IGX

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/tag/ukraine/

Because this thread needs moar conspiracies...

Smet wrote:Not at all, they are caught between several forces. USA, yes. But also Russia, China and major European countries. The adjectives good or bad are not applicable here. At the end it's all bad.

The situation which Ukraine is in with regard to the USA is in no way comparable to that of Russia. Russia, at this very moment, has large armed contingents operating on Ukrainian soil in Crimea and elsewhere. There is no parallel with regard to USA, China, or the EU and its laughable to suggest so. Do these other entities lobby for their interests? Yes. Interfere? Perhaps? Point guns and seize land? No.

Smet wrote:There is never anything good in any conflict, and invasion of Afghanistan by USSR was as bad and immoral as its current invasion by USA. Similarly, current participation and interference of foreign forces in the Ukrainian conflict is not good for everyone, especially people living in the region. The point is, this is not Russia against Ukraine, it is Russia against USA and the West.

Personally, I don't agree that there is never anything good in any conflict. Some fights are worth having; this just isn't one of them. But trying to cast this as Russia vs. the West is inane. Nobody is against Russia. Where are foreign troops beleaguering Russians? Nowhere? Where are Russians beleaguering foreigners? Ukraine, Georgia, etc.

Smet wrote:Russia and Europe/USA have considered each other enemies since socialist Russian Revolution and stepped on each other's toes continuously. Note how I avoid marking any of them good or bad. Current events is just another rounds of that struggle.

The USSR was a totalitarian Judeo-Bolshevist nightmare. If you can't acknowledge that much, you are morally adrift. That's not "being moralistic" that's having a grasp of history. Yes, many Soviet people and accomplishments were good, but the system was unalloyed evil. Don't take my word for it. Remember all the Russians who lined up to send the USSR into the dustbin of history because they new it was evil.

Smet wrote:It is tragic that smaller nations get caught in the brawl. Stalin and Hitler divided Europe in 1939. About the same time Brittain and France decided to chop off the Sudettenland from Czechoslovakia and ban ditto Hitler. Incidentally, the majority of population wanted this at the time.

There is no "brawl". There is a unilateral use of international force by Russia. Again, there are NO other combatant nations. Where are the American troops? The European troops? Only Russia.

Smet wrote:After war - Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin drew new lines in Europe once again. At the same time USSR facilitates drawing a wedge in the middle of the British empire: Israel. Incidentally, it is also a wedge in the middle of the Arabic Holy Land, and Arabs are forever pissed with the West for this. Fast forward to 1990 - new shuffle, now from the position of Western strength and Russian weakness with their imbecile alcoholic president.

Your meaning here is unclear, but if the USA wanted to wipe out Russia, it had the chance and didn't after WWII when we had all the nukes. Soviet, and now Russian, politicians have continued the tired pattern of perpetuating their authoritarian regimes by casting the USA as villain when history clearly illustrates otherwise, and despite our many real faults.

Smet wrote:Now Russia has a strong president (again I am not marking him as good or bad, it depends on different points of view) and the re-shuffle is initiated once again.

On the contrary, Putin is incredibly, laughably weak. He had all of Ukraine in his pocket, and now he can barely hold on to Crimea. He wasted billions fostering Olympic goodwill only to squander it in a matter of days. He has driven the Russian economy into recession, no mean feat for an already anemic nation. He is terrified of internal dissent to the extent that he has eliminated the free press. How utterly sad that you think this is what strong leadership looks like.

Smet wrote:It is immoral, like all politics. Just don't think for a second that events of such significance and magnitude are as simple as spontaneous popular appraising and suppression by Bad communists. If, let's say, an anti-American appraising started in Mexico you could be sure it is the work of Russia, via various innocent proxies, of course. I just don't believe that USA and major European countries can be so incompetent in running foreign affairs and not have a finger in the pot.

You have my absolute word of honor that nobody in America things that Russia is capable of creating an uprising in Mexico. However, to soothe your frazzled sensibilities I would point out that there WAS an uprising in Mexico (in Chiapas in the 1990s) and nobody pointed the finger at Russia. But all this debate is about is distilled in your final line: "I don't believe..." You take it as an article of faith that somehow, in some smokey back room, evil Yankee imperialists are calling the shots of for the forces of reaction. Evidence, for you, is optional.

Fat Cat wrote: Russia, at this very moment, has large armed contingents operating on Ukrainian soil in Crimea and elsewhere.

Fat Cat wrote:Provide evidence.

