Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

[Turdacious]

Grand jury indicts...the guy who filmed Eric Garner's chokehold death

This is the kind of overzealous prosecution that Spells thinks we should have more of.

[Pinky]

Oh But Wait....there's more...

Grand jury indicts...the guy who filmed Eric Garner's chokehold death

The guy with the camera made a critical mistake. He wasn't a cop.

[DARTH]

All the Ju Jutsu/Jits Heads know this;

Generally chokes are very humane and safe as long as you do not crush the trachea/oesophagus and the little bones there. Guy passes out, you stop, when he comes to he usually is in a foggy, non combative state. GENERALLY that is. Some do come to ready to fight and some people can't handle being choked physiologically.

This guy was a fat fuck, probably with high blood pressure. I see no reason for the cop to hang in this case. They guy would not comply, making the cop get hands on and his being a fried chicken stuffer contributed to his death.

Lots of departments wont let cops use chokes because so many cops fucked up in the past. That's what you get when hand to hand is taught in a few sessions. That is too bad as if they actually were made to train with some regularity, they'd have less need to tase or beat the fuck out of people.

I like chokes and cranks because the force continuum and options are right there. I can put you out nice if your just a punching threat in about 3 to 12 seconds or crush your throat on contact, let go at that point and watch you grab at your throat as you die or keep it on and destroy your cervical spine and kill you for sure.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Darth,

Last time I was on patrol was 19 years ago and we couldn't do chokes...that cop was probably still in underoos back then is at least how long 'no chokes' has been part of NYPD. Yes, the mope resisted, yes, it's clear he had some history with those guys, yes, he had to go. But yes, that was a very avoidable situation (again, based on that video, which was a pretty solid video).

[Grandpa's Spells]

You can't be surprised, given Spells has gone all out kook on this thread.

I think a panicky cop might well shoot an unarmed black kid and lie about it. It's one of only a few likely scenarios, so there should have been a public trial. I can't even find lawyers who aren't professional partisans who disagree. But if that's kooksville, fair enough. We have a couple cops' wives in our office who are completely baffled at why anybody would think anything but what Wilson claimed happened wasn't the truth.

I don't know how the grand jury result of the Staten Island case fits into your worldview, but this one is a lot more cut and dried "Cop kills unarmed black man and gets away with it." The Darths will still support the cop, and apparently a high percentage people in Staten Island (the cast of Jersey Shore was not from New Jersey), but this fits pretty neatly into how I see the LE/judicial/penal system treating black folks in racially tense places, and I thought that was bullshit until I lived in one.

That being said, I didn't think it was possible for a grand jury to not even indict. Ho. Lee. Shit.

[syaigh]

You can't be surprised, given Spells has gone all out kook on this thread.

I think a panicky cop might well shoot an unarmed black kid and lie about it. It's one of only a few likely scenarios, so there should have been a public trial. I can't even find lawyers who aren't professional partisans who disagree. But if that's kooksville, fair enough. We have a couple cops' wives in our office who are completely baffled at why anybody would think anything but what Wilson claimed happened wasn't the truth.

I don't know how the grand jury result of the Staten Island case fits into your worldview, but this one is a lot more cut and dried "Cop kills unarmed black man and gets away with it." The Darths will still support the cop, and apparently a high percentage people in Staten Island (the cast of Jersey Shore was not from New Jersey), but this fits pretty neatly into how I see the LE/judicial/penal system treating black folks in racially tense places, and I thought that was bullshit until I lived in one.

That being said, I didn't think it was possible for a grand jury to not even indict. Ho. Lee. Shit.

I agree, I was genuinely surprised. Illegal choke-hold, death was ruled a homicide. I'm kind of baffled really.

But, I did hear that there was some criticism that the district attourney took the approach of trying the whole case instead of just going for an indictment. Which was not normal procedure.

I'm a bleeding heart liberal and all, but did not expect an indictment in the Michigan case. In this case, I did.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

You can't be surprised, given Spells has gone all out kook on this thread.

I think a panicky cop might well shoot an unarmed black kid and lie about it. It's one of only a few likely scenarios, so there should have been a public trial. I can't even find lawyers who aren't professional partisans who disagree. But if that's kooksville, fair enough. We have a couple cops' wives in our office who are completely baffled at why anybody would think anything but what Wilson claimed happened wasn't the truth.

