Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

Post by nafod »

Gene wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:15 pm
nafod wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:51 pm
Gene wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:32 am
So handwashing doesn't matter? Transmission through the eye balls don't matter? Virions in fecal matter don't matter?
Second order effects at best. You block the respiratory transmission (mouth to mouth) and the R0 number goes way below 1. R0 below 1 and the virus goes away.
You make it sound so obvious and simple. Your background entitles you to say these things because? You are a researcher in Epidemiology?

It is literally not that complicated. You identify the chain of transmission. You break it. The chain is respiratory.

But here are some other professionals. Early in the pandemic.

https://necsi.edu/why-a-5-week-lockdown ... p-covid-19

Revisited last month.

https://necsi.edu/covidzero-how-to-end- ... in-5-weeks
I don't have this data. Masks could work. You are aware that most people do not wear N95 masks?
They could (have). Or the KN95s. Plenty of time to have revved up the supply chain and got them out there. But we didn't, and we paid the price in deaths.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

Post by Gene »

newguy wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:56 pm Going back to the masks.

Masks work.
Where did this year's flu epidemic go? How many cases of the flu in the winter of 2020?

Might be a good point.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Gene wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:01 pm
newguy wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:56 pm Going back to the masks.

Masks work.
Where did this year's flu epidemic go? How many cases of the flu in the winter of 2020?

Might be a good point.
Last year I had some visitors to a lab. In the lab was a grad student who wears a mask because he is in the end game of beating back stage 4 lymphoma, and does maintenance chemo.

One of the visitors obviously had a bad cold or the flu. We figured the student's mask was enough. I cringe now, thinking about how we exposed the student to him. The student was smarter than us, and left for the day.

If it happens like that again, we'll tell him to Zoom it. There's been some lessons learned from this.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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nafod wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:15 pm
Gene wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:01 pm
newguy wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:56 pm Going back to the masks.

Masks work.
Where did this year's flu epidemic go? How many cases of the flu in the winter of 2020?

Might be a good point.
Last year I had some visitors to a lab. In the lab was a grad student who wears a mask because he is in the end game of beating back stage 4 lymphoma, and does maintenance chemo.

One of the visitors obviously had a bad cold or the flu. We figured the student's mask was enough. I cringe now, thinking about how we exposed the student to him. The student was smarter than us, and left for the day.

If it happens like that again, we'll tell him to Zoom it. There's been some lessons learned from this.
On the school level, it's one of those things we have been discussing a lot. We were so okay with exposing students and teachers to illness. A kid would come to school with the sniffles or a cough it it was fine. A week later six kids in the class would have sniffles and a cough. Teacher too.

On the one hand, no one ever died. But on the other....I don't want to get sick.

Transmissions of ALL types of illness at schools with the "layers of mitigation" has just stopped. And it's not only because kids are not coming to school sick anymore. (Not letting them.) Those kids who get sick were in school - presymptomatic - for days. Schools are just not seeing the waves of multiple sicknesses in one class (spread) at all because illnesses are not getting to spread like they used to. Kid gets sick at soccer or from cousins. Comes to school, classmates are not getting sick.

Again, schools that are using the current strategies.

Word on the street is we might be getting more directive that use of the mask combined with constant hand washing and cleaning is what is doing it - not as much the social distancing of classrooms.

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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Fat Cat wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:25 pm "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin
"Those who express their liberty by choosing to suffer deserve what they get." Newguy


But honestly, civilization IS sacrificing freedoms in order to have comfort and safety.

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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Fat Cat wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:25 pm "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin
https://www.mountvernon.org/library/dig ... onary-war/
"In the first years of the Revolutionary War, George Washington and his Continental Army faced a threat that proved deadlier than the British: a smallpox epidemic, lasting from 1775-1782. Infrequent outbreaks and wariness of inoculation made his troops very susceptible to the disease. After heavy losses in Boston and Quebec, Washington implemented the first mass immunization policy in American history. "

Look at the big brain on Franklin

Common cold: In the 18th century, most people believed that wet clothing and dampness in the air caused the common cold. However, Franklin observed that sailors, who were constantly wearing wet clothing, remained healthy. After considering the matter on and off for several years, he eventually concluded: "People often catch cold from one another when shut up together in small close rooms, coaches, &c. and when sitting near and conversing so as to breathe in each other's transpiration." Before the knowledge of viruses and germs, Franklin had determined that the common cold was passed between people through the air.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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newguy wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:04 pm
Fat Cat wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:25 pm "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin
"Those who express their liberty by choosing to suffer deserve what they get." Newguy


