IGX

I like. This is a used Browning HP clone, 9mm, retired from the Bulgarian Army, where it was the standard duty pistol. The HP having the first high-capacity magazine, it also holds 13+1, and is nearly identical to the HP, except for mostly cosmetic features. The sights are dovetailed in, so it is possible to adjust them. Most of the internals are interchangeable with OEM, I have read. Worked well for me, though it had repeated failures to feed for my wife, I suspect because of her loose grip on the frame. I am attempting to talk her into a revolver, as she became quite frustrated- I noticed both she and my buddy's girlfriend had trouble racking slides due to weaker grip strength, as well. When I cleaned the gun later I polished the throat and removed the magazine safety. Much smoother trigger pull, and a bit lighter pull as well. I know the 1911 has some big fans here, but I like the HP design, and it's a little slimmer which is nice for carrying discreetly. One of the few designs used by both Axis and Allies in WWII. The Germans, BTW, ordered theirs without the magazine safety. It is thought be a French addition to the design, actually.
Around here they are commonly available for under $300, a great price for a quality forged frame, all metal gun.

Hi-Powers are fine pistols and the proper size for a weapon chambered in 9mm.

Was the feed problem with ball ammo? If so get that ramp polished and barrel throated or this will happen with hollow points. Your not fighting for NATO so you should never handicap yourself with 9mmm ball in a gun you might defend hearth and home with. (And I know guys in the service who bought HP for their sidearms because they rather live then die if things ever got bad enough to pull an M-9 up close and worry about the Geneva accords later if at all. In Trooper's case a Glock 19, (Sec Ops carries alot of personal sidearms. another great platform for the 9MM.)

A buddy of mine said the rule for sidearms in his unit in Afghanistan is carry whatever you want as long as you have 2 of them. One on you and one in the arms locker for spare parts. He carried a .41Mag revolver. He was in regular line unit.

The thing is, it never had a misfeed in my hand, so I'm pretty sure she wasn't gripping firmly enough for the all the motion to occur in the slide instead of the frame. But it was so difficult for her to grip the slide (the cold didn't help either) that I don't think it's worth the effort to fix right now, especially as the Arcus is for me and not her anyway.

I'm thinking a 357 revolver loaded with 38sp. is the way to go, so she can have ease of operation, low recoil, and just concentrate on hitting the target. My goal for her is just to get her comfortable and make the outing fun.

I did hit the throat and ramp with 8,000 grit micromesh polishing cloth afterwards which shined it up nicely without altering the shape. The ramp is the later straight design, so I don't anticipate any problem with HP vs ball.

Is there a reason, apart from cost, that one would choose a Hi Power over a 9mm 1911?

It can be tricky to get a 1911 to work in 9mm, at least in part because the 1911 was designed to work with the longer 45 ACP. The only 1911-style gun built for the shorter action of a 9mm is the Springfield EMP. I love mine, but it took two trips back to the SA for them to iron out what (I think) were quality control issues.

Also, different people prefer the feel of different guns.

Schlegel There is probably no bigger Hi Power fan here than me. I have 2 Browning Practicals and 2 liscensed out of Portugal. Freaking awesome pistols!
I have even interchanged parts in an emergency and it still worked flawlessly. Tussey gun works did my polish and triggers on all guns and I cant think of a time I ever had an issue.
Spells, HP's fit my hand better than anything I have tried. Second for me is a CZ. Its the most natural gun I shoot.

TOM, I'm pretty pleased with this even though it's technically a "Hi Power type" and not a true clone. It's just a bit more blocky than an actual HP, but still not as much as a 1911, which I find too large and square in the grip. Am thinking of getting some wood grips from Craig Spegel that thin the profile a little more. They seem well reviewed, have you ever used them? Checkered walnut is just $45
like this:

Grandpa's Spells wrote:Is there a reason, apart from cost, that one would choose a Hi Power over a 9mm 1911?

Because shooting 9 from that size and weight of handgun is fucking ghey, you might as well get a Berreta 92F and go full fag.

I had a STAR 1911 in 9mm but it was Florida, I was young and it was dirt ass cheap.

The Hi- Power, like the Glock 19, CZ-75 (A Check improvment on the Hi- Power concept some would say. DA and SA for kids who just can't feel good about carrying a cocked and locked handgun, like I have a slight hangup about my Glock because it has no external safety other than the one on the trigger, as Mexican carry is an acceptable carry option as I was trained but won't with the G19.) and the H&K P-7M8 are the size a 9mm should be.

Schegal

Good idea on the. 357 with .38s to get her used to shooting a big bore handgun. Once she is used to it make sure she shoots some real .357 though, so it's a defense option for her at home. 38 a so so defense round. .357 = Dead enemy.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:Is there a reason, apart from cost, that one would choose a Hi Power over a 9mm 1911?

Spells, I like the feel better, it's half the price, was designed ground up for 9mm, and holds more rounds in a stock mag. I'd put it as why pay extra for a 1911 if you aren't loading 45s?

