IGX

I wanted to jump back in, but wasn't sure how to spell Scientology. So I googled it first and there is no "W".

Batboy2/75 wrote:
You and your kind like to ape the tactics and equipment of the military.

Batboy2/75 wrote:

JDub wrote:I never said LEO's should be held in the same light as soldiers you stupid fuck. And I agree they should not. That still doesn't make them or the others you listed any less important. As for your opinion of me I couldn't care less, you know jack shit about me. I've read numerous posts from you and your fucking high and mighty attitude. As far as I'm concerned you're a waste of flesh. Take your DD214 and cram it up your faggoty ass. You're obviously of superior intellect to everyone here and I'm assuming you have the superior elite tactical prowess to match so I will walk away from this argument, while I still can in one piece, you tough guy.

Let's cut to the chase.

You and your kind like to ape the tactics and equipment of the military. The big key difference is the military abusues and kills the enemies of of country. You and your kind instead abuse and kill your own countrymen. To top things off, you're not content with playing soldier, you want the same type of accolades. "That still doesn't make them (LEO) or the others you listed any less important" said the snivling bitch.

You guessed it dumbass; I do have superior elite tactical powess to match! You wanted to see who could carry whos jock? You wanted to have a dick measuring contest? I win. I spent 5 years in Special Operations doing things you and your kind can only dream of, let alone do. So take your participation trophy, go sit down the with teachers and shut the fuck up.

You, like all the boys in blue, want to be special. Your not.

Batboy2/75 wrote:

JDub wrote:I never said LEO's should be held in the same light as soldiers you stupid fuck. And I agree they should not. That still doesn't make them or the others you listed any less important. As for your opinion of me I couldn't care less, you know jack shit about me. I've read numerous posts from you and your fucking high and mighty attitude. As far as I'm concerned you're a waste of flesh. Take your DD214 and cram it up your faggoty ass. You're obviously of superior intellect to everyone here and I'm assuming you have the superior elite tactical prowess to match so I will walk away from this argument, while I still can in one piece, you tough guy.

Let's cut to the chase.

You and your kind like to ape the tactics and equipment of the military. The big key difference is the military abusues and kills the enemies of of country. You and your kind instead abuse and kill your own countrymen. To top things off, you're not content with playing soldier, you want the same type of accolades. "That still doesn't make them (LEO) or the others you listed any less important" said the snivling bitch.

You guessed it dumbass; I do have superior elite tactical powess to match! You wanted to see who could carry whos jock? You wanted to have a dick measuring contest? I win. I spent 5 years in Special Operations doing things you and your kind can only dream of, let alone do. So take your participation trophy, go sit down the with teachers and shut the fuck up.

You, like all the boys in blue, want to be special. Your not.

Obviously you didn't learn to read while you were there. I am not a cop anymore. And had I wanted to be in the military I would have. I don't or never did dream of doing anything that the special ops does. I had and have no desire for that. Everyone online was special ops, if you were, my hats off to you and thanks for your service. And I should hope special ops training is elite and better than police training. After all they are not even in the same league. So you may remove the chip from your shoulder and cob from your ass, you win. No sniveling here though, you are still a pretentious cunt

You guessed it dumbass; I do have superior elite tactical powess to match! You wanted to see who could carry whos jock? You wanted to have a dick measuring contest? I win. I spent 5 years in Special Operations doing things you and your kind can only dream of, let alone do. So take your participation trophy, go sit down the with teachers and shut the fuck up.

I laughed so hard I almost pissed!

Everyone online was special ops, if you were, my hats off to you and thanks for your service

Bats is indeed one of the baddest of the bad. He is so high speed low drag he has no friction.

What a bunch of un-American drivel.

Rights are not earned, or deserved. They are rights.

Having classes of citizens is nothing but slavery remade.

Fuck all y'all. A firing squad would be the least anybody attempting to create such a state deserves.

Starship Troopers seems to have been meant as a political essay as well as a novel. Large portions of the book take place in classrooms, with Rico and other characters engaged in debates with their History and Moral Philosophy teacher, who is often thought[16] to be speaking in Heinlein's voice.[16] The overall theme of the book is that social responsibility requires being prepared to make individual sacrifice. Heinlein's Terran Federation is a limited democracy, with aspects of a meritocracy in regard to full citizenship, based on voluntarily assuming a responsibility for the common good. Suffrage can only be earned by those willing to serve their society by at least two years of volunteer Federal Service – "the franchise is today limited to discharged veterans", (ch. XII), instead of, as Heinlein would later note, anyone "...who is 18 years old and has a body temperature near 37 °C"[17] The Federation is required to find a place for anyone who desires to serve, regardless of his skill or aptitude (this also includes service ranging from teaching to dangerous non-military work such as serving as experimental medical test subjects to military service—such as Rico's Mobile Infantry).

