primary school shooting

[Thatcher II]

I'm curious to know what you Americans think the reason is for the USA being the king of gun deaths. Obviously guns are just pieces of metal so banning them or not is irrelevant.

Is your society sicker than others? I really don't know what to think.

One thing I will say is, if you take this forum for example, you lot are always talking about guns. The rest of us never do unless something like this event crops up.

I can't for the life of me grasp why a middle aged, female elementary school teacher would want/need three guns. One maybe for self protection, but three?

It's definitely sick in some regards. We have a huge violent uneducated underclass. We also have some crazy people with shitty mental health care. And, we're a very large country and guns are accessible.

Every country has a mythology. Ours is rooted in independence, resistance to government oppression, and self sacrifice. The Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights are our touchstones. It's been reinforced by our experiences in WW1, WW2, the multiple wars against communism, and the WOT. Our symbols are the Minutemen and the armed pioneers who won the west.

Many of us believe an unarmed populace is a populace ripe for slavery (see BatBoy's comments). Tyrants throughout history disarm people and we hate tyrants. Yet, there are an increasing number of people in this country who want to be like Europe with your taxes, regulations, and gov't controls of the people. Included in that group are people who want us totally disarmed.

To many Americans, guns are America as much as the flag, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights because they assure the rights ascribed therein. Many people consider that ridiculous bullshit but tens of millions don't and will passionately raise all kinds of hell to protect those rights as they understand them. Guns and abortion are two things that dig so deeply into our psyches that it's almost impossible to have rational conversations about them because the lines are clear and bold before the conversation even begins.

Hence, we get into gun control arguments before we've buried a single one of those poor little angels. That may be one of the greater societal sicknesses on display right now.

That's one of the best posts by someone other than me in the history of this shitty backwater site.

I disagree that it's sick to look at the issue of how to prevent this now. There is a morbid and indulgent media fascination with wringing the last drop of sorrow out of these events that whips up hysteria. For a completely fucked up example look at the Princess Diana shit here in 1997. Those affected directly are devastated beyond words. The rest of us are affected but need to keep our shit together and look at trying to stop this horror from ever happening again. Whether that's security, mental health, gun control or whatever, there's zero shame in looking at it now. In fact, it's the only rational thing to do by a sentient moral person in the face of such horror. Someone like BD posting that I "don't give 2 fux" because I ask these questions is what is sick here.

[TerryB]

Start another post with what you believe My beliefs are and I'll be more than happy to engage you there latter on today.

I couldn't care less what you think except to say that people with paranoid, right-wing views seem more likely to be the ones hoarding weapons and occasionally hurting people en masse. Maybe that type of paranoia is a contributing factor and should be examined as something other than noble patriotism.

If that's not you, don't get all butt hurt over it.

[tough old man]

This is a AMERIKA...we have to blame someone right away so that we can ban something and feel better before the Christmas shopping season is totally wasted.

I would be truly sad if that was the case

[Blaidd Drwg]

Gorbs,


If it's such an awful place, and you care so deeply, why do you continue to troll here?
Now, you may argue that you are quite broken up about this tragedy, this is almost believable...but it's unlikely to be the case or you wouldn't have given in to lecturing right off the bat and,...there is NFW you would have compared this tragedy to a defrocked princess dying in a car crash.

[Thatcher II]

We'll never know, but I wonder if the heroic teacher that hid her kids in a closet would have wanted a gun when she was standing in front the door and waiting for the evil fuck murder to walk into her room? I wonder if the other teachers who heard the screams of children at the school, wished they had a gun.

A shotgun in every classroom! What could go wrong.

if you don't have the goddamn common sense to protect at least yourself, you deserve nothing but chains. If you don't have enough of a soul to defend the innocent being slaughtered, you are a coward and definitely deserve the chains of slavery.

Yes because that is what this is all about: stupid, soulless cowards who don't care about kids vs. the hero's with double Glocks on their hips, shotguns bolted under their desk, and tears in their eyes as they protect the innocent. Get a fucking grip.

