Occupy Wall Street

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

dead man walking wrote:http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... ll-street/

if you're inclined to be serious for a moment.
LOL...OWS is not serious in any way.

This idea is built on the premise that in a just society, citizens should be understood as free and equal participants in a system of social cooperation. Some individuals may be more motivated and harder working, and thus can legitimately expect greater rewards for their efforts. But everyone deserves the same bundle of individual rights and liberties, and everyone is entitled to “fair equality of opportunity,” including access to a decent education and a genuine chance of success in pursuing one’s life plans.

Rawlsian principles might help clarify the values of the movement and navigate it away from divisive or intellectually bankrupt rhetoric.
Inequality becomes injustice when the cooperative nature of society breaks down and a significant segment of the population finds itself unable to thrive, despite its best efforts.

First point in bold: horseshit to think that you don't have a fair shot in America. I personally know too many people who came from shit to living the American dream. I'm talking people from NYC rent-controlled buildings and/or projects, people from dirt shacks in India and Pakistan, and, people from other Asian nations. I can think of a few from Russia, The Ukraine & Slovakia who were dirt poor that did fine with some obstinate American-style elbow grease as well. Yes, some need to take more shots than others, and many who need to take less shots to get where they need/want to be can thank their family's efforts over the years, but don't you hope to do the same for your own? I do.

Second point in bold: yes, many of us are fucked right now, but I'm in the putting people to work business and I'm not seeing a whole lot of suffering from those who are putting forth their best efforts. Yes, there are notable exceptions, but those who work more or better and bitch less are probably not as 'victimized'. Put it another way: how many IGx'ers have been out protesting? Have any IGx'ers donated money to a 99% protest? Probably not on either count. Why? This 'movement' is a fucking joke, that is why.


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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

ÜberSmet wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
ÜberSmet wrote: or are you (and I), by believing the ultimate good of the current order of the society you live in and helping the mighty ones to keep their enormous wealth?
And so where does 'enormous wealth' start/stop?

You're a doctor and I'm sure you make good money....and assuming you're competent, deservedly so.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Peo ... ees/Salary

Let's say a doctor sympathetic to the 99%'ers makes $200k (US dollars). Someone who makes half of what that doc makes is not going to resent that income, as earning $100k today still takes tough, consistent effort. But at what income level do people see the $200k doctor as a 'mighty one with tremendous wealth'? I'd guess a lot of people who make less than $40k lump-in Dr. Average, in that group of evil-rich.

Perspective, comrades. Perspective.
The problem is not so much how rich one is, but how much one screws another. I don't think that most people who can have decent existence will resent someone's wealth. However when the handful of greedy speculators fuck up the economy and thousands lose their homes and income, while speculators walk away with even more millions - this perspective is different altogether.
You're wrong....plenty of people who make a modest living (say $40k/yr) hate evil doctors due to all the money you make.

Speculators fucked-up the economy in partnership with politicians (in America, mostly Barney Frank and ACORN), but to let the consumer who bought-in to the scam slide because they weren't savvy or smart enough is a disgrace. Don't be foolish, they knew something shady was going down and they are every bit as responsible as any 'greedy' tycoon.


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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by dead man walking »

lie nap,

i'm no student of philosophy, but i thought it was interesting that someone thought to cite one of the leading moral philosophers of the 20th centry, rawls, as a guide for the wall street crew, perhaps trying to bring a level of seriousness to the latter-day hippies.

i'm struck that you use the term "fair" is your post, and "justice as fairness" is rawls's principle of justice. i believe he would challenge your notion of what is "fair," but he's dead, so that's not an exchange we'll be seeing.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

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dead man walking wrote:lie nap,

i'm no student of philosophy, but i thought it was interesting that someone thought to cite one of the leading moral philosophers of the 20th centry, rawls, as a guide for the wall street crew, perhaps trying to bring a level of seriousness to the latter-day hippies.

i'm struck that you use the term "fair" is your post, and "justice as fairness" is rawls's principle of justice. i believe he would challenge your notion of what is "fair," but he's dead, so that's not an exchange we'll be seeing.
As an aside, you might be stunned to know that I am all for the rational use of civil disobedience, protest and lawful assembly. You'd also be equally stunned to know I understand value in what 1960's hippies did as well as the protests of blacks of the 60's & 70's. Today's 'protests/movements' are an insult against those.