But honestly, civilization IS sacrificing freedoms in order to have comfort and safety.
On the contrary, civilization is about securing greater levels of freedom for people through compromise. Do you honestly imagine yourself to be LESS free than a caveman?
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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nafod wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:14 pm
Fat Cat wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:25 pm "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin
https://www.mountvernon.org/library/dig ... onary-war/
"In the first years of the Revolutionary War, George Washington and his Continental Army faced a threat that proved deadlier than the British: a smallpox epidemic, lasting from 1775-1782. Infrequent outbreaks and wariness of inoculation made his troops very susceptible to the disease. After heavy losses in Boston and Quebec, Washington implemented the first mass immunization policy in American history. "

Look at the big brain on Franklin

Common cold: In the 18th century, most people believed that wet clothing and dampness in the air caused the common cold. However, Franklin observed that sailors, who were constantly wearing wet clothing, remained healthy. After considering the matter on and off for several years, he eventually concluded: "People often catch cold from one another when shut up together in small close rooms, coaches, &c. and when sitting near and conversing so as to breathe in each other's transpiration." Before the knowledge of viruses and germs, Franklin had determined that the common cold was passed between people through the air.
I'm not sure what point you think you're making. I'm not sure you are either. Nobody disputes that some diseases can be communicated through the air. That's never been a point of argument on this thread. The question is whether masks are an effective remedy for that (hint: no), and also, whether they have any negative effects, which we have now ascertained that they do. By all means, keep your face panty on, but leave the rest of us alone.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Fat Cat wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:11 pm
nafod wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:14 pm
Fat Cat wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:25 pm "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin
https://www.mountvernon.org/library/dig ... onary-war/
"In the first years of the Revolutionary War, George Washington and his Continental Army faced a threat that proved deadlier than the British: a smallpox epidemic, lasting from 1775-1782. Infrequent outbreaks and wariness of inoculation made his troops very susceptible to the disease. After heavy losses in Boston and Quebec, Washington implemented the first mass immunization policy in American history. "

Look at the big brain on Franklin

Common cold: In the 18th century, most people believed that wet clothing and dampness in the air caused the common cold. However, Franklin observed that sailors, who were constantly wearing wet clothing, remained healthy. After considering the matter on and off for several years, he eventually concluded: "People often catch cold from one another when shut up together in small close rooms, coaches, &c. and when sitting near and conversing so as to breathe in each other's transpiration." Before the knowledge of viruses and germs, Franklin had determined that the common cold was passed between people through the air.
I'm not sure what point you think you're making. I'm not sure you are either. Nobody disputes that some diseases can be communicated through the air. That's never been a point of argument on this thread. The question is whether masks are an effective remedy for that (hint: no), and also, whether they have any negative effects, which we have now ascertained that they do. By all means, keep your face panty on, but leave the rest of us alone.
Ben Franklin and the rest of the revolutionary brothers think you're a dumbass, is the point.

But by all means keep the virus circulating in the community so we can kill off the old and immune compromised.
Don’t believe everything you think.

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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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nafod wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:24 pm Ben Franklin and the rest of the revolutionary brothers think you're a dumbass, is the point.

But by all means keep the virus circulating in the community so we can kill off the old and immune compromised.
You're becoming emotional. Ben Franklin is dead, and I can't circulate a virus I don't have. I will continue to go about my life in much the way I always have, and you can continue to cower at home. I'm sure you set a fine example for your family, in other respects.
Last edited by Fat Cat on Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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nafod wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:24 pm
Fat Cat wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:11 pm
nafod wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:14 pm
Fat Cat wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:25 pm "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin
https://www.mountvernon.org/library/dig ... onary-war/
"In the first years of the Revolutionary War, George Washington and his Continental Army faced a threat that proved deadlier than the British: a smallpox epidemic, lasting from 1775-1782. Infrequent outbreaks and wariness of inoculation made his troops very susceptible to the disease. After heavy losses in Boston and Quebec, Washington implemented the first mass immunization policy in American history. "

Look at the big brain on Franklin

Common cold: In the 18th century, most people believed that wet clothing and dampness in the air caused the common cold. However, Franklin observed that sailors, who were constantly wearing wet clothing, remained healthy. After considering the matter on and off for several years, he eventually concluded: "People often catch cold from one another when shut up together in small close rooms, coaches, &c. and when sitting near and conversing so as to breathe in each other's transpiration." Before the knowledge of viruses and germs, Franklin had determined that the common cold was passed between people through the air.
I'm not sure what point you think you're making. I'm not sure you are either. Nobody disputes that some diseases can be communicated through the air. That's never been a point of argument on this thread. The question is whether masks are an effective remedy for that (hint: no), and also, whether they have any negative effects, which we have now ascertained that they do. By all means, keep your face panty on, but leave the rest of us alone.
Ben Franklin and the rest of the revolutionary brothers think you're a dumbass, is the point.