I don't know how the grand jury result of the Staten Island case fits into your worldview, but this one is a lot more cut and dried "Cop kills unarmed black man and gets away with it." The Darths will still support the cop, and apparently a high percentage people in Staten Island (the cast of Jersey Shore was not from New Jersey), but this fits pretty neatly into how I see the LE/judicial/penal system treating black folks in racially tense places, and I thought that was bullshit until I lived in one.

That being said, I didn't think it was possible for a grand jury to not even indict. Ho. Lee. Shit.

First paragraph: I think I said you had a guy (Wilson, the cop) who was either scared shitless or pissed off and I also said some things about his story don't really jive with me, right here on this thread. Regardless, he was *defending* himself and apparently a massive investigation done by state and Feds supported a story you or your cop's wives friends simply don't want to believe. But that's your emotions, not your evaluation of facts that were bore out after GJ were released. You like to say 'the white cop has it coming' they way some people say 'he's black so he's probably a criminal/up to no good/whatever'--you're recipe for your opinions on this thread is the same as the people you think are dead wrong, you're just using different ingredients to get a different flavor (see your 'stereotyping comment' on Jersey Shore above as one example).

Second paragraph: I'm surprised he was not indicted (but not for the choke itself, I don't think that is against the law, it's just against procedure). But I will say this: if that were a fat white piece of shit flailing around and resisting arrest, I do absolutely believe that cop would have acted the exact same way. It was a poorly handled situation and from what I can see, a wrongful death, but it's not a racially motivated one. And I too, know all about living and breathing in 'racially tense' situations.

[Protobuilder]

I think and hope that this Ferguson mess has created a tipping point. Non-Spells white people are becoming numb to knee-jerk charges of racism and many black people are seeing victimization for the Dead End that it is. (See Charles Barkley's comments.)

I was wondering why this case wasn't getting the attention that Martin and Brown. If the media feels that people won't be as outraged, they won't cover it unless protests turn violent.

Of course, Holder hasn't come in and said that the Justice Department will be investigating yet, has he?

[Herv100]

Yes , he has

[Protobuilder]

Yes , he has

I sort of think you are joking...but sort of know you probably aren't.

Has Obama commented that we have all sold cigarettes on the side from time to time and it could have been any of us?

[Protobuilder]

Yes , he has

I sort of think you are joking...but sort of know you probably aren't.

Has Obama commented that we have all sold cigarettes on the side from time to time and it could have been any of us?

Nevermind. That's actually the lead story on CNN as I type this.

[Shafpocalypse Now]

Meanwhile, 5432 white people have been raped, robbed, assaulted, threatened, or murdered by black people since that day in Fergeson.

[Shafpocalypse Now]

And 10000 black people have been raped, robbed, assaulted, threatened or murdered by other black people, often professional athletes.

[DARTH]

And 10000 black people have been raped, robbed, assaulted, threatened or murdered by other black people, often professional athletes.

[DARTH]

Darth,

Last time I was on patrol was 19 years ago and we couldn't do chokes...that cop was probably still in underoos back then is at least how long 'no chokes' has been part of NYPD. Yes, the mope resisted, yes, it's clear he had some history with those guys, yes, he had to go. But yes, that was a very avoidable situation (again, based on that video, which was a pretty solid video).

I know lots of cops can't for a long time. It's why former NY cop Sensei used to sometimes say "Time to work on "collisions" and "upper body restraints" useful for Law Enforcement."

Oh I think the situation could have been handled better but I can see no criminal charges being pressed as well.

I can see tossing the cop out of the force for getting caught doing one.

I can see a case foe a huge civil trial.

I do think cops should be allowed the option of choke holds and they should be very well trained in their application, what happens to someone choked and how to resuscitate people and have to refresh and re-evaluate their training.

[Grandpa's Spells]

Well, there's a lot here.

You can't be surprised, given Spells has gone all out kook on this thread.

I think a panicky cop might well shoot an unarmed black kid and lie about it. It's one of only a few likely scenarios, so there should have been a public trial. I can't even find lawyers who aren't professional partisans who disagree. But if that's kooksville, fair enough. We have a couple cops' wives in our office who are completely baffled at why anybody would think anything but what Wilson claimed happened wasn't the truth.

