrDonkeyLove wrote:Conflating brain injuries in retired pro footballers vs. kids today isn't exactly an accurate comparison. The pros have been playing at the highest levels for 10-20 years including college while kids don't have nearly that time invested in the game.

Also, when today's pros were coming up, mild concussions were essentially ignored. At least in Pop Warner, coaches and medics are trained and highly sensitized about head trauma. A kid who shows signs of a the most minor concussion is not allowed to practice with contact or play until he receives approval from his doctor. In the two minor concussions I've been associated with, that was at around 10 days to two weeks. Healing time is apparently very important in these injuries.

Additionally teams are weight and age controlled so the chances of a rabbit getting run over by a bus are remote. This isn't necessarily true in school football. My 13 y.o. 5' tall & 110# grandson plays with a kid that is 6'-4" and 220 lbs (also 13 y.o. BTW)

In the Frontline episode, they talked about two football players that they autopsied. One was 21 and played in college, and the other was 18 and had just played high school football. Also...

According to the study, the BU researchers now have 50 confirmed cases of former football players with CTE — 33 who played in the NFL, one in the CFL, one semi-professionally, nine through college and six who played only through high school.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... l-players/

I went to a Jr. HS football game yesterday afternoon sensitized to this subject. I'd read the article and while it may not be as conclusive as the BU researchers think, it's a serious situation and BU is a respected institution.

I saw two hits of consequence. One resulted in the wind being knocked out of one kid and the other ended up with a knee problem, but the hits were hard enough that there could have been some unnoticed head trauma.

I also saw two groups of boys doing what boys love to do: hitting, smashing, running, overpowering a foe, and working as a team. Things they've been doing since our ancestors came down from the trees and started walking upright across the savannah. My grandson hasn't hit his growth spurt so he's second team and only got a few plays. In those plays he recovered a fumble, drew a penalty from the offense as he was about to tackle the ball carrier, and got a 1/2 sack. I was sitting at the top of the stands but I could see a physical change in his countenance from there.

After the game, which they won handily, one of the coaches reportedly made a comment that they would have won by even more if they didn't have to put in the "scrubs", of which my grandson is one. That comment meant very little to him because he knew what he'd accomplished. That's a confidence and character builder in every way. After the game, he could have received a ride directly home but he wanted to be on the bus with his team.

We can't have kids with oatmeal where their brains were and safety has to be a super high priority so thank G_d for the BU study. Regardless of where the studies take us, kids football on a beautiful autumn afternoon is an awesome thing - and, it's somehow important. I hope it's not another one of America's great traditions that gets watered down to nothing or lost.

ccrow wrote:

Drew0786 wrote:The problem is no matter how much padding you wrap around the head nothing on the outside of the helmet is going to prevent the brain from moving around inside the head, which is what really causes a concussion.

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ. Not directed at you Drew, just this lemminglike belief that helmets don't make things safer. Padding things works. It's a pretty well established practice. It takes about sixth grade understanding of physics to see how it protects the contents. Acceleration is the enemy of eggs in your shopping bag, and the brain inside the skull.

Padding reduces the odds of acute injuries like concussions. It appears to enable you to take less serious hits all day, however, which leads to chronic problems.

Where Drew's wrong is padding absolutely reduces those short term injuries. Getting K.O.'d is just a serious concussion, and knockouts go down as padding increases.

ccrow literally has a 4th grade grasp on physics. The egg shell and yolk analogy was completely opposite of the problem being discussed.

Plus, remember, no one is debating the force distribution aspects of padding. Given the same force, padding helps. However, if padding allows more force to be delivered, then there is some point of diminishing returns.