Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Topics without replies are pruned every 365 days. Not moderated.

Moderator: Dux

User avatar

Topic author
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 40971
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 悪を根付かせるな

Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by Fat Cat »

Jury selection begins in Derek Chauvin's trial in the death of George Floyd. Here's what to expect

The death that sparked a worldwide movement took center stage in a heavily fortified Minneapolis courtroom on Tuesday as jury selection began in Derek Chauvin's trial in the death of George Floyd.

Floyd, a 46-year-old Black man, died on May 25, 2020, after Chauvin, then a Minneapolis Police officer, placed his knee on Floyd's neck for nearly eight minutes while Floyd pleaded, "I can't breathe." His final moments were captured on video, and his death led to widespread protests against police brutality and racism under the banner Black Lives Matter as well as incidents of unrest and looting.

Chauvin has pleaded not guilty to second-degree unintentional murder and second-degree manslaughter charges. In addition, a charge of third-degree murder that was dismissed in October is now in limbo after an appeals court ruled the trial judge should reconsider a motion to reinstate it, which could lead to a delay in the start of the trial.


https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/08/us/derek ... index.html


Fat Cat stay asking the hard questions. So...for the IGX brain trust:

1. Do the facts support a charge of 2nd degree homicide?

2. Was the knee compression an allowable use of force?

3. Did FG die of asphyxia or an overdose of Fentanyl?

4. What's the likely outcome in the courtroom?

5. What's the likely outcome in the streets?
Last edited by Fat Cat on Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell

User avatar

Topic author
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 40971
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 悪を根付かせるな

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by Fat Cat »

Fat Cat wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:53 pm 1. Do the facts support a charge of 2nd degree homicide?
I ask this because of the coroner's report on toxicology from the deceased FG.

https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepi ... 6-3-20.pdf

- No injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngeal structures
- Fentanyl 11 ng/mL
- Norfentanyl 5.6 ng/mL (metabolite of Fentanyl)
- Methamphetamine 19 ng/mL (!)
- Blood concentrations of approximately 7 ng/ml or greater have been associated with fatalities where poly-substance use was involved.

Dude was higher than a Canada goose when he lost his life.
Image
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell

User avatar

nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 12781
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by nafod »

I've been choked out without bruising or other. It's pretty easy to shut off the blood to the noggin.

He has two autopsies, both said it was asphyxiation.

He was probably a power user who could withstand an elephant killing dose.

No idea on the charge.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar

Topic author
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 40971
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 悪を根付かせるな

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by Fat Cat »

nafod wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:38 am I've been choked out without bruising or other. It's pretty easy to shut off the blood to the noggin.

He has two autopsies, both said it was asphyxiation.
Being choked out is completely different than asphyxia, which requires compression of the throat, not the blood vessels on either side of it. To do that, with no damage to the windpipe or hyoid, is much less likely, particularly if the knee of the neck was the cause of death.

I understand that the two autopsies said it was asphyxiation, but they did not have the toxicology report, and one was paid for by (donors to) the family of FG and was clearly biased.

The coroner's report is very clear that he was going to die because of multi-substance overdose, and in the video, he's already saying he can't breathe before he's taken out of the car and restrained.
nafod wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:38 am He was probably a power user who could withstand an elephant killing dose.
This is possible to me, and also one must account for FG being a very large man, which may have allowed him to withstand higher dosages.

nafod wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:38 am No idea on the charge.
Me neither.
Image
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell


Spheroid_Physique
Corporal
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:26 am

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by Spheroid_Physique »

nafod wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:38 am I've been choked out without bruising or other. It's pretty easy to shut off the blood to the noggin.
Big difference between a properly applied choke targeting the blood vessels within a sport grappling context ( what I’m guessing you’re talking about here), and the degree of crushing that would be necessary for a knee on the neck to cause asphyxiation.

Floyd earned himself the results of that encounter by taking fentanyl and meth before attempting to pay for goods with counterfeit money. Blaming anyone else is false.

I need to buy some Metal Sports products. Fuck cancel culture, fuck BLM.
Last edited by Spheroid_Physique on Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar

baffled
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 8878
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:56 pm

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by baffled »

Fat Cat wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:53 pm Jury selection begins in Derek Chauvin's trial in the death of George Floyd. Here's what to expect

The death that sparked a worldwide movement took center stage in a heavily fortified Minneapolis courtroom on Tuesday as jury selection began in Derek Chauvin's trial in the death of George Floyd.

Floyd, a 46-year-old Black man, died on May 25, 2020, after Chauvin, then a Minneapolis Police officer, placed his knee on Floyd's neck for nearly eight minutes while Floyd pleaded, "I can't breathe." His final moments were captured on video, and his death led to widespread protests against police brutality and racism under the banner Black Lives Matter as well as incidents of unrest and looting.