My criteria were to have a comfortable, reliable, reasonably accurate gun to carry for the least cash out the door. Runner up was a Makarov, but I like my ammo options better in regular 9mm , which I figure has to return to normal supply levels at some point. At the moment, I can hardly find any. I nearly got the Makarov just because I can still find thousands of rounds for sale with ease.

Yes but the Makarov hits like a girl. The 9mm does too but she's an angry little cunt.

Try teaching her proper handgun machanics before you run out and buy a wheal gun.

On a related tangent; TOM mentioned the CZ. I'm a huge fan of the CZ75 and 9mm P+ HP rounds. I prefer Federal HST P+ rounds at this date and time. The only double stack handgun I instantly fell in love with.

DARTH wrote:Because shooting 9 from that size and weight of handgun is fucking ghey, you might as well get a Berreta 92F and go full fag.
[...]
The Hi- Power, like the Glock 19, CZ-75 [...] are the size a 9mm should be.

A CZ-75 weighs just as much as a 1911 (or a 92F). I'm fairly sure my old CZ 75B SP-01 actually outweighed my commander-size 9mm 1911 (Nighthawk Talon II).

milosz wrote:

DARTH wrote:Because shooting 9 from that size and weight of handgun is fucking ghey, you might as well get a Berreta 92F and go full fag.
[...]
The Hi- Power, like the Glock 19, CZ-75 [...] are the size a 9mm should be.

A CZ-75 weighs just as much as a 1911 (or a 92F). I'm fairly sure my old CZ 75B SP-01 actually outweighed my commander-size 9mm 1911 (Nighthawk Talon II).

You sure about that? I've shot plenty of CZ's in my time and they certianly are not as big as a full 1911A1(The Commander is a compact, so on that your right for sure.) or a 92F. A Little beefier than a Hi-Power for sure but not by that much.

Schlegel wrote:

Grandpa's Spells wrote:Is there a reason, apart from cost, that one would choose a Hi Power over a 9mm 1911?

Spells, I like the feel better, it's half the price, was designed ground up for 9mm, and holds more rounds in a stock mag. I'd put it as why pay extra for a 1911 if you aren't loading 45s?

My criteria were to have a comfortable, reliable, reasonably accurate gun to carry for the least cash out the door. Runner up was a Makarov, but I like my ammo options better in regular 9mm , which I figure has to return to normal supply levels at some point. At the moment, I can hardly find any. I nearly got the Makarov just because I can still find thousands of rounds for sale with ease.

They are cheap enough to warrant grabbing. I like mine alright but I got the 12 round version and it sort of defeats the purpose of the smaller frame. In the 7 round version they are nice little guns ala' a Walther.

milosz wrote:

DARTH wrote:Because shooting 9 from that size and weight of handgun is fucking ghey, you might as well get a Berreta 92F and go full fag.
[...]
The Hi- Power, like the Glock 19, CZ-75 [...] are the size a 9mm should be.

A CZ-75 weighs just as much as a 1911 (or a 92F). I'm fairly sure my old CZ 75B SP-01 actually outweighed my commander-size 9mm 1911 (Nighthawk Talon II).

Shot one of these last week. Awesome pistol.

Doesn't Liam Neeson use one of these in Taken 2? I'm just askin' so don't be hatin'.

DARTH wrote:Yes but the Makarov hits like a girl. The 9mm does too but she's an angry little cunt.

Look up the stats on Cor Bon's defense rounds- the 9mm DPX is nothing to sneeze at. I think it's the NYPD's current round.

If it has to be a handgun, I favor revolvers for people who aren't "gun people." Unless she wants to spend time at the range, learning to control & trust the Browning, it's not for her. For you, the Arcus/Browning sounds great.

Could a long gun be the answer for her? Unless she's going to carry, or clear your house (bad idea), a shotgun* or semiauto rifle might be better. It would encourage her to defend in place from a tactically superior position. And she could be more accurate & confident with it.


*Maybe a 20 gauge.

Schlegel wrote:

DARTH wrote:Yes but the Makarov hits like a girl. The 9mm does too but she's an angry little cunt.

Look up the stats on Cor Bon's defense rounds- the 9mm DPX is nothing to sneeze at. I think it's the NYPD's current round.

I'm not anti 9mm it has it's place and to me thats in a gun you want to carry concealled or for just in case but you want it lightweight, it's better than fist and knives after 10 feet IMO.

But it does not hit like a .40 S&W or a 230 gr .45ACP, I would take a ball 45ACP over a HP 9mm.

( My lady's gramps tells of hitting a kraut soldier in the arm and him spining to the ground with a shattered arm and screaming like Hell. That was G.I. ball ammo. He also tells of a buddy taken multiple hits in the torse from a P-38 and beating the kraut with his helmet beofre passing out (He lived).

He was rather happy when he saw my 1911 and how I handle it and how I instructed his grandaughter to use it.

