Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

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Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by Holy Cow »

http://www.armytimes.com/article/201309 ... eath-skill

For you non-link-clickers:
Michelle Tan with ArmyTimes wrote:Planned changes to combatives training have proponents fighting for the survival of the program and the “life-or-death” skills it teaches.

These hand-to-hand skills save lives, and lives are at risk without those abilities developed over the course of the combatives program, they say.

The Modern Army Combatives Program, headquartered at Fort Benning, Ga., consists of four skill-level courses — a weeklong basic course, a two-week tactical course, and a basic combatives instructor course and a tactical combatives instructor course, each of which is four weeks long.

Proposals from Training and Doctrine Command call for eliminating all four levels of training and creating a master combatives trainer course that would be no more than two weeks long.

In an email obtained by Army Times, officials from TRADOC call for “implementation of the new program as quickly as possible.”

Officials at the combatives school at Fort Benning have until Sept. 30 to come up with a two-week curriculum for the proposed master combatives trainer course, said a senior noncommissioned officer who asked that his name be withheld.

Officials from TRADOC declined to respond to requests for information from Army Times.

If the proposed changes come through, in addition to the elimination of competitions, “I think it’s going to be detrimental to the force moving forward,” the senior NCO said. “We’re taking away so much training, and it’s not only soldiers’ ability to fight, but confidence, instilling the warrior ethos in the individual soldier, and some of those intangibles that can’t be measured.”

“It’s a life-or-death skill,” said Staff Sgt. Colton Smith, chief combatives instructor for III Corps and Fort Hood, Texas. In December, the two-tour Iraq veteran won “The Ultimate Fighter,” Spike TV’s reality mixed martial arts competition. He said combatives are essential to his job as an infantryman.

“Being the fastest runner or the best ruck marcher or the best guy who does pullups and pushups, that’s great,” Smith said. “But it doesn’t save lives like combatives.

“Hand-to-hand situations will happen,” he added. “You run out of ammo, your weapon malfunctions. This is the last line of defense you have to protect yourself and your men.”

Growing experts
Proposed changes to combatives training call for the program to be boiled down primarily to 15 tasks outlined in STP 21-1, “Soldier’s Manual of Common Tasks, Warrior Skills Level 1.” These tasks, under the heading “React to Man-to-Man Contact,” include basic techniques on how to achieve a clinch, do a front take-down, and how to gain a dominant position when faced with an enemy fighter.

The changes, if approved, would water down the training and potentially be more dangerous as less experienced instructors teach the program, combatives proponents said.

“We have standards for everything in the Army,” he said. “Why would we not have standards across the force for [combatives]?”

It takes time to grow subject-matter experts, said Matt Larsen, the former director of the combatives program. Graduates of the tactical instructor course are meant to be responsible for combatives training at a brigade-sized or larger unit.

“You don’t become a subject-matter expert in anything in a matter of two or three weeks,” he said. “What people learn in combatives school is how to conduct realistic, difficult and safe training.”

The combatives program began in the mid-1990s as a grass-roots training regimen in the 2nd Ranger Battalion and was formally established in Army doctrine in 2002. It was approved Army-wide by then-Chief of Staff Gen. Peter Schoomaker, who said every soldier should “experience the physical and emotional demands of hand-to-hand fighting prior to engaging in combat.”

In 2004, he directed commanders to incorporate combatives into collective training and to hold competitions to give soldiers maximum exposure to this “fundamental building block for combat.”

A safety issue
Sean Roberts, the lead combatives instructor for 1st Infantry Division and Fort Riley, Kan., said changing combatives training puts soldiers at risk.

“Any significant changes to the training model could result in serious potential for increased injury rates and reduced operational preparedness for soldiers,” he said.

The training model exists for a reason, Roberts said.

“It’s so that, at each level, the soldier becomes proficient, and it requires hundreds of hours,” he said. “You can’t have an individual who’s received a minimum amount of training have maximum responsibility and not expect catastrophic failure at some point.”

In March, citing budget cuts, TRADOC announced that it was scaling back or postponing a number of its annual competitions, including the annual all-Army combatives tournament.