Chauvin has pleaded not guilty to second-degree unintentional murder and second-degree manslaughter charges. In addition, a charge of third-degree murder that was dismissed in October is now in limbo after an appeals court ruled the trial judge should reconsider a motion to reinstate it, which could lead to a delay in the start of the trial.


https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/08/us/derek ... index.html


Fat Cat stay asking the hard questions. So...for the IGX brain trust:

1. Do the facts support a charge of 2nd degree homicide?

2. Was the knee compression an allowable use of force?

3. Did FG die of asphyxia or an overdose of Fentanyl?

4. What's the likely outcome in the courtroom?

5. What's the likely outcome in the streets?
1. I don't know, but I tend to think that there'd have to be some sort of contributing factor from the knee on neck, him losing consciousness and eventually dying. Would he have died in the squad car? Maybe, but he didn't die in a squad car.

2. If the department said it was, then yes. But allowable and excessive can both be true. For instance, a cop may find himself in a hand to hand situation where he has to punch, kick, headbutt or whatever, but once he's got control he probably should stop kicking the shit out of someone.

3. Fentanyl

4. He's going to fry

5. They'll burn no matter what
"Gentle in what you do, Firm in how you do it"
- Buck Brannaman

User avatar

Shafpocalypse Now
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21291
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:26 pm

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by Shafpocalypse Now »

1. Do the facts support a charge of 2nd degree homicide?
No

2. Was the knee compression an allowable use of force?
Yes. According to other Minneapolis PD cops

3. Did FG die of asphyxia or an overdose of Fentanyl?
Toss up. the OD data will be hard to ignore.

4. What's the likely outcome in the courtroom?
I'm going to say he's going to be a sacrificial lamb somehow, but the facts, just the fact, should show that Chauvin acted within the MPD standard operating procedures for the immobilization of a large man.

5. What's the likely outcome in the streets?
Either way, Antifa and Black Bloc is burning shit down.

User avatar

nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 12781
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by nafod »

The guy said he couldn't breathe while under their control, and then he stopped breathing while under their control, without them trying to help him.

The assumption if you have a knee on a guy's neck and back and he stops breathing, is that you need to do something different. He didn't.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar

Topic author
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 40971
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 悪を根付かせるな

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by Fat Cat »

nafod wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:21 pm The guy said he couldn't breathe while under their control, and then he stopped breathing while under their control, without them trying to help him.

The assumption if you have a knee on a guy's neck and back and he stops breathing, is that you need to do something different. He didn't.
So all you need to do is simulate shortness of breath and the cops have to let you go? Am I getting that right?
Image
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell

User avatar

Topic author
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 40971
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 悪を根付かせるな

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by Fat Cat »

Shafpocalypse Now wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:10 pm 1. Do the facts support a charge of 2nd degree homicide?
No

2. Was the knee compression an allowable use of force?
Yes. According to other Minneapolis PD cops

3. Did FG die of asphyxia or an overdose of Fentanyl?
Toss up. the OD data will be hard to ignore.

4. What's the likely outcome in the courtroom?
I'm going to say he's going to be a sacrificial lamb somehow, but the facts, just the fact, should show that Chauvin acted within the MPD standard operating procedures for the immobilization of a large man.

5. What's the likely outcome in the streets?
Either way, Antifa and Black Bloc is burning shit down.
I think all of your answers are very reasonable and logical. I am definitely not a legal expert, but I have to imagine the defense has a strong evidentiary basis for creating reasonable doubt in the murder charge against Chauvin. FG was highly intoxicated, huge, engaged in a crime, and when apprehended, he resisted arrest. It would have been better for the country if he hadn't died, but nothing of value was lost, TBH. At most, I can see some kind of callous disregard for safety charge sticking.
Image
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell

User avatar

newguy
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2843
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by newguy »

1. Not really. I don't know how you pull intention out of this. It seems a real stretch.
2. Yes. Knee compression allowed. I do not know if there are any guidelines for how long.
3. Asphyxia. Two autopsies say so. No evidence that he would have died had he not been kneeled on.
4. Jury selection 100%.
5. I'm not sure. You don't usually see the same amount of anger and angst twice for the same case.

Two interesting things - the report that he would have plead guilty but the deal was blocked. I don't know if this is common or not.

I'm not too smart with civil suit laws, but I have a feeling he is going to be screwed no matter how this plays out.

User avatar

newguy
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2843
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by newguy »

One thing I think -

Don't fight the cause of death. It's sort of immaterial here and why base your case on something you could lose? I would fight it on intent and allowable use of force.