The notion of what is 'fair' is really what you're questioning, isn't it? We can't measure how hard I've worked to get to where I am today nor can we measure how hard John Q. Hardluck's efforts have been or not been as we both face the hands that have been dealt to us. We have to live our lives under the assumptions that life is not fair (nor will it ever be) and more importantly, that we make our own breaks. Mr. Burns, Dr. Evil and the rest of the secret cadre controlling the world's misery index don't have that much control over an individual's quality of life.

Excuses, comrade. Excuses.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

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High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote: Speculators fucked-up the economy in partnership with politicians (in America, mostly Barney Frank and ACORN), but to let the consumer who bought-in to the scam slide because they weren't savvy or smart enough is a disgrace. Don't be foolish, they knew something shady was going down and they are every bit as responsible as any 'greedy' tycoon.
Are you kidding me? So if I sell bogus cancer treatment to a pensioner it's ok, and it's as much his fault as mine that he gets scammed off his savings? Large proportion of victims are simple folks with savings in the pension funds that bought risky derivatives, which was made possible by inflated ratings by the rating companies.

Your previous example of Asians, Ukranians and Russians suffers from the selection bias. People who leave their country for the better shores are different from the average citizen and are more likely to succeed. Also, many of them already had an occupation, a degree or a trade when they came to the States. Very different from a black guy growing up in a ghetto in Detroit.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by dead man walking »

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote: The notion of what is 'fair' is really what you're questioning, isn't it?
perhaps.

of course, life isn't fair. i was interested to see a guy citing "justice as fairness" as a model for the wall streeters, who are unhappy about what they perceive as unfairness. i think it is reasonable for society to do what it can do to ensure fairness, knowing that our efforts are certain to be imperfect.

i believe paul krugman, the economist, cites rawls as a major influence. i admire krugman, who is widely loathed here. perhaps rawls would come in for similar treatment, although i doubt most here put in the work to read and understand him. i haven't.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

ÜberSmet wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote: Speculators fucked-up the economy in partnership with politicians (in America, mostly Barney Frank and ACORN), but to let the consumer who bought-in to the scam slide because they weren't savvy or smart enough is a disgrace. Don't be foolish, they knew something shady was going down and they are every bit as responsible as any 'greedy' tycoon.
Are you kidding me? So if I sell bogus cancer treatment to a pensioner it's ok, and it's as much his fault as mine that he gets scammed off his savings? Large proportion of victims are simple folks with savings in the pension funds that bought risky derivatives, which was made possible by inflated ratings by the rating companies.

Your previous example of Asians, Ukranians and Russians suffers from the selection bias. People who leave their country for the better shores are different from the average citizen and are more likely to succeed. Also, many of them already had an occupation, a degree or a trade when they came to the States. Very different from a black guy growing up in a ghetto in Detroit.
Smet, I've implied this in the early stages of this thread I grew-up pretty much without a pot to pee in (by American low middle class standards), but take my word that you really have no idea just how humble my beginnings are and to that point, why I don't put much stock in the 'simple folks' excuse. Also, you seem to gloss over the fact that these programs were born out of ACORN policies. You only want to blame one arm of the monster, where as I see three to blame: financial services, politicians & consumers.

I am blessed to know people who have come from overseas to live the American dream and to do my part in helping them thrive (while making some great money in the process). I think we'd heartily agree that most of the top of the food chain still yearns to get to America and we (Americans) enjoy the top talent from the rest of the world. Why? They are the brightest and hardest working, it only stands to reason they'd want to come to the land of opportunity where they can run circles around black dudes from Detroit, to use your example, or white boys from Dayton for that matter. Basically, they'd kick the shit out of anyone with a sense of entitlement. Also & FWIW, those guys growing-up in the ghetto have a ton of opportunity, educational and otherwise and they typically come their way much easier and more frequently than say, Joe Middle Class Whiteboy sees his 'big break'.


