Obama on Charleston Black Church Murders

[Grandpa's Spells]

Speaking of politically despicable...

Fox & Rick Santorum going through mental somersaults to make this appear like a possible attack on Christians.
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/06/larry-w ... d-explode/

Why the hell would you attempt to frame this as anything other than a racial attack? Who does Fox risk alienating? There is no "Pro shooting up black church" crowd to speak of.

[Blaidd Drwg]

Speaking of politically despicable...

Fox & Rick Santorum going through mental somersaults to make this appear like a possible attack on Christians.
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/06/larry-w ... d-explode/

Why the hell would you attempt to frame this as anything other than a racial attack? Who does Fox risk alienating? There is no "Pro shooting up black church" crowd to speak of.

No offense to religious asshats here and otherwheres.....but self identifying "Christians under fire" are the hands down most despicably stupid mainstream lobbying force in the US today.

[bennyonesix]

"Weapon choice" is a fascinating subject...

Hardly anyone stabs a stranger and hardly anyone stabs someone one or two times... If your ass gets stabbed to death it is by a close family member or an utter psycho and you got stabbed like 1234567 times.

Stranger killings, which is what we are talking about here I think, are gun or bomb or fire things...

And I reckon I got to be the one to say it, but eliminating guns reduces gun crime (duh) but it does not reduce crime or violent crime...

That's why to me, for the Left, the gun issue in the US is either misdirection or powerful psychological repression....

[Grandpa's Spells]

And I reckon I got to be the one to say it, but eliminating guns reduces gun crime (duh) but it does not reduce crime or violent crime...

Australia put in heavy firearm ownership restrictions, murders-by-gun went down, and murders-without-a-gun did not go up by the same amount. Edit: to spell this out, it reduced murders.

What makes the US different? You're making a firm assertion with nothing backing it up.

[Blaidd Drwg]

Guns obfuscate the more interesting question about why, for an English speaking 1st world nation, are we are so fucking violent? Why OTOH is the UK so much more violent still? They have strict gun control and yet have freakishly high levels of violence



Our own internal narrative is that America is a bunch of soft cunts but when it comes right down to it, we really do seem to enjoy fucking a mother fucker up now and a gain.

[bennyonesix]

Guns obfuscate the more interesting question about why, for an English speaking 1st world nation, are we are so fucking violent? Why OTOH is the UK so much more violent still? They have strict gun control and yet have freakishly high levels of violence



Our own internal narrative is that America is a bunch of soft cunts but when it comes right down to it, we really do seem to enjoy fucking a mother fucker up now and a gain.

US civil war lulz

That is a recently self-imposed description and not one shared by any of our enemies.

[bennyonesix]

And I reckon I got to be the one to say it, but eliminating guns reduces gun crime (duh) but it does not reduce crime or violent crime...

Australia put in heavy firearm ownership restrictions, murders-by-gun went down, and murders-without-a-gun did not go up by the same amount. Edit: to spell this out, it reduced murders.

What makes the US different? You're making a firm assertion with nothing backing it up.

Are you talking about the buybacks in 1996 and 1997 that were instituted as a response to a mass shooting?

[Blaidd Drwg]

That is a recently self-imposed description and not one shared by any of our enemies.

I don't disagree.

Why this disconnect in how the world sees us and how we portray ourselves (America is getting soft, when I was a kid, fucking kids thees days are pussies...) ?...When in fact we have an all volunteer standing military that is among the best most disciplined that has ever existed. Even pampered urban 12 year old's like my boy can throw a guillotine choke on a grown man...these same kids that have maybe ever been in one school yard fight have better situational awareness in public than most adults I know.

The reality is, US culture does seem to breed some bad motherfuckers...in general. We talk about ourselves as if we're soft and helpless when faced with third world shit holes when if fact, we routinely pack up our best and brightest, go to those places and lay fuckin waste to them. That has to be an underlying prerequisite for feeling comfortable with violence.

[bennyonesix]

The Australia thing is a red-herring and not really useful. It also mostly shows how wrong the Left is on the issue...

But, I will stipulate that if all the pistols in the US were eliminated there would be fewer murders. But that is because no young black dudes would be armed with pistols. The same reduction in murders would occur if all the young black dudes went on a trip for a year.

In the US, violent crime is a young black and hispanic male problem.

[Grandpa's Spells]

The Australia undercuts my argument and I have no response. So I'll dismiss it without explanation...

[Blaidd Drwg]

The Australia undercuts my argument and I have no response. So I'll dismiss it without explanation...

Lead by example and explain the UK...