This year’s tournament, set for late summer at Fort Carson, Colo., was canceled. In addition, unit-level combatives competitions in all TRADOC units are postponed unless the unit requests and receives an exception to policy.

TRADOC officials, at the time, denied complaints from soldiers that TRADOC was banning combatives tournaments because of the nature of the training.

TRADOC “sees significant value in the combatives program,” spokesman Col. Christian Kubik said at the time.

The training includes “hard and arduous physical training that is, at the same time, also mentally demanding and carries over to the other military pursuits,” he said.

The elimination of combatives competitions and a directive to remove all references to competitions in combatives doctrine is a safety issue, the senior NCO said.

“We don’t allow certain techniques that are authorized in civilian mixed-martial arts because we deemed it too high-risk that soldiers may be potentially injured,” he said.

These techniques include elbow strikes or knees to the head.

Without established rules for how to run a combatives tournament in the Army, some of these techniques could creep into the events “because there’s no guidance,” the senior NCO said.

Warrior ethos
During a typical year, about 700 soldiers will complete the basic combatives instructor course and about 120 will complete the tactical combatives instructor course, the senior NCO said.

Last year, these instructors in turn trained almost 60,000 soldiers in the basic course and more than 18,000 in the tactical course at their respective home stations. The combatives school also sends mobile training teams to bring the instructor courses to soldiers across the Army, and the demand is high, the senior NCO said.

The half-dozen or so teams for fiscal 2014 have been locked in for various units, and at least five other units have so far offered to pay for an MTT with their own funds, the senior NCO said.

“The real purpose of combatives training is to have an Army infused with the warrior ethos,” Larsen said, citing the March 23, 2003, ambush of the 507th Maintenance Company in Nasiriyah, Iraq. The soldiers, including former Pvt. Jessica Lynch, who was captured and rescued, all knew how to maintain and shoot their weapons and conduct land navigation, Larsen said.

“But they got lost, and all their weapons malfunctioned, because they didn’t think those skills were for them, because you don’t teach the warrior ethos on the rifle range or when cleaning your weapons or any other of the numerous tasks that soldiers have to be able to perform,” he said. “What went wrong in the 507th Maintenance Company is those soldiers never knew that they were soldiers first, and being a soldier means being the one who has to potentially close with the enemy.

“We know that the modern battlefield, which involves substantial fighting in close quarters, within buildings, within built-up areas, makes hand-to-hand combat much more likely than it even was in previous conflicts,” he said, and thousands of soldiers can “attest to the fact that they’ve used what they learned in the program in combat and are alive because of it.”

Those lessons learned must not be forgotten, Larsen said.

“I have confidence that the leaders of today’s Army are warriors, and they will make the right decision, and we won’t re-create that pre-Jessica Lynch Army,” he said. “The lesson we really learned in this war is that there’s no such thing as a non-combat [military occupational specialty].”

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johno
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by johno »

We are moving into a Peacetime Army mode. Standards will be diluted. It's tradition.
Also, the military has to integrate women into the Combat Arms. Double Whammy.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

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buckethead
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by buckethead »

Aikido is the answer

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WildGorillaMan
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by WildGorillaMan »

“You don’t become a subject-matter expert in anything in a matter of two or three weeks,” he said.
Untrue. You can totally do it in a weekend seminar.
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Shapecharge
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by Shapecharge »

I hope someone high up in the Army chain of command has Phil Elmore of "Street Sword" fame in their contact list.

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powerlifter54
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by powerlifter54 »

Two issues here. First is Army going back into Garrison mode. Major issues ahead as multiple deployment Soldiers get Mickey Moused over their hats. AG winter led to headgear being a choice not a directive. Second is this is not a coincidence that the timing is parallel to womyn in combat growth moving to infantry.

Good luck with that.
"Start slowly, then ease off". Tortuga Golden Striders Running Club, Pensacola 1984.