But by all means keep the virus circulating in the community so we can kill off the old and immune compromised.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Fat Cat wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:26 pm ...and you can continue to cower at home.
JFC. Peak stupidity

I’ve worked at the lab with others throughout this thing, traveled between states, visited museums, continued volunteer EMS, ate at restaurants outside, cared for elderly neighbors, paddled and rode and skied miles and days, etc.

The precautions work. It is that simple.
Don’t believe everything you think.

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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Fat Cat wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:09 pm
newguy wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:04 pm
Fat Cat wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:25 pm "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin
"Those who express their liberty by choosing to suffer deserve what they get." Newguy


But honestly, civilization IS sacrificing freedoms in order to have comfort and safety.
On the contrary, civilization is about securing greater levels of freedom for people through compromise. Do you honestly imagine yourself to be LESS free than a caveman?
As with a lot of things, it comes down to defining our terms.

What is freedom?

Because from a different perspective then, the wearing of masks allows us greater freedom than not wearing masks. We are able to gather in larger numbers without spreading illness. We are able to move about more freely among our community without spreading illness or getting sick from community members.

In the same way seatbelts secure more freedom. By taking away our freedom to choose whether or not we wear seat belts, we gain more freedom of movement by ensuring that accidents have less severe consequences.

In terms of the individual, how do you differentiate between freedom and liberty? Are they the same thing? You quote Ben Franklin and the quote seems to imply that sacrificing liberty for safety is not a sacrifice worth making.

I actually think in many cases it is worth making and we do it all the time.


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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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nafod wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:58 pm It is literally not that complicated. You identify the chain of transmission. You break it. The chain is respiratory.

But here are some other professionals. Early in the pandemic.

https://necsi.edu/why-a-5-week-lockdown ... p-covid-19

Revisited last month.

https://necsi.edu/covidzero-how-to-end- ... in-5-weeks


I don't have this data. Masks could work. You are aware that most people do not wear N95 masks?
This is controversial. At least one study in China produced viral samples from sewage from SARS patients.

"During SARS 2002 outbreak, viral RNA was found in the sewage water of two hospitals in Beijing, which were treating patients with SARS [5]. Subsequently, the retrieved virus was found to remain infectious for two days at 20 °C and up to 24 h at 38 *C. Similarly, MERS- COV was known to survive more than 2 days at an average temperature of 20oC and was suggested to have fecal- oral transmission [5]. Thus, going by past experience of mutated corona viruses of animal origin, it seems to be a potent source."

Here is the conclusion from this article.

"Public education regarding individual hygienic measures like frequent hand washing, covering pot after defecation, flushing, cleaning with bleach, avoiding open defecation and restricted use of public toilets need to be advocated proactively along with social distancing especially in a country like India where fecal-oral transmission of diseases is a major public health problem due to lesser degree of sanitation practices."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7380893/


In China the anal sample route is used to cast a broader net over suspected infected people.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021012 ... id-testing


Masks may be necessary but not sufficient to contain Covid.

I had professional training in Hepatitis. I was vaccinated for Hep B. Handwashing is a big deal to contain Hep. Might be for Covid too.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Gene wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:51 pm
nafod wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:58 pm It is literally not that complicated. You identify the chain of transmission. You break it. The chain is respiratory.

But here are some other professionals. Early in the pandemic.

https://necsi.edu/why-a-5-week-lockdown ... p-covid-19

Revisited last month.

https://necsi.edu/covidzero-how-to-end- ... in-5-weeks


I don't have this data. Masks could work. You are aware that most people do not wear N95 masks?
This is controversial. At least one study in China produced viral samples from sewage from SARS patients.

"During SARS 2002 outbreak, viral RNA was found in the sewage water of two hospitals in Beijing, which were treating patients with SARS [5]. Subsequently, the retrieved virus was found to remain infectious for two days at 20 °C and up to 24 h at 38 *C. Similarly, MERS- COV was known to survive more than 2 days at an average temperature of 20oC and was suggested to have fecal- oral transmission [5]. Thus, going by past experience of mutated corona viruses of animal origin, it seems to be a potent source."

Here is the conclusion from this article.

"Public education regarding individual hygienic measures like frequent hand washing, covering pot after defecation, flushing, cleaning with bleach, avoiding open defecation and restricted use of public toilets need to be advocated proactively along with social distancing especially in a country like India where fecal-oral transmission of diseases is a major public health problem due to lesser degree of sanitation practices."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7380893/


In China the anal sample route is used to cast a broader net over suspected infected people.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2021012 ... id-testing


Masks may be necessary but not sufficient to contain Covid.