There is an explicit contrast to the "democracies of the 20th century", which according to the novel, collapsed because "people had been led to believe that they could simply vote for whatever they wanted... and get it, without toil, without sweat, without tears."[18] Indeed, Colonel Dubois criticizes as unrealistic the famous U.S. Declaration of Independence line concerning "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". No one can stop anyone from pursuing happiness, but the Colonel claims life and liberty exist only if they are deliberately sought and, often, bought painfully by great effort and sacrifice.

He was after all a US Naval Academy grad.

Schlegel wrote:Rights are not earned, or deserved. They are rights.

/thread

Schlegel wrote:What a bunch of un-American drivel.

Rights are not earned, or deserved. They are rights.

Having classes of citizens is nothing but slavery remade.

Fuck all y'all. A firing squad would be the least anybody attempting to create such a state deserves.

Need to read your American history, as many places you had to own property or pay a poll tax to vote. It did keep the uneducated the fuck out of things but it also kept out many who fought.

This does not make any classes other than Citizen and Civilian, meaning those who gave part of themselves that can vote or run for and hold elected office and those with all the other rights except franchise and most in the USA are pure civilian, they would not even do the non military jobs to earn the right to vote.

Allowing everyone to vote is why we have the cunts we do from both parties. Would some cunts still get through? Yes but not to the level we have and when politicians decided to send our forces to war, you would have a bunch of people who had done that job. or dealt with death and trying to put a broken person back together so they would not be doing it from the pure political and financial outlook these pigs in DC do now. And many of them would have children in the breech.

When it comes to a head, and it is vets and others with balls who put it back together, a firing squad is what anyone who sat on the sidelines or were part of the opposition will get if they oppose that idea.

There are lots of trigger pullers who've read Heinline and advocate for that, there are trigger pullers who have never read it and still like the idea.

Schlegel wrote:What a bunch of un-American drivel.

Rights are not earned, or deserved. They are rights.

Having classes of citizens is nothing but slavery remade.

Fuck all y'all. A firing squad would be the least anybody attempting to create such a state deserves.

Them founders were so Un-American. They limited the vote not just to property owners, but large property owners. Not to mention the whole gender and real slavery thing.

A country that let's anyone vote is doomed. The moochers of society will vote themselves more and more benefits from the public treasury. Why should they care? They don't have to pay for it or at least believe they won't.

So should we let 13 yr olds vote? If it's a right that doesn't have to be earned or deserved, why do we limit the vote to yhose 18 yrs old and on up?

tough old man wrote:

Starship Troopers seems to have been meant as a political essay as well as a novel. Large portions of the book take place in classrooms, with Rico and other characters engaged in debates with their History and Moral Philosophy teacher, who is often thought[16] to be speaking in Heinlein's voice.[16] The overall theme of the book is that social responsibility requires being prepared to make individual sacrifice. Heinlein's Terran Federation is a limited democracy, with aspects of a meritocracy in regard to full citizenship, based on voluntarily assuming a responsibility for the common good. Suffrage can only be earned by those willing to serve their society by at least two years of volunteer Federal Service – "the franchise is today limited to discharged veterans", (ch. XII), instead of, as Heinlein would later note, anyone "...who is 18 years old and has a body temperature near 37 °C"[17] The Federation is required to find a place for anyone who desires to serve, regardless of his skill or aptitude (this also includes service ranging from teaching to dangerous non-military work such as serving as experimental medical test subjects to military service—such as Rico's Mobile Infantry).

There is an explicit contrast to the "democracies of the 20th century", which according to the novel, collapsed because "people had been led to believe that they could simply vote for whatever they wanted... and get it, without toil, without sweat, without tears."[18] Indeed, Colonel Dubois criticizes as unrealistic the famous U.S. Declaration of Independence line concerning "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". No one can stop anyone from pursuing happiness, but the Colonel claims life and liberty exist only if they are deliberately sought and, often, bought painfully by great effort and sacrifice.

He was after all a US Naval Academy grad.

The man had a lot of great ideas, was a great author to piss on racism (John Ricco was of Filipino extraction, living in Argentina, spoke Tagalog as well as English and in other books his heroes run the spectrem of humanity.) and foretold a lot of what we have going on now.

Asimov was just a science fiction writter, Heinlin was using sci fi to his own ends. He alos thought L.Ron Hubbard was a conman and a Queer.

tough old man wrote:Bats is indeed one of the baddest of the bad. He is so high speed low drag he has no friction.

Thats great, as I said, I have all the respect in the world for his service and others just like him.

Every attempt to limit voting to what you think is "the proper sort" recreates the very injustice for which we had a revolution.
That our forefathers committed the same sins does not justify them, it should instead be a lesson.

Schlegel wrote:Every attempt to limit voting to what you think is "the proper sort" recreates the very injustice for which we had a revolution.
That our forefathers committed the same sins does not justify them, it should instead be a lesson.

You didn't answer my question. Should 13 yr olds get to vote?

The real question is who get's to vote? If that is everyone. Then everyone better have some skin in the game.

Batboy2/75 wrote:
You didn't answer my question.

And I don't need to.

Anybody who swore true to defend the Constitution of these United States should know better than to endorse any of the terrible ideas in this thread.