I don't know how the grand jury result of the Staten Island case fits into your worldview, but this one is a lot more cut and dried "Cop kills unarmed black man and gets away with it." The Darths will still support the cop, and apparently a high percentage people in Staten Island (the cast of Jersey Shore was not from New Jersey), but this fits pretty neatly into how I see the LE/judicial/penal system treating black folks in racially tense places, and I thought that was bullshit until I lived in one.

That being said, I didn't think it was possible for a grand jury to not even indict. Ho. Lee. Shit.

First paragraph: I think I said you had a guy (Wilson, the cop) who was either scared shitless or pissed off and I also said some things about his story don't really jive with me, right here on this thread.

Missed that. OK. Some might say credibility problems with the cop's story might increase the odds of an indictment, but the cop shouldn't have testified anyway.

Regardless, he was *defending* himself and apparently a massive investigation done by state and Feds supported a story you or your cop's wives friends simply don't want to believe.

Not sure if I was clear. The cops' wives believe Wilson was 100% justified and Brown was a thug and those poor police officers putting in all that OT.

But that's your emotions, not your evaluation of facts that were bore out after GJ were released.

This isn't true. GJ stuff came out, I thought, "Oh, contradicting witnesses. Never going to meet the unreasonable doubt standard." Then it turns out the prosecutor blatantly threw the case. There's no excuse for that. Criminal attorneys, defense or prosecutor, can't throw cases. Prosecutors throwing cases that involve cops is particularly outrageous, because they're already incentivized to do that.

You like to say 'the white cop has it coming' they way some people say 'he's black so he's probably a criminal/up to no good/whatever'--you're recipe for your opinions on this thread is the same as the people you think are dead wrong, you're just using different ingredients to get a different flavor (see your 'stereotyping comment' on Jersey Shore above as one example).

NFW. I never said a white cop had anything coming, and I wasn't unfairly representing the opinions of the people of Staten Island. Staten Island held the opposite opinion of the rest of NYC, and they just so happen to be a lot whiter than the rest of the city. If anything I was being unfair to the cast of Jersey Shore, who are specific people who may not hold the opinions of Staten Islanders generally. Edit: Eh, maybe this was still a cheap shot.

Second paragraph: I'm surprised he was not indicted (but not for the choke itself, I don't think that is against the law, it's just against procedure). But I will say this: if that were a fat white piece of shit flailing around and resisting arrest, I do absolutely believe that cop would have acted the exact same way. It was a poorly handled situation and from what I can see, a wrongful death, but it's not a racially motivated one. And I too, know all about living and breathing in 'racially tense' situations.

I also think a cop could have initially reacted the same way to a white suspect (the second video of them ignoring the body, I'm not as sure). I have a hard time imagining there not being a trial.

People don't protest when the system is working as it should. When that cop shoots a driver in Carolina for getting his license, and the system responds appropriately, there's much less of an escalation.

[dead man walking]

"Nobody unarmed should die on a New York City street corner for suspected low-level offenses."

Senator Kirsten E. Gillibrand, Democrat of New York, after a grand jury voted not to bring criminal charges against a police officer in the death of Eric Garner.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

But that's your emotions, not your evaluation of facts that were bore out after GJ were released.

This isn't true. GJ stuff came out, I thought, "Oh, contradicting witnesses. Never going to meet the unreasonable doubt standard." Then it turns out the prosecutor blatantly threw the case. There's no excuse for that. Criminal attorneys, defense or prosecutor, can't throw cases. Prosecutors throwing cases that involve cops is particularly outrageous, because they're already incentivized to do that.

You like to say 'the white cop has it coming' they way some people say 'he's black so he's probably a criminal/up to no good/whatever'--you're recipe for your opinions on this thread is the same as the people you think are dead wrong, you're just using different ingredients to get a different flavor (see your 'stereotyping comment' on Jersey Shore above as one example).

NFW. I never said a white cop had anything coming, and I wasn't unfairly representing the opinions of the people of Staten Island. Staten Island held the opposite opinion of the rest of NYC, and they just so happen to be a lot whiter than the rest of the city. If anything I was being unfair to the cast of Jersey Shore, who are specific people who may not hold the opinions of Staten Islanders generally. Edit: Eh, maybe this was still a cheap shot.

Here's where I was referencing your emotions vs. facts of the Ferguson event. I suspect we agree more than disagree on the NYC event. Last word's all yours on this one.