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Sua Sponte
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by Sua Sponte »

It took two decades to get the program to where it is today and it's gone with one directive. No time to make even an informed change in the system. It was no easy feat getting accepted Army-wide to begin with. Regiment will probably hold on to its program, it started there anyway. My prediction for the future in the Big Army is injuries will increase, as the article states, and that will be used as an excuse to eliminate it entirely. Something will come out to the affect "we lose two battalions worth of soldiers with injuries each year to this program and it has nothing to do with making stuff shiny or buffing a floor, our real mission"

Next prediction-marksmanship; it'll go back to the cold war myth that artillery and air inflict casualties, not riflemen. No need to spend three weeks in basic training shooting those noisy, politically incorrect rifles and bullets. "Advanced marksmanship" will then again be passed off to the AMU to conduct MTT's using money they don't have.

All physical standards are now being reviewed to determine if they are really combat relevant (read "how do we get women into combat arms"). This is necessary, of course, after a decade plus of infantry-centric warfare, where we most definitely did not learn that they need to be higher by far than they are.

Two to three years and we'll be back to the late 70's.

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Kazuya Mishima
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by Kazuya Mishima »

Decent upper body strength is the answer to all questions.


knuckles
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by knuckles »

Son ...did you shine those boots with a fuckin Hershey bar?

Post police in golf carts and crossing guard vests

your unit crest flash on your beret is not pristine now ..is it ..

gear lay outs for brass

I HATED that BULLSHIT as a" salty" E3 with just a dozen jumps ....
or maybe they will like the idea of not being shot at ...I wonder.I doubt it.

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DARTH
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by DARTH »

It was a pretty stupid system anyway. My buddies certifications to teach were all about letting some idiot beat on you.

It emphasised Boxing punches for people who's main function is to press their fingers into triggers and assuming our guys won't fight others in helmets and body armour as well. And what they were showing of the instruction on Pentagon channel was horrid.

Still 100% better than nothing or some Battalion commander chumming up to his kid's TKD instructor and subjecting his guys to that shit.

All branches should just use MCMAP to train other service personnel in the system.

Other than that, individuals can take it on themselves to find a place to train, but that will leave a lot of guys out.

Even though the MAC system is not great, it still was more than adequate to do what Trooper said was the most important thing a soldier can get out of hand to hand, the ability and willingness to take hits and willingly close with the enemy and kill him. He felt H2H was very good an fostering that.

Hand to hand should be a core skill, they should cut out sensitivity training and other PC touchy feely shit that has no place in a profession of arms.




"God forbid we tell the savages to go fuck themselves." Batboy

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Bobby
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by Bobby »

No,no,no,no!Gender studies is what they should teach,we have an awesome gender studies center/school here in Sweden.We can also teach you about how to be enviromentally friendly instead of all this hitting,killing and blowing shit up.
You`ll toughen up.Unless you have a serious medical condition commonly refered to as
"being a pussy".

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stanley_white
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by stanley_white »

In a pre-deployment context of a conventional unit I want Soldiers training for what they are most likely to do -- land navigation, pull triggers, treat casualties, talk on the radio, maintain equipment, tactics etc. Master those then we can talk about training for minority situations that can be addressed via a combatives program.

Military-wide the value of a combatives program, which is a nice to have, needs to be balanced against the core tasks that must be mastered. Think like Dan John and Pavel -- "majoring in the minors" etc. From a unit command standpoint if Soldiers are injured while "majoring in the minors" they are then unavailable to attend the training that they actually need and are therefore a liability on the battlefield if they are deployable at all.

-Stan

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johno
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by johno »

Shoot, move, and communicate are basic skills.
Throwing a rear naked choke is irrelevant to today's battlefield, EXCEPT that H2H develops a warrior attitude that gives a foundation to those basic skills.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

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Holland Oates
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by Holland Oates »

johno wrote:. . . H2H develops a warrior attitude that gives a foundation to those basic skills.
This.

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Bobby
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Re: Army Combatives May Change for the Worse

Post by Bobby »

How can we make the world a better place if we don`t train our soldiers to be more sensitive? Just imagine if we sent out people with both a Kaz and a warrior attitude!
You`ll toughen up.Unless you have a serious medical condition commonly refered to as
"being a pussy".

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