See DrDonkey's post re myths. Seriously. The "frontiersman" myth is powerful stuff. If you're drinking that koolaid you aren't really open to those who wish to order society differently because they basically want to "put everyone in chains" etc. This one ideological straightjacket more than any other sets America apart from all other industrialised nations. It infects thinking on global warming (taking freedom under false pretences), guns (putting us in chains), taxes (stealing from us) and nearly everything else. Europeans fear themselves after the Nazis and police themselves now very closely. Mostly. They have no problem with taxes that result in less inequality of living standards, cleaner fuels, carbon curbs and no guns. Because societies rise and fall on the collective. Not a random woodsman and his musket. We agitate for change when required. We have not ceded power to vested interests and PACs. Our system is still shit in many ways but we buy into more than a skeleton of "freedom to do what you want".

[Thatcher II]

Gorbs,


If it's such an awful place, and you care so deeply, why do you continue to troll here?
Now, you may argue that you are quite broken up about this tragedy, this is almost believable...but it's unlikely to be the case or you wouldn't have given in to lecturing right off the bat and,...there is NFW you would have compared this tragedy to a defrocked princess dying in a car crash.

Seriously, BD, you seem like a nice guy and everything but your need to be right on everything is leading you to say wildly offensive stuff here that is simply not defensible. I whole-heatedly disagree with you on many issues including gun control. But I am not going to debase myself by questioning that you could see a school massacre like this and "not give 2 fux".

The Diana reference was explicitly a reference to an example of a fucked up media reaction and consequent public reaction. It was not a comparison of the two underlying events. Nor was it close. Read it again.

Arguments are fine within certain parameters of civil behaviour and you're outside that. Maybe, instead of trying to "win", you can accept that you went too far in the heat of the moment. Or maybe you don't think that. Either way, in the face of someone expressly telling you that yes, they are affected by a mass murder of children, you should back up the truck.

[Blaidd Drwg]

Ok. I can accept that.

I've not found your rhetoric believable on nearly any front in recent memory but these are unique circumstances.

Fair question..no baiting. What about this makes it seem timely to lecture Americans on an issue you know to be as divisive as any? Is this the way you think it will really go down, American's will buy into effective gun control based on the same arguments that worked in Europe?

[syaigh]

This is a AMERIKA...we have to blame someone right away so that we can ban something and feel better before the Christmas shopping season is totally wasted.

I would be truly sad if that was the case

Nothing is going to make me feel better about this.

[Shafpocalypse Now]

Nope. This is fucked with a capital F. And I can't stop imagining how I'd eat a bullet to end my pain if my beautiful kindergartener was executed by a scumbag madman.

[Thatcher II]

Ok. I can accept that.

I've not found your rhetoric believable on nearly any front in recent memory but these are unique circumstances.

Fair question..no baiting. What about this makes it seem timely to lecture Americans on an issue you know to be as divisive as any? Is this the way you think it will really go down, American's will buy into effective gun control based on the same arguments that worked in Europe?

I see what happens - the cinema, Columbine, Hungerford, Dunblane, Norway.... I have a reaction. It's strong. You're getting this wrong and children are dying and will die as a result. It's like you're in a fucking matrix on this. Fuck that it's divisive. It needs to be looked at. I've heard a lot of people say they're glad they don't live in America and won't visit, in just the last few days. People here cannot fathom your perceived need to own lethal weapons where the reality is that government can lock you up anyway. Your defense to tyranny is YOUR system. But you all see it as someone else's. So Washington is far away and someone else's business provided you have a gun. Criminals will have guns so you need them. Yeah they have them. Of course if they could be arrested for having them, things might look very different. There are other ways of approaching this. Shutting me down and looking to make me out to be a monster is not a great response. The gun lobby is in a tiny minority of those living in the Western world. It should be reminded of this important fact.

[Andy83]

Gorby. If that good looking young principalette had a gun when she ran out in the hall, instead of trying to plead and reason with that little withdrawn bright nerdy evil bastard, she could have put a shot between his eyes. she'd still be alive and so would a lot of the others.
Try to stop preaching. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[tough old man]

Keep in mind that Gorbachev and his country have already dealt with a very similar tragedy.
His perspective is a little different as are the solutions they implemented.
http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7mpJ ... e_massacre

[Blaidd Drwg]

Setting aside the fact there may be much to agree on, you did not answer the question, Gorbs

What makes you think it's timely for (let's generalize) the"western world" to lecture the US...other than moral outrage? Does anyone think that is going to be compelling? result in meaningful new ideas?

But the more important question, do you think this is how it will go down? American Culture will spin on it's axis and embrace the government which we inherently distrust? I'm not sure many western countries trust the US Federal government.