I used to read shooting reports and the like when I worked at Shooters and 9mm is very unforgiven when you don't hit vitals whereas .45s do tend to drop people hard as shit, shatter arm and leg bones, destroy shoulders. I have read some scarry shit about assholes taken multiple rounds of 9mm and still killing their victum. Oh most of them did eventually die but after they did their deed.

IMO if you are going to make 9mm your main pistol round, you better practice, practice and practice gunfighting and marksmenship. You need to be a centerline shooter, bladder to forehead or a competant headhunter. You also need to be big on double and triple taps.

Hey, I do own one and I like her for the most part but not like I do my 1911A! or my .357.

I did gravitate to carrying a 9mm on the range because it was lighter and I was at the point where I could consitantly do headshots on the combat range hung over.

When I finally move out there we should go do some shooting together and then play some music.

Most of the anacdotal stories about the weak performance of 9mm fail to take into account 2 factors:

1) Most street level crime shootings with 9mm involve cheap ball ammo on the part of the "non LEO" participants. 9mm ball is a poor round. Using a quality 9mm p+ HP rounds fixes this problem

2) Some people are just harder to kill than others. Plenty of stories about people taking multiple large caliber rounds and they kept on trucking for a while. Long enough to continue kicking and making a fuss. Add it drugs and some people have to be pumped full of holes and bled out before they are stopped.

My daily carry piece is a Ruger LC9 with Federal P+ HST Hollow points. I practice sparingly with this ammo as the Ruger is not rated for daily practice with P+ rounds. However, for daily carry, it does the job. In gell tests with 4 layers of denim, the Federal HST 9mm P+ round have excellent penetration, almost perfect weight retention, and the expansion is so freaky perfect, the expanded bullet looks like a hi tech spider. I have no problem trusting my life to the LC9 loaded correctly.

With 380 auto ammo and larger calibers; it is shot placement + quality ammo that matter.

The real debate between .45ACP and 9mm are is not lethality, but what weapon platform suits you better, concealbility, and capacity.

9mm wins the capacity battle. The other two factors are up for debate and you can find shit loads of Internet forum pages dedicated to arguing over the stupid topic.


When I'm out at the range I carry my 1911.
When I'm out in the woods it's a S&W .44 mag
When at work in the corporate world it's my Ruger LC9
What would I carry in Shit it's the fan scenario? That is METT-T dependent, but I would probably in general carry a CZ 75 with if 9mm P+. If I was out of 9mm P+ rounds, I would carry my 1911 with ball or HP.

I prefer carrying cocked and locked, so I naturally gravitate towards the 1911 and the CZ75.

DARTH wrote: You sure about that? I've shot plenty of CZ's in my time and they certianly are not as big as a full 1911A1(The Commander is a compact, so on that your right for sure.) or a 92F. A Little beefier than a Hi-Power for sure but not by that much.

CZ lists the basic 75B @ 2.17#
The 75B SP-01 (rail and full-length dustcover) @ 2.4#

Springfield Loaded models come in around 40 oz, or 2.5#. Railed full-size 1911s add a couple of ounces to that.

A Beretta 92F is listed at 34oz, or the about the same as a basic 75B.

A commander-size 1911 doesn't lose a lot of weight, all dimensions are the same except you're chopping off 3/4 of an inch from the barrel and slide.

milosz wrote:

DARTH wrote: You sure about that? I've shot plenty of CZ's in my time and they certianly are not as big as a full 1911A1(The Commander is a compact, so on that your right for sure.) or a 92F. A Little beefier than a Hi-Power for sure but not by that much.

CZ lists the basic 75B @ 2.17#
The 75B SP-01 (rail and full-length dustcover) @ 2.4#

Springfield Loaded models come in around 40 oz, or 2.5#. Railed full-size 1911s add a couple of ounces to that.

A Beretta 92F is listed at 34oz, or the about the same as a basic 75B.

A commander-size 1911 doesn't lose a lot of weight, all dimensions are the same except you're chopping off 3/4 of an inch from the barrel and slide.

Darth,

Listen to milosz. The CZ 75 B is a full sized handgun that weighs a respectable 2.47 lbs unloaded. Considering a 1911 USGI weighs in at 2.44 lbs unloaded, I would say things are wash.

Ever laid hands on a Helwan? Clone of a Beretta M 1951 Brigadier, I think.



Friend carried one, was a remarkbly sound piece though it looked like the grips were made of bakelite from the 1930's. Shot well, consumed all manner of shit ammo and you wouldn't think twice about using it as a hammer.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Ever laid hands on a Helwan? Clone of a Beretta M 1951 Brigadier, I think.



Friend carried one, was a remarkbly sound piece though it looked like the grips were made of bakelite from the 1930's. Shot well, consumed all manner of shit ammo and you wouldn't think twice about using it as a hammer.

Back in the early 90's Helwan made an AK alot of the AK aficianados liked alot.

Back at the range when the caliber debte would go on yet again (like here) one of us would say "Not llike anyone want's to get nailed by any of those rounds."