Let the footage and and evidence show that the George Floyd was acting in such a way that the response, restraint by knee on neck, was allowed and appropriate.

Sometimes tragic things happen when you are dealing with people on drugs.

That is how my television trained lawyer mind would play it.

User avatar

Topic author
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 40971
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 悪を根付かせるな

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by Fat Cat »

newguy wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:03 pm 3. Asphyxia. Two autopsies say so. No evidence that he would have died had he not been kneeled on.
That's not true at all, at least as far as I understand it. The brother had heart disease and COVID-19 and was on an elephant's dose of meth and Fentanyl that was well into the lethal range. And he was recorded expressing shortness of breath before he was restrained. He was sitting in that car dying.
Image
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell

User avatar

Topic author
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 40971
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 悪を根付かせるな

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by Fat Cat »

newguy wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:07 pm Don't fight the cause of death. It's sort of immaterial here and why base your case on something you could lose? I would fight it on intent and allowable use of force.
Not sure about that either. It seems logical to assail the homicide determination using the toxicology report. No homicide means no murder charge.
Image
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell

User avatar

newguy
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2843
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by newguy »

Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:33 pm
newguy wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:03 pm 3. Asphyxia. Two autopsies say so. No evidence that he would have died had he not been kneeled on.
That's not true at all, at least as far as I understand it. The brother had heart disease and COVID-19 and was on an elephant's dose of meth and Fentanyl that was well into the lethal range. And he was recorded expressing shortness of breath before he was restrained. He was sitting in that car dying.
I guess the word evidence is the wrong one to use. We don't know that he would have died if he hadn't been kneeled on. It very well could have been the case, but we don't "know." We know that he was kneeled on and died, and you do have two autopsies that support this.

BUT and again, I'm no lawyer. Unless I see something I am missing, this seems like a really tough case to prosecute. How do you get to "beyond reasonable doubt.

Take the cause of death. Is it beyond reasonable doubt and crystal clear that it was from the kneeling on the neck.
No.

Intent. Can you really prove beyond reasonable doubt that the officer intended to kill him?
Not even close.

User avatar

nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 12781
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by nafod »

Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:14 pm
nafod wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:21 pm The guy said he couldn't breathe while under their control, and then he stopped breathing while under their control, without them trying to help him.

The assumption if you have a knee on a guy's neck and back and he stops breathing, is that you need to do something different. He didn't.
So all you need to do is simulate shortness of breath and the cops have to let you go? Am I getting that right?
Well, he actually passed out and stopped breathing.

Why weren’t they doing CPR?
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar

Topic author
Fat Cat
Jesus Christ®
Posts: 40971
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:54 pm
Location: 悪を根付かせるな

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by Fat Cat »

nafod wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:30 pm
Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:14 pm
nafod wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:21 pm The guy said he couldn't breathe while under their control, and then he stopped breathing while under their control, without them trying to help him.

The assumption if you have a knee on a guy's neck and back and he stops breathing, is that you need to do something different. He didn't.
So all you need to do is simulate shortness of breath and the cops have to let you go? Am I getting that right?
Well, he actually passed out and stopped breathing.

Why weren’t they doing CPR?
I can't answer that question, but they're not medical professionals, do we know for a fact that they were aware he was in actual medical distress? Usually they won't render aid until the threat is neutralized.
Image
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell

User avatar

Turdacious
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21252
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Upon the eternal throne of the great Republic of Turdistan

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by Turdacious »

Fat Cat wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:09 am
nafod wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:30 pm
Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:14 pm
nafod wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:21 pm The guy said he couldn't breathe while under their control, and then he stopped breathing while under their control, without them trying to help him.

The assumption if you have a knee on a guy's neck and back and he stops breathing, is that you need to do something different. He didn't.
So all you need to do is simulate shortness of breath and the cops have to let you go? Am I getting that right?
Well, he actually passed out and stopped breathing.

Why weren’t they doing CPR?
I can't answer that question, but they're not medical professionals, do we know for a fact that they were aware he was in actual medical distress? Usually they won't render aid until the threat is neutralized.
Is it even possible to safely give cpr to someone likely to fight you? Situations where that is possible seem pretty limited.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

User avatar

johno
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7901
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:36 pm

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by johno »

Not a fan of ^"chimp," which many could interpret as racist. But it's a fascinating subject.

For a conviction, the prosecution has to prove that Chauvin caused Floyd's death. People saw the video and instantly "knew" that Chauvin killed Floyd.
BUT there are other possible causes of death.