[bennyonesix]

The Australia undercuts my argument and I have no response. So I'll dismiss it without explanation...

You need to read what I wrote after that. I did not dodge anything. I stipulated that taking away all handguns from the US would reduce murders in the US. So, what did I dodge?

But since you think it is useful... I will tell you why I think it is not...

Let's be clear about a few things first. Australia is racially and ethnically and culturally homogeneous. I assert that this renders it useless in comparisons with the US.

It is incredibly similar to another country: NZ. NZ is armed to the fucking teeth. NZ has fewer mass shootings. NZ is better in all categories than AUS except gun crime rate. Thus, NZ has fewer intentional homicides etc... Here are the stats: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... land/Crime

Also, AUS did not see a sig reduction in homicides until 8 years after the buybacks:



Additionally, gun ownership in AUS quickly returned to pre-buyback status (prior to the decrease in homicides).

Also, the homicide rate in AUS had been in decline for years prior to the buyback and in fact plateaued after the buyback and only recommenced 8 years later...

Also, prior to and during the subject reduction in homicides, AUS dramatically increased its police force.

This is from factcheck.org:

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/gun-co ... australia/

Some scholars even credit the 1996 gun law with causing the decrease in deaths from firearms, though they are still debating that point. A 2003 study from AIC, which looked at rates between 1991 and 2001, found that some of the decline in firearm-related homicides (and suicides as well) began before the reform was enacted. On the other hand, a 2006 analysis by scholars at the University of Sydney concluded that gun fatalities decreased more quickly after the reform. Yet another analysis, from 2008, from the University of Melbourne, concluded that the buyback had no significant effect on firearm suicide or homicide rates.

So there’s no consensus about whether the changes decreased gun violence or had little to no effect.

So, tl;dr the AUS experience does not show that a reduction in guns produces a reduction in either gun homicides or homicides in general.

That is why I didn't want to discuss it.

I do try to keep things on track and that is why I tried to address your essential point which was: taking away guns in the US will reduce gun homicides and homicides in general.

If you still think I was dodging you need to explain how because I don't see it.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

And I reckon I got to be the one to say it, but eliminating guns reduces gun crime (duh) but it does not reduce crime or violent crime...

Australia put in heavy firearm ownership restrictions, murders-by-gun went down, and murders-without-a-gun did not go up by the same amount. Edit: to spell this out, it reduced murders.

What makes the US different? You're making a firm assertion with nothing backing it up.

Do you really need us to spell that out for you?

[Grandpa's Spells]

The Australia undercuts my argument and I have no response. So I'll dismiss it without explanation...

Lead by example and explain the UK...

I don't know what you're talking about. London is incredibly safe. Scotland had violence as practically a sport, and it's dropped precipitously.

I looked up murder rates by country, and the UK ranks 176, just below Sweden.

If you're talking about a specific event or stat, do tell.

[Blaidd Drwg]

The Australia undercuts my argument and I have no response. So I'll dismiss it without explanation...

Lead by example and explain the UK...

I don't know what you're talking about. London is incredibly safe. Scotland had violence as practically a sport, and it's dropped precipitously.

I looked up murder rates by country, and the UK ranks 176, just below Sweden.

If you're talking about a specific event or stat, do tell.

* In 1920, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess any firearm except a shotgun. To obtain this certificate, the applicant had to pay a fee, and the chief of police had to be "satisfied" that the applicant had "good reason for requiring such a certificate" and did not pose a "danger to the public safety or to the peace." The certificate had to specify the types and quantities of firearms and ammunition that the applicant could purchase and keep.[38]



* In 1968, Britain made the 1920 law stricter by requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess a shotgun. This law also required that firearm certificates specify the identification numbers ("if known") of all firearms and shotguns owned by the applicant.[39]



* In 1997, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to surrender almost all privately owned handguns to the police. More than 162,000 handguns and 1.5 million pounds of ammunition were "compulsorily surrendered" by February 1998. Using "records of firearms held on firearms certificates," police accounted for all but fewer than eight of all legally owned handguns in England, Scotland, and Wales.[40]



Homicides Reported By Police in England and Wales

* Years are calendar years prior to 1998 and fiscal years (April 1 - March 31) thereafter.
† Homicide data is published according to the years in which the police initially reported the offenses as homicides, which are not always the same years in which the incidents took place.