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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

[quote="dead man walking"] i think it is reasonable for society to do what it can do to ensure fairness, knowing that our efforts are certain to be imperfect.
'
Impossible...that's why competition exists and needs to exist.

Oh wait....here's an idea!

If you're white and want to achieve Goal X, you need to work 100 hours.

If you're a person of color and want to achieve Goal X, you only need to work 75 hours.

If you're a woman and want to achieve Goal X, you only need to work 70 hours.

If you're a woman and a person of color and want to achieve Goal X, you only need to work 60 hours.

Does the above, while obviously simplistic and snarky, ensure fairness, IYO? Change the race and gender examples to household incomes if you want, does that scenario ensure fairness?

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

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High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:[Put it another way: how many IGx'ers have been out protesting? Have any IGx'ers donated money to a 99% protest?
Only the one's willing to pony up $5500 for a Mac.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

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lie nap

i'm not going to argue with you, especially about simplistic reductions.

google "veil of ignorance." proceed from there, if you're so inclined.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

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High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote: Impossible...that's why competition exists and needs to exist.

Oh wait....here's an idea!

If you're white and want to achieve Goal X, you need to work 100 hours.

If you're a person of color and want to achieve Goal X, you only need to work 75 hours.

If you're a woman and want to achieve Goal X, you only need to work 70 hours.

If you're a woman and a person of color and want to achieve Goal X, you only need to work 60 hours.

Does the above, while obviously simplistic and snarky, ensure fairness, IYO? Change the race and gender examples to household incomes if you want, does that scenario ensure fairness?
I agree 100% that "fairness" shouldn't be the goal of government or corporations. Equal opportunity SHOULD be the realm of the government. And that doesn't mean special privileges for historic under-achievers. It should mean equal access to the same resources.

Where you get in the sticky wicket is that historic under-achievers are conditioned to under achieve. Poor black kid in the inner city who's the 9th child by the 9th different dad probably isn't going to amount to jack shit because mom can't pass on any worth while life skills and everyone he knows is in the same situation. He might have the same opportunity to go to school and learn a good trade that I had, but his situation puts him at a distinct disadvantage. No matter what the government does, he'll never have a level playing field.

That's more of a culture thing, and no amount of hand wringing, tax money, government mandates or any other social program is going to help. Not sure how you change a culture of shittyness.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

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Alfred_E._Neuman wrote:[quot

I agree 100% that "fairness" shouldn't be the goal of government or corporations. Equal opportunity SHOULD be the realm of the government.
define "fairness," alfred. what is the definition of fairness relates specifically to equality of opportunity?
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

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Pretty simple.

Providing equal opportunity means giving each person the same exposure to public education, public facilities and protection from discrimination.

Fairness is an abstract concept that only applies to games and sports. In life, nothing is "fair". For that to be the case, each person would have to come from the same socio-economic and family background. We'll never have the playing field that level because we simply can't control society down to that micro level.

The real problem is making sure that the opportunities (schools etc) are actually equal across the board and figuring out how to deliver the product to the lower class in a way that sticks. But no matter how much money you throw at a school or how good the teachers are, that 6 hours a day for 180 days a year can't hope to touch the development a kid gets at home, good or bad.

I'm not saying I have any solutions, and I certainly see the problem of people from different backgrounds trying to succeed in the same basic system.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

dead man walking wrote: google "veil of ignorance." proceed from there, if you're so inclined.
Is there any real world example demonstrating this actually works?

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

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High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
dead man walking wrote: google "veil of ignorance." proceed from there, if you're so inclined.
Is there any real world example demonstrating this actually works?
I've used google often and I can testify that it works

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

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Alfred_E._Neuman wrote:Pretty simple.

Providing equal opportunity means giving each person the same exposure to public education, public facilities and protection from discrimination.