Wild Bill wrote:

Fat Cat wrote: Russia, at this very moment, has large armed contingents operating on Ukrainian soil in Crimea and elsewhere.

Fat Cat wrote:Provide evidence.

Andrew Osborn; Alastair Macdonald (14 March 2014). "Russia brings trucks, armor into Ukraine's Crimea by ship". Sevastopol, Ukraine. Reuters. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
Loiko, Sergei (4 March 2014). "Some 'local' forces in Crimea look a lot like Russian military http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/l ... z2wnMdsBIL". Retrieved 23 March 2014.
Russian units in the Crimea are commanded by the deputy chief of the Southern Military District of the Russian Federation Igor Turchenyuk. RBK Ukraine. March 2, 2014
"В Джанкое находятся войска Чеченской Республики | медиа центр "IPC - Джанкой"". Ipc-dzhankoy.org. Retrieved 2014-03-11.
twower 11 октября, 2011. "Денис Мокрушин - 18-я мотострелковая бригада. Условия службы". Twower.livejournal.com. Retrieved 2014-03-11.
"Ukraina: Krimmis on Tšetšeeniast ja Uljanovskist pärit Vene sõdurid" [Ukraine: Russian soldiers from Chechnya and Ulyanovsk in Crimea], Postimees (EE), 5 March 2014
Bowden, Andrew (15 March 2015). "Will Russia risk an all-out invasion of Ukraine?". Foreign Policy. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
"Ukraine says Russian Marines ring coast guard base". Huffington Post. Associated Press. 28 March 2014. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
"Ukraine Live", The Daily Telegraph, 3 March 2014
"Ukraine Crisis: On Crimea's new border the Russian Army waits". The Daily Telegraph. 3 March 2014. Retrieved 4 March 2014.
David M. Herszenhorn; Andrew E. Kramer (19 March 2014). "Ukraine plans to withdraw troops from Russia-occupied Crimea". The New York Times. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
Oliphant, Roland (4 March 2014). "'I’m sick of living at gunpoint. Who do they think they are?’". The Telegraph. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
Oliphant, Roland (23 March 2014). "Ukraine crisis: the inevitable fall of Belbek". The Telegraph. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
"Ukrainian Navy Flagship Hoists Russian Flag". RIA Novosti (Sevastopol). 23 March 2014. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
http://hubs.com.ua/authority/voenno-mor ... tsiya.html
Aksenov began to form a new army in the Crimea for protection of referendum. TSN. March 10, 2014

Follow links live here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mi ... ean_crisis

And Bill, remember when you said Russia wouldn't annex Crimea? Would you care to modify that statement?

Wild Bill wrote:

Fat Cat wrote: Russia, at this very moment, has large armed contingents operating on Ukrainian soil in Crimea and elsewhere.

Fat Cat wrote:Provide evidence.

You need evidence Russians are in Crimea?

nafod wrote:You need evidence Russians are in Crimea?

No. Russian troops were in the Crimea in accordance with the agreement on Black Sea Fleet.

I need evidence that it was Russian troops who captured city administrations in Crimea, etc.
And evidence that Russians troops are in Donetsk, Lugansk, Kharkov... "and elsewhere".

Fat Cat wrote:

Wild Bill wrote:

Fat Cat wrote: Russia, at this very moment, has large armed contingents operating on Ukrainian soil in Crimea and elsewhere.

Fat Cat wrote:Provide evidence.