Punk tried to prevent the cop from getting out and attacked the cop ANYONE does that, they stand a great chance of eating a bullet, even more so if your a near 300# suspect in a violent crime.

Nobody but the cop says that. White and black witnesses say he killed Brown at a distance while Brown was clearly surrendering.

That DA got fairly granular during the announcement. Apparently, the witness accounts were conflicted enough to keep the GJ from indicting on any charge...he even went as far as stating that black witnesses testified he was charging. Frankly, IMO, it must have been pretty obvious that was the case for them to not come back with anything. It's not that he shot at Brown, it's the number of shots at Brown in that situation that I can't get my head around.

It's hard for me to separate my experience with the cops in St. Louis, who were openly racist in the late 90's. People wonder why there weren't more black folks looking to join that force, but I don't.

I can appreciate that black residents in the neighborhood might testify incorrectly or falsely. The white contractors who were filmed visibly angry at the scene seemed completely credible.

Given that unjust shootings of unarmed black men by white cops is not exactly unheard of, and the witnesses involved, it seemed like it was at least a likely scenario here. Non-LE people rushing to the cop's defense seemed, in nearly every case, to just-so-happen-to also hate black people.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Darth,

Last time I was on patrol was 19 years ago and we couldn't do chokes...that cop was probably still in underoos back then is at least how long 'no chokes' has been part of NYPD. Yes, the mope resisted, yes, it's clear he had some history with those guys, yes, he had to go. But yes, that was a very avoidable situation (again, based on that video, which was a pretty solid video).

I know lots of cops can't for a long time. It's why former NY cop Sensei used to sometimes say "Time to work on "collisions" and "upper body restraints" useful for Law Enforcement."

Oh I think the situation could have been handled better but I can see no criminal charges being pressed as well.

I can see tossing the cop out of the force for getting caught doing one.

I can see a case foe a huge civil trial.

I do think cops should be allowed the option of choke holds and they should be very well trained in their application, what happens to someone choked and how to resuscitate people and have to refresh and re-evaluate their training.

Rear cuffing is SOP for NYPD and rear cuffing passive big guys is hard, rear cuffing resisting little guys is harder, rear cuffing resisting big guys is by far, hardest. It looks like they made their move to cuff him once back-up arrived (which was smart), but still, that went down badly. After a couple of seconds down, the resisting by the perp (from what I can tell) ceased. I think the fat cop saw what was happening and was trying to 'do the right thing' and it looks like he's trying to get the other cop off of the perp's skull/using body language and signals to tell the plain clothes cop to back-off.

Monday morning QB'ing here, but that hoss could have been controlled via grabbing his pants at the small of his back and foot pressure to buckle the knee....big homie go down and make boom! No choke and once he's down, a guy like that is not going to resist. You MA guys might have much better ideas....

The patrol supervisor on scene (female Sgt) was utterly useless--she's cooked too.

[Batboy2/75]

Racism didn't kill that guy in NY. New York cigarette laws and bad police tactics did.

[Andy83]

All white cops should resign. Let the niggers take over. Let Al Sharpton be prezzidant.

[Blaidd Drwg]

And 10000 black people have been raped, robbed, assaulted, threatened or murdered by other black people, often professional athletes.

ooof...that's a direct hit. :)

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

And 10000 black people have been raped, robbed, assaulted, threatened or murdered by other black people, often professional athletes.

ooof...that's a direct hit. :)

LOL! I missed that.

[Turdacious]

Racism didn't kill that guy in NY. New York cigarette laws and bad police tactics did.

Somebody should start a 36 page thread talking about improper behavior by law enforcement types.

[Blaidd Drwg]

Racism didn't kill that guy in NY. New York cigarette laws and bad police tactics did.

Somebody should start a 36 page thread talking about improper behavior by law enforcement types.

TBF...Drath did raise a point on FB (and probably here) that what ultimately got that cat was the fact he was a great big fat person and a lot more suceptible to a heart attack or breathing problems than the avg. person. Now...the fact he was a GBFP is readily apparent to anyone, and a reasonable LEO would have tried to De-escalate the situation once the chap was on the ground. Still, it's a solid point that there were a series of lapses in judgement here, few of which seem related to his race other than 400 pound black men selling shit on corners tend to draw the attention of LE...for whatever reason.