Fairness is an abstract concept that only applies to games and sports. In life, nothing is "fair". For that to be the case, each person would have to come from the same socio-economic and family background. We'll never have the playing field that level because we simply can't control society down to that micro level.

The real problem is making sure that the opportunities (schools etc) are actually equal across the board and figuring out how to deliver the product to the lower class in a way that sticks. But no matter how much money you throw at a school or how good the teachers are, that 6 hours a day for 180 days a year can't hope to touch the development a kid gets at home, good or bad.

I'm not saying I have any solutions, and I certainly see the problem of people from different backgrounds trying to succeed in the same basic system.
Pretty simple really:
Republicans don't want to spend more money when they don't get better schools, and may not want to spend it either way.

+ Democrats want to protect the extra layers of bureaucracy (and when there are layoffs, it isn't the administrators that go first) and have to answer to teachers unions

+ Teachers as a group see themselves as superior, and don't want to work in partnership with other organizations, and don't trust standards externally imposed on them

= fuck the kids
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

BucketHead wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
dead man walking wrote: google "veil of ignorance." proceed from there, if you're so inclined.
Is there any real world example demonstrating this actually works?
I've used google often and I can testify that it works
Maybe your Google works better than my Google, since you likely had a better upbringing than mine from an economic standpoint; because I couldn't find any real world working examples on the Google I was using.

It's a good thing that veil of ignorance isn't applied to flight schools or ATC schools, as a former RIO, don't you agree?


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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

Turdacious wrote:
Alfred_E._Neuman wrote:Pretty simple.

Providing equal opportunity means giving each person the same exposure to public education, public facilities and protection from discrimination.

Fairness is an abstract concept that only applies to games and sports. In life, nothing is "fair". For that to be the case, each person would have to come from the same socio-economic and family background. We'll never have the playing field that level because we simply can't control society down to that micro level.

The real problem is making sure that the opportunities (schools etc) are actually equal across the board and figuring out how to deliver the product to the lower class in a way that sticks. But no matter how much money you throw at a school or how good the teachers are, that 6 hours a day for 180 days a year can't hope to touch the development a kid gets at home, good or bad.

I'm not saying I have any solutions, and I certainly see the problem of people from different backgrounds trying to succeed in the same basic system.
Pretty simple really:
Republicans don't want to spend more money when they don't get better schools, and may not want to spend it either way.

+ Democrats want to protect the extra layers of bureaucracy (and when there are layoffs, it isn't the administrators that go first) and have to answer to teachers unions

+ Teachers as a group see themselves as superior, and don't want to work in partnership with other organizations, and don't trust standards externally imposed on them

= fuck the kids
Quick side story: a buddy of mine married an ultra-lefty Minnesota school teacher (the ever-scowling, white type) in August. It was overheard by a mutual friend that her gaggle of teacher friends couldn't name six State Capitals during a 'fun quiz' type of thing on the bus ride from the hotel to the reception. Fast forward two weeks later, she is at this same mutual friend's home and goes on to pick apart her education (private school + BS degree from Northwestern) as being no better than her public school system education that she had and now helps to run. When 'mutual friend' threw it in the face of libteach that her fellow teacher friends couldn't name six state Capitals, she said "so what? You can look that kind of stuff up online...." Nice, huh?

You can't make this shit up, Lie-men.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by bigpeach »

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/bl ... g-20111025

Taibbi does a decent job of explaining the protest. Self-absorbed egoists like Cain, who replaced Trump as "running as a joke," to steal Seth Meyers' line, think it is about envy people have for him. Or hate for the wealthy. It is more about the flaws in the system that banks are able to exploit at will, and still be able to get mega billions to cover their losses on bad investments.
Of course, 99% (HA! how clever and topical am I?) of the protestors don't understand it either, and show up with signs ranging from "Free Mumia" to "meat is murder."
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

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High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
BucketHead wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
dead man walking wrote: google "veil of ignorance." proceed from there, if you're so inclined.
Is there any real world example demonstrating this actually works?
I've used google often and I can testify that it works
Maybe your Google works better than my Google, since you likely had a better upbringing than mine from an economic standpoint; because I couldn't find any real world working examples on the Google I was using.