Schlegel wrote:Every attempt to limit voting to what you think is "the proper sort" recreates the very injustice for which we had a revolution.
That our forefathers committed the same sins does not justify them, it should instead be a lesson.

Like restricting it to citizens?

Schlegel wrote:

Batboy2/75 wrote:
You didn't answer my question.

And I don't need to.

Anybody who swore true to defend the Constitution of these United States should know better than to endorse any of the terrible ideas in this thread.

Bull shit. You won't answer the question because the answer is so obvious. We already limit the right to vote by age. So do you believe in the status quo or do believe the right to vote should be extended to all American's regardless of age? The moment you agree there should be an age limit, you agree that there should be limits.

What ideas are terrible?

The idea that all Americans over the age of 18 yrs old should be subject to military service?

or

That the willingness to serve is a better qualification for voting rights than age, wealth, gender, religion and or race?

The military needs to do a little better job of weeding out the fuck ups if that's going to be the route to citizenship. I was amazed at the number of fuck ups and down right scum bags that made it through basic much less AIT and beyond.

Ed Zachary wrote:The military needs to do a little better job of weeding out the fuck ups if that's going to be the route to citizenship. I was amazed at the number of fuck ups and down right scum bags that made it through basic much less AIT and beyond.

Drill Sergeant's hands are tied EZ. TRADOC puts out guidance and woe be the DS that defies that and actually tries to instill anything in new recruits.

You fuck up on the trail (and by fuck up I mean go against the grain) You'll never see E-7.

Schlegel wrote:

Batboy2/75 wrote:
You didn't answer my question.

And I don't need to.

Anybody who swore true to defend the Constitution of these United States should know better than to endorse any of the terrible ideas in this thread.

Except for the fact that the Constitution specifically allows for itself to be changed so, you know, ideas can be introduced as the country evolves or "mistakes" were discovered.

Article V

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.

Ed Zachary wrote:The military needs to do a little better job of weeding out the fuck ups if that's going to be the route to citizenship. I was amazed at the number of fuck ups and down right scum bags that made it through basic much less AIT and beyond.

With Bats as evidence some of those fuck ups even make it to SO. (Or so he claims)

It's an interesting idea. The idea of some kind of filter on voting is an appealing idea. In this current broken system, votes just go to who has the most campaign money, and special interests are the best things at amassing campaign money, so you have this inherent corruption at the heart of the system. Maybe if you filtered out some of the voters, you'd get better outcomes? (Better for who? There's the rub.)

In this case I don't think the founding fathers will be of much help. Thomas Jefferson and many others were not in favor of a standing peacetime army, so the military track to voting doesn't get much traction in that respect. Would they just let the Navy vote? Nobody back then was dumb enough to think they'd be around long without a navy.

The skin in the game thing is not specific enough. What's the skin, and what's the game? So getting people to vote based on the long term national interest rather than short term personal interest would be nice. Would soldiers-only voting vote better than the population at large? I don't think soldiers are particularly well equipped to divine what's good policy and what isn't, versus the average person. I see nothing (and certainly nothing in this thread) to support the idea that veterans, God bless them, are any better at voting in the national interest rather than their personal interest.

The only thing I can see servicemen-only voting doing is satisfying some people's sense of fairness. Of course people who think life is fair shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Which is more important, having an economy or having a national defense? You certainly can't have a national defense without an economy. Of course you could argue that you can't have an economy without a defense (at least not for long). Now in the modern world there are counterexamples you could mention here, but the ones that come to mind actually get their defense free, or 90% plus subsidized, from (in most cases) the USA. Which is a GREAT deal for them. We are doing them a huge and immensely expensive favor.

Hey here's an idea, if you had to be in the US Army to vote in Sweden etc., I am okay with that. Why not. Test it out, it would be fucking funny. Russian soldiers get to vote in Syria and Iran, and Chinese soldiers get to vote in North Korea. Anyways, I can't believe that any system based on skin in the game would have the guys on the job doing the voting while the guys picking up the tab for the whole fucking party just sit idly by. Of now that I think of it I am already wrong about that, see GREAT deal above.

I have to say this whole discussion if nothing else is poorly timed, somehow it takes some of the luster off of Veteran's Day. If you're only serving yourself, is it really service? Or is it just a job? And in peacetime, welfare with guns? I can not speak for the founding fathers, I am no great student of history, but I am old enough to remember very very well the greatest generation servicemen in my family. I don't think this idea of only servicemen voting would have gotten any traction with them. Of course, in there generation, it wouldn't have made much of a difference, because just about everyone served.

...Except the women of course. And we all agree that women's sufferage was a bad idea. Anyone who doesn't agree about that now, will agree about it in a few years, after America's broads bring us President Hilary Clinton.

Of course I am probably taking some troll bait here but what the hell, there isn't enough to eat otherwise.

Any kind of filtering method will immediately get corrupted and exploited. It's the human way.

Special operators can kill through the internet.

JDub wrote:Special operators can kill through the internet.

This is mathematics' most deadly operator