[buckethead]

Seriously Gorby, it's been five months since the last horrific mass gunstrocity. Given an acceptable time for not discussing it and the holiday season, you could have easily squeezed in your views on gun control somewhere between October 14th and November 1st . Shit, except we had a presidential election going on so it might have been too divisive. I guess just keep your mouth shut, slave.

[Blaidd Drwg]

just keep your mouth shut, slave.

That comment goes well outside the parameters of civil discourse we've come to love about this place.
And dude, slave is not the preferred nomenclature,
Indentured Servant, please.

[Grandpa's Spells]

How is Afghanistan going for our 24hour military? How in the hell are the Syrians getting their asses kicked?

Indeed. It's pretty apparent an insurgency can function extremely well without AR/AK weapons. It's about bombs and pot shots. Every time a bunch of guys get together with their AKs to make a stand against trained US infantry, they are slaughtered.

[Lewis Medlock]

I was out Christmas shopping Saturday and ended up meeting a friend out for lunch. This is all she could talk about. So to change the subject I ask her what presents she had bought. She started to tell me about this gorie violent video game for her 11 year old nephew. I do not get it, how many people who are worked up over this on fb and other places are going to be giving out the same kind of gifts?

[Gav]

Lewis, don't be stupid. How many of us got boxing gloves and toy guns for Xmas? They were the 'Call of Duty' of our times and none of us grew up to be psychos, apart from Darth and Batboy, of coarse.

[Batboy2/75]

How is Afghanistan going for our 24hour military? How in the hell are the Syrians getting their asses kicked?

Afghanistan, where we parachuted in and overthrew the Taliban in about a month, plinking the shit out of them the whole way? The reason Afghanistan sucks now is Pakistan and safe sanctuary. You'll have to depend on Canada. And speaking of which outside help, you think it is the Syrian's privately owned weapons, to include MANPADs, that are allowing them to fight Assad to a draw? Nothing to do with weapons coming in from Iran and Libya?

Read up on Siimo Hahya. A 5'5" Finnish woodsman killed over 500 soviet butchers during the winter war and tied up at least a soviet regiment trying to kill him. All armed with? A 5 shot bolt action rifle designed and fielded in 1891.

The Winter War was an army on army war. Siimo was a member of the Army, using an Army-issued weapon.

The first shots of the Revolution was private gun owners, using their privately owned weapons to kill red coats. The various states raided English depots, started mufacturing arms, and procuring arms oversees. The raid on Fort Ticonderoga main purpose was to acquire heavy cannons. The colonialist small arms gave them the breathing room to acquire heavier arms via trade, manufacture and theft.

Instead of starting at ground zero, like the Syrians. I prefer my semi auto rifle, that can become a full auto in about an hours worth of time, using basic tools avialble anywhere in the USA. This allows me the tools to steal what I can from the central government to even the odds. So your arguement holds no water. Arms allow me to resist, acquire more arms, and even better arms. Even then, my goal would not be fight battles with the central government, but to fight and win the propaganda battle with the government.

I get to hide amoungst the populace, wear no uniform, and get to engage Government forces at will. How is the Government going to target people like me if they can't currently handle drug distributors? Their only answer is more oppression. I do not have to win battles, just the propaganda war.

You have no idea how weapons are manufactured and procured around the world. People always line up to sell arms to both sides of a civil war. Fuck Canada, weapons will stream over the southern border and via boat to our shores. What we can't purchase can be stolen or even manuafactured. Do you seriously think, Russian and Chinese criminal elements and even government fficials are going to turn their noses up at the chance of money? Do you think no one is going to raid State armories, or that sympathetic military members won't steal arms?

Hows is Mexico and Canada going to react when your fly boys bomb Vancouver Canada or Tecate Mexico, trying to target American Insergents? You opperate under this delusion the USA operates in a political and military vacuume. Fuck, how are the American people going to react when some fly boy drops a 500 pound JDAM in downtown Bose? Not very well.

***Note to federal authorities, ths is conjecture only. A mental exercise in what if? Nothing more!, nothing less. I would never advocate doing anything I have listed. Plus, converting semiautos to full auto is a crime; I would never advocate or share how to do this.

[Batboy2/75]

How is Afghanistan going for our 24hour military? How in the hell are the Syrians getting their asses kicked?

Indeed. It's pretty apparent an insurgency can function extremely well without AR/AK weapons. It's about bombs and pot shots. Every time a bunch of guys get together with their AKs to make a stand against trained US infantry, they are slaughtered.