Andrew Osborn; Alastair Macdonald (14 March 2014). "Russia brings trucks, armor into Ukraine's Crimea by ship". Sevastopol, Ukraine. Reuters. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
Loiko, Sergei (4 March 2014). "Some 'local' forces in Crimea look a lot like Russian military http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/l ... z2wnMdsBIL". Retrieved 23 March 2014.
Russian units in the Crimea are commanded by the deputy chief of the Southern Military District of the Russian Federation Igor Turchenyuk. RBK Ukraine. March 2, 2014
"В Джанкое находятся войска Чеченской Республики | медиа центр "IPC - Джанкой"". Ipc-dzhankoy.org. Retrieved 2014-03-11.
twower 11 октября, 2011. "Денис Мокрушин - 18-я мотострелковая бригада. Условия службы". Twower.livejournal.com. Retrieved 2014-03-11.
"Ukraina: Krimmis on Tšetšeeniast ja Uljanovskist pärit Vene sõdurid" [Ukraine: Russian soldiers from Chechnya and Ulyanovsk in Crimea], Postimees (EE), 5 March 2014
Bowden, Andrew (15 March 2015). "Will Russia risk an all-out invasion of Ukraine?". Foreign Policy. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
"Ukraine says Russian Marines ring coast guard base". Huffington Post. Associated Press. 28 March 2014. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
"Ukraine Live", The Daily Telegraph, 3 March 2014
"Ukraine Crisis: On Crimea's new border the Russian Army waits". The Daily Telegraph. 3 March 2014. Retrieved 4 March 2014.
David M. Herszenhorn; Andrew E. Kramer (19 March 2014). "Ukraine plans to withdraw troops from Russia-occupied Crimea". The New York Times. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
Oliphant, Roland (4 March 2014). "'I’m sick of living at gunpoint. Who do they think they are?’". The Telegraph. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
Oliphant, Roland (23 March 2014). "Ukraine crisis: the inevitable fall of Belbek". The Telegraph. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
"Ukrainian Navy Flagship Hoists Russian Flag". RIA Novosti (Sevastopol). 23 March 2014. Retrieved 23 March 2014.
http://hubs.com.ua/authority/voenno-mor ... tsiya.html
Aksenov began to form a new army in the Crimea for protection of referendum. TSN. March 10, 2014

Follow links live here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mi ... ean_crisis

These are not evidence. Just articles from western media.
One of them wich is in Russian - it is proved fake :)

the main and only argument in them is "they look a lot like Russian military" :))

Fat Cat wrote:And Bill, remember when you said Russia wouldn't annex Crimea? Would you care to modify that statement?

Yes. I didn't expect this. I admit.
But i aprove it :) and for me it is not annexion.

"Ukrainian Navy Flagship Hoists Russian Flag". Do you thin this is evidence? Evidence of what then? :)

Wild Bill wrote:

Fat Cat wrote:And Bill, remember when you said Russia wouldn't annex Crimea? Would you care to modify that statement?

Yes. I didn't expect this. I admit.
But i aprove it :) and for me it is not annexion.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xapCyuJMf0[/youtube]

"trough the wall a special forces operation, racing across the open ground, heading towards the ukrainian soldiers..." (if i heard corectly)...

through the wall... and no any reaction from ukrainean soldiers?? What if someone rode through the wall in American military base?

They don't even asked them who are they. How could they know they a russian special forces?
They should arest them and ask questions. That would be evidence. Or at least ask them who are they.

So...its just some theatrical scene.
It is not evidence.

2:34 It is the same guy who shouted "America with us!" on other video :) And he speaks English fluently...

They are stormed... and just stay and watching...
I don't say they should defend their base. I am not soldier. But they don't even running. They are do nothing. Just watching, and crying to journalists.

Where at least one military card of the soldier of the Russian army?

Wild Bill wrote:2:34 It is the same guy who shouted "America with us!" on other video :) And he speaks English fluently...

here he is


"America with us!"

It was a lot of fun. Carrying Soviet flag and shouting about America.

1:31 he is chewing sunflower seeds!!!!!!
what a terrific storm! :)))

no evidence :)

Fat Cat wrote: The USSR was a totalitarian Judeo-Bolshevist nightmare.

Do you mind elaborating on "Judeo-" part?

Smet wrote:

It is immoral, like all politics. Just don't think for a second that events of such significance and magnitude are as simple as spontaneous popular appraising and suppression by Bad communists. If, let's say, an anti-American appraising started in Mexico you could be sure it is the work of Russia, via various innocent proxies, of course. I just don't believe that USA and major European countries can be so incompetent in running foreign affairs and not have a finger in the pot.

Smet do you really believe that the last two U.S. Secretaries of State were competent?

Wild Bill, are you one of those Russians paid to be on forums and plant seeds of uncertainty, doubt, and kooky balls in the West's minds?

Of course Russians are running around all over the Ukraine, all the while trying to maintain some veneer of plausible deniability. It's the smart play. Don't BS a BS-er, bro.

"Of course Russians are running around all over the Ukraine"
"Of course Yanukovich Putin's puppet"
"Of course riots were organized by E.U. and U.S."

All these three statements have in common that they have no evidence. But all they are "of course".
You believe in the firs two, i believe in third :) And i have the same evidences as you. Nothing.

nafod wrote:Wild Bill, are you one of those Russians paid to be on forums and plant seeds of uncertainty, doubt, and kooky balls in the West's minds?

:)