It's a good thing that veil of ignorance isn't applied to flight schools or ATC schools, as a former RIO, don't you agree?
I don't understand that. I was just making a funny ha-ha.


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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

BucketHead wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
BucketHead wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
dead man walking wrote: google "veil of ignorance." proceed from there, if you're so inclined.
Is there any real world example demonstrating this actually works?
I've used google often and I can testify that it works
Maybe your Google works better than my Google, since you likely had a better upbringing than mine from an economic standpoint; because I couldn't find any real world working examples on the Google I was using.

It's a good thing that veil of ignorance isn't applied to flight schools or ATC schools, as a former RIO, don't you agree?
I don't understand that. I was just making a funny ha-ha.
Me too.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

Post by buckethead »

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
BucketHead wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
BucketHead wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
dead man walking wrote: google "veil of ignorance." proceed from there, if you're so inclined.
Is there any real world example demonstrating this actually works?
I've used google often and I can testify that it works
Maybe your Google works better than my Google, since you likely had a better upbringing than mine from an economic standpoint; because I couldn't find any real world working examples on the Google I was using.

It's a good thing that veil of ignorance isn't applied to flight schools or ATC schools, as a former RIO, don't you agree?
I don't understand that. I was just making a funny ha-ha.
Me too.
I thought so. I don't understand 1% humor

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Re: Occupy Wall Street

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High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
dead man walking wrote:lie nap,

i'm no student of philosophy, but i thought it was interesting that someone thought to cite one of the leading moral philosophers of the 20th centry, rawls, as a guide for the wall street crew, perhaps trying to bring a level of seriousness to the latter-day hippies.

i'm struck that you use the term "fair" is your post, and "justice as fairness" is rawls's principle of justice. i believe he would challenge your notion of what is "fair," but he's dead, so that's not an exchange we'll be seeing.
As an aside, you might be stunned to know that I am all for the rational use of civil disobedience, protest and lawful assembly. You'd also be equally stunned to know I understand value in what 1960's hippies did as well as the protests of blacks of the 60's & 70's. Today's 'protests/movements' are an insult against those.

The notion of what is 'fair' is really what you're questioning, isn't it? We can't measure how hard I've worked to get to where I am today nor can we measure how hard John Q. Hardluck's efforts have been or not been as we both face the hands that have been dealt to us. We have to live our lives under the assumptions that life is not fair (nor will it ever be) and more importantly, that we make our own breaks. Mr. Burns, Dr. Evil and the rest of the secret cadre controlling the world's misery index don't have that much control over an individual's quality of life.

Excuses, comrade. Excuses.
Another guy making excuses for his incredibly weak performance.
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Re: Occupy Wall Street

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High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
BucketHead wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
dead man walking wrote: google "veil of ignorance." proceed from there, if you're so inclined.
Is there any real world example demonstrating this actually works?
I've used google often and I can testify that it works
Maybe your Google works better than my Google, since you likely had a better upbringing than mine from an economic standpoint; because I couldn't find any real world working examples on the Google I was using.

It's a good thing that veil of ignorance isn't applied to flight schools or ATC schools, as a former RIO, don't you agree?
Here's a real-world application. Rawls uses the veil of ignorance as a rule of communication. He says we should reason together as if we did not know the status of the person we'd be in the nation we hope to create. He then develops the argument by postulating that reasonable people would want a safety net or some minimum standards given that they could be at the bottom of the society we want to build. Philosophically, this notion has a lot of problems, but it is intuitively powerful.

So here's a real world example that I think has the same intuitive force. Look at immigrants. They know they'll give up their homes and go to another country where they'll start with nothing. Thus they will not go somewhere that is not "fair" in the sense of providing a safety net and opportunity. Where do they leave and where do they go?

People all over the world -- rich, poor, educated or not -- want to come to the USA. Thus, real world, they perceive the US as a fair society for the 1% at the bottom of society. That, of course, is the opposite of the perception of OWS crowd.
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