1) Positional/compressive asphyxia - This has killed people handcuffed & facedown when they can't expand their lungs to get adequate air on the inhale. Experts say that crucifixion causes asphyxia...There are certain positions that the body is not designed to maintain.
Floyd's handcuffed posture alone might have killed him.

To add to his problems, he had another cop kneeling on his back (IIRC, the asian cop), which compressed his lungs and inhibited breathing.
Positional asphyxia would also explain the absence of trauma to Floyd's throat; and the Fentanyl he took would complicate the issue by lowering his respiratory drive, as it does in heroin ODs.

2) Fentanyl. It's a killer.

So the prosecution will show the video, which looks terrible. And the defense will/should prove that there were at least two other possible causes for Floyd's death. Academically, it might just be a battle of expert witnesses about who/what killed Floyd. But I question whether the academic "right" answer will be the jury's answer. The publicity begs for a different venue for the trial.

If Not Guilty, then there will be mostly peaceful protests in the streets.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

User avatar

nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 12781
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by nafod »

Turdacious wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:52 am
Fat Cat wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:09 am
nafod wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:30 pm
Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:14 pm
nafod wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:21 pm The guy said he couldn't breathe while under their control, and then he stopped breathing while under their control, without them trying to help him.

The assumption if you have a knee on a guy's neck and back and he stops breathing, is that you need to do something different. He didn't.
So all you need to do is simulate shortness of breath and the cops have to let you go? Am I getting that right?
Well, he actually passed out and stopped breathing.

Why weren’t they doing CPR?
I can't answer that question, but they're not medical professionals, do we know for a fact that they were aware he was in actual medical distress? Usually they won't render aid until the threat is neutralized.
Is it even possible to safely give cpr to someone likely to fight you? Situations where that is possible seem pretty limited.
If he is fighting you, he doesn't need CPR.

The police are definitely trained in CPR, which includes a quick patient assessment to determine consciousness, breathing, and pulse. Exact same training I get yearly.

In this video, a Minneapolis firefighter and others repeatedly ask them to check his pulse since he is completely unresponsive. If he has no pulse, they're supposed to begin CPR immediately.

About the 8:30 mark.

Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar

newguy
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2843
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by newguy »

But you can prove Chauvin's actions killed GF and that still doesn't make it murder. Right?

All you need is reasonable doubt.

Gross negligence? Manslaughter.

But murder?

I mean, I don't know the laws on this but I'd guess they are all screwed in a civil trial.

But for a criminal 2nd degree murder?

"Yeah. My clients knee on the neck might have killed him. But so could have the drugs. And he was resisting arrest. "

User avatar

Turdacious
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21252
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Upon the eternal throne of the great Republic of Turdistan

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by Turdacious »

Is expecting a cop to have the same professional instincts as a firefighter (keeping on mine the different types of work they do and people they tend to deal with) reasonable? Asking that as a guy who thinks Chauvin should not be in the public service in at capacity.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

User avatar

nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 12781
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by nafod »

Turdacious wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:53 am Is expecting a cop to have the same professional instincts as a firefighter (keeping on mine the different types of work they do and people they tend to deal with) reasonable?
Cops respond to ambulance calls with EMTs all the time, or show up first to incidents that lead to ambulance calls. He's seen this plenty. He should have had some awareness, especially after lots of people, including a firefighter, are telling him to check the pulse. Pulse? Oh yeah, second step in CPR after checking for breathing.

He knew what he was doing.

I'd be curious to hear JohnO's thoughts. He was/is a paramedic?
Asking that as a guy who thinks Chauvin should not be in the public service in at capacity.
I'm with you there.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar

newguy
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2843
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:32 am

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by newguy »

I read that the Minnesota supreme court (or something like that) ruled that he could be tried for 3rd degree murder. Reading the language of it, much easier case for the prosecution. Not easy, but easier.

User avatar

johno
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 7901
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:36 pm

Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

Post by johno »

nafod wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:45 pm
I'd be curious to hear JohnO's thoughts. He was/is a paramedic?
I'm retired after thirty years as Fire Fighter/Captain and EMT. We were routinely on scene with PD before Paramedics arrived, so we got the patient handoff from the cops.

Minneapolis PD policies dictate how Chauvin should have treated Floyd.
In my little burg, cops were always happy to hand over medical patients to the FD.
And our cops always found "cop stuff" to do prior to our arrival, virtually never rendering first aid or CPR.

In the Floyd case, my guys would have gotten eye to eye with PD and said, "He's out, dude. We got this." And our cops would have let us treat Floyd, maybe even uncuffing him.
I didn't watch the firefighter comment part of the video, but cops & firefighters routinely tune out bystander comments & suggestions. They have to, in order to do their jobs.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

Post Reply