Nor do you have to win all of the battles or any battles to win. Winning the propaganda war is more important in an insurgency.

If the USA was to spin into a Civil war scenario: the war Between the Sates and the Balkans are your guide. Things would be no where as lopsided as they are in Afghanistan. This isn't a good thing. It would be a blood fest of the first order.

[nafod]

Lewis, don't be stupid. How many of us got boxing gloves and toy guns for Xmas? They were the 'Call of Duty' of our times and none of us grew up to be psychos, apart from Darth and Batboy, of coarse.

A source for informed articles...

http://www.killology.com/article_teachkid.htm

How the military increases the killing rate of soldiers in combat is instructive, because our culture today is doing the same thing to our children. The training methods militaries use are brutalization, classical conditioning, operant conditioning, and role modeling. I will explain these in the military context and show how these same factors are contributing to the phenomenal increase of violence in our culture.

and

On June 10th, 1992, the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) published a definitive study on the impact of TV violence. In nations, regions, or cities where television appears there is an immediate explosion of violence on the playground, and within 15 years there is a doubling of the murder rate. Why 15 years? That's how long it takes for a brutalized toddler to reach the “prime crime” years. That's how long it takes before you begin to reap what you sow when you traumatize and desensitize children. (Centerwall, 1992).

The JAMA concluded that, “the introduction of television in the 1950’s caused a subsequent doubling of the homicide rate, i.e., long-term childhood exposure to television is a causal factor behind approximately one half of the homicides committed in the United States, or approximately 10,000 homicides annually.” The study went on to state that “...if, hypothetically, television technology had never been developed, there would today be 10,000 fewer homicides each year in the United states, 70,000 fewer rapes, and 700,000 fewer injurious assaults” (Centerwall, 1992).

Today the data linking violence in the media to violence in society is superior to that linking cancer and tobacco.

[syaigh]

Your original statement about my proposal rest upon three fallacies

1- I want all teachers armed
2- I want to force teachers to be armed
3- That I believe ANY solution is 100% fail safe

My statement rests on nothing other than what you said:

If one or two teachers had a gun on them, they just may have saved some people. But God no, guns are evil! Better to declare schools "Gun Free" zones, trust in locked doors and hope he cops get there in time.

Gun Free Zones= death trap.

You want to protect children at schools? Arm he staff and teachers.

I disagree that teachers, one, some, or all, should be armed and charged with that responsibility, voluntarily or not.

As far as owning heavy weaponry is concerned, to me its the same as owning a vicious dog. If you want that kind of firepower, be responsible or anything that happens is your responsibility. It can't be just a "I can do whatever the fuck I want and own dangerous things" world. Everyone gets up in arms when a vicious (probably beaten and starved or trained to kill) dog escapes and kills or maims a child. And the owners are usually held responsible. Why should gun owners be any different? If I decide to build a massive bomb on my property, should my neighbors have a say? If I leave a bunch of AK-47s laying around my property in plain sight and someone uses them to kill a school full of children, am I not responsible?

The kid had no problem unloading and reloading that gun. For hundreds of rounds. And apparently had quite the stockpile of ammunition. He had access and knowledge of how to use that gun. Incredibly irresponsible on mom's part. I stand by that judgement.

With great power comes great responsibility. Too many people want the rights without taking the responsibility.

[Grandpa's Spells]

With great power comes great responsibility. Too many people want the rights without taking the responsibility.

I am fucking gobsmacked that the mother had a troubled son at home with unlocked weapons. Perhaps he somehow circumvented some kind of security system, but of all the shit that the media's reporting, what precautions were in place certainly should be of some interest.

My father in law has 10+ firearms, including an AR and an AK, but he's got a fucking safe, too.

[TerryB]

Do we know whether she had them locked up?

Anyway:

Police say a member of Adam’s family – probably his brother – has told them he suffered from Asperger’s Syndrome, a form of autism.

Experts have insisted the condition, while prompting the sufferer to withdraw into his own world, would not be responsible on its own for making him go on a homicidal spree.
That said, the experts note that if he had mental problems, these, combined with years of social isolation, inadequacy and the easy availability of an arsenal of firearms, could have been a recipe for disaster.

Well, maybe you're right Syaigh.

[Bobby]

Here is a pic of the finish sniper nafod wrote about.Note jaw deformed by a russian bullet.