‡ Large anomalies unrelated to guns:

• 2000: 58 Chinese people suffocated to death in a shipping container en route to the UK

• 2002: 172 homicides reported when Dr. Harold Shipman was exposed for killing his patients

• 2003: 20 cockle pickers drowned resulting in manslaughter charges

• 2005: 52 people killed in the July 7th London subway/bus bombings

[41]



* Not counting the above-listed anomalies, the homicide rate in England and Wales has averaged 52% higher since the outset of the 1968 gun control law and 15% higher since the outset of the 1997 handgun ban.[42]




The figures were sourced from Eurostat, the European Commission's database of statistics. They are gathered using official sources in the countries concerned such as the national statistics office, the national prison administration, ministries of the interior or justice, and police.

A breakdown of the statistics, which were compiled into league tables by the Conservatives, revealed that violent crime in the UK had increased from 652,974 offences in 1998 to more than 1.15 million crimes in 2007.

It means there are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the UK, making it the most violent place in Europe.

Austria is second, with a rate of 1,677 per 100,000 people, followed by Sweden, Belgium, Finland and Holland.


France recorded 324,765 violent crimes in 2007 – a 67 per cent increase in the past decade – at a rate of 504 per 100,000 population.

[bennyonesix]

And I reckon I got to be the one to say it, but eliminating guns reduces gun crime (duh) but it does not reduce crime or violent crime...

Australia put in heavy firearm ownership restrictions, murders-by-gun went down, and murders-without-a-gun did not go up by the same amount. Edit: to spell this out, it reduced murders.

What makes the US different? You're making a firm assertion with nothing backing it up.

Do you really need us to spell that out for you?

This is why I think the Left is either totally disingenuous or cosmically repressed.

The best light I can put their position in is: no guns because blacks but blacks are the way they are because racism so it is really white males fault CHICKENS COMING HOME TO ROOST>>>>

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

B16, Mike Brown, got a fucking plaque embedded on the sidewalk in the vicinity of his demise. A fucking low life, piece of shit, felon got a plaque celebrating his life, paid for by the city. And there are people who not only think this is no big deal, but that it's right. What kind of fucking shit is that other than a kick in the teeth to not only cops, but all those black residents who would never dream of punching a little shopkeeper repeatedly to boost some philly blunts on a summer morning.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2230123

[bennyonesix]

It's all false but true.

[Grandpa's Spells]

BD, nothing looked weird when you sourced that graph? That it had two gun laws on it and cut off 8 years ago? Like maybe somebody with a bias was cherry-picking?

Here ya go:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... allen.html

[Protobuilder]

Calm down. Nothing is being done related to gun control and even the politicians proposing it know that.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/the- ... gislation/

Besides, it appears that people have now decided that the Confederate flag is the real culprit and must be b&.

[The Ginger Beard Man]

QOTD: "The only Confederate flag that matters is the white flag of surrender."

[Blaidd Drwg]

BD, nothing looked weird when you sourced that graph? That it had two gun laws on it and cut off 8 years ago? Like maybe somebody with a bias was cherry-picking?

Here ya go:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... allen.html

Uhhhhhh...So I'm to believe that the drop in the homidice rate shown in your graph is the result of ?????? What?



Or maybe as the economy trended upward in the US earlier than the UK...you see a corresponding drop in the overall homicide rate..regardless of the legislative environment WRT guns.

Violent Crime while higher in the UK still trends generally downward as the economy has improved. So..your graph shows nothing at all WRT gun control.

Cause You'll note a correspondingly precipitous drop in the homicide rate for the US.

[bennyonesix]

QOTD: "The only Confederate flag that matters is the white flag of surrender."

Fuck the delusional and murderously incompetent Lincoln

Fuck the "honorable" and "idealistic" Lee

Fuck The Unionists and Fuck The Confederates

Worst period of our history.

Especially fuck Lincoln.

[Kazuya Mishima]

These poor peoples' bodies.....A time to lean on each other and somehow make it through?

Have I stepped through the rabbit hole into some alternate dimension, or has someone hacked Kaz's account?

Meh...it's a horrible tragedy. My distaste for black culture and behavior doesn't preclude me from feeling sympathy when something like this happens to innocent people. These weren't ghetto thugs gunned down in a drug deal gone wrong. Innocent church goers targeted by a lonely loser...very sad.

[Protobuilder]

I usually never say this but screw statistics on murders, gun ownership and whatever happens in various countries.

The fact is that there are 300m+ guns in the United States in the hands of private citizens. Nobody is going to come and take your guns and any person who spouts such nonsense about it being a good idea is talking through their ass. Though I have no doubt that things like this shooting be less likely if the US didn't have so damn many guns I see no way of this ever realistically happening.