I had professional training in Hepatitis. I was vaccinated for Hep B. Handwashing is a big deal to contain Hep. Might be for Covid too.
You can detect outbreaks of Covid by testing sewage samples. For America, sewage is not really a spread factor. Most of Americans use toilets that flush. So you are only exposed to your own fecal matter, and if it has Covid it's because you already have it.. I would suspect that portable restrooms, that do not flush etc. are problematic.


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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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newguy wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:32 pmYou can detect outbreaks of Covid by testing sewage samples. For America, sewage is not really a spread factor. Most of Americans use toilets that flush. So you are only exposed to your own fecal matter, and if it has Covid it's because you already have it.. I would suspect that portable restrooms, that do not flush etc. are problematic.
How about people not handwashing after taking a crap? Hep A is passed around that way.

Is it significant? Greater than zero, probably isn't as dominant as coughing.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Gene wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:23 am
newguy wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:32 pmYou can detect outbreaks of Covid by testing sewage samples. For America, sewage is not really a spread factor. Most of Americans use toilets that flush. So you are only exposed to your own fecal matter, and if it has Covid it's because you already have it.. I would suspect that portable restrooms, that do not flush etc. are problematic.
How about people not handwashing after taking a crap? Hep A is passed around that way.

Is it significant? Greater than zero, probably isn't as dominant as coughing.
Funny you post this. At the school level (elementary to middle) we got word this week not forget that hand washing is an essential part of of all of this. To not let all the masks and social distancing have us forget that our hand washing plans and protocols are essential and mandatory as well.

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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Hepatitis A lasts a LOT longer than Covid. Months in the right aqueous condition. Best for Covid appears to be 72 hrs under perfect conditions on plastic. On a copper surface it's 4 hrs. Cardboard gets 24.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Gene wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:51 pm Masks may be necessary but not sufficient to contain Covid.
It is all about the transmission number R0. If that number goes below 1 (which means each infected person infects fewer than 1 other person) the disease goes away. Masks may not eliminate all transmissions, but they put a huge dent in R0. Better masks = deeper dent = faster dissipation. Same for better ventilation.

So hand washing and avoiding contaminated spray wouldn't hurt, for sure. Can only drop R0, and lots of really good reasons to do it anyway. But the main point of attack for COVID is respiratory spread.

Of course more contagious variants drive R0 up. But more people vaccinated and more who have had it already drive it down. Behavior influences R0 also. Its both a physics, biological, and behavioral problem.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Turdacious wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:42 am Oh Christ. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=210149&sid=d7a5cb2c ... 7e82b5fd9a
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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nafod wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:11 pm
Gene wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:51 pm Masks may be necessary but not sufficient to contain Covid.
It is all about the transmission number R0. If that number goes below 1 (which means each infected person infects fewer than 1 other person) the disease goes away. Masks may not eliminate all transmissions, but they put a huge dent in R0. Better masks = deeper dent = faster dissipation. Same for better ventilation.

So hand washing and avoiding contaminated spray wouldn't hurt, for sure. Can only drop R0, and lots of really good reasons to do it anyway. But the main point of attack for COVID is respiratory spread.

Of course more contagious variants drive R0 up. But more people vaccinated and more who have had it already drive it down. Behavior influences R0 also. Its both a physics, biological, and behavioral problem.
So we basically agree. Universal precautions make sense.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

Post by nafod »

Gene wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:55 pm
nafod wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:11 pm
Gene wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:51 pm Masks may be necessary but not sufficient to contain Covid.
It is all about the transmission number R0. If that number goes below 1 (which means each infected person infects fewer than 1 other person) the disease goes away. Masks may not eliminate all transmissions, but they put a huge dent in R0. Better masks = deeper dent = faster dissipation. Same for better ventilation.

So hand washing and avoiding contaminated spray wouldn't hurt, for sure. Can only drop R0, and lots of really good reasons to do it anyway. But the main point of attack for COVID is respiratory spread.

Of course more contagious variants drive R0 up. But more people vaccinated and more who have had it already drive it down. Behavior influences R0 also. Its both a physics, biological, and behavioral problem.
So we basically agree. Universal precautions make sense.
Indeed!
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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newguy wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:05 pm

Transmissions of ALL types of illness at schools with the "layers of mitigation" has just stopped. And it's not only because kids are not coming to school sick anymore. (Not letting them.) Those kids who get sick were in school - presymptomatic - for days. Schools are just not seeing the waves of multiple sicknesses in one class (spread) at all because illnesses are not getting to spread like they used to. Kid gets sick at soccer or from cousins. Comes to school, classmates are not getting sick.

Again, schools that are using the current strategies.

Word on the street is we might be getting more directive that use of the mask combined with constant hand washing and cleaning is what is doing it - not as much the social distancing of classrooms.
This is a philosophical question as much as a medical one. All living organisms live in constant interaction with each other, and viruses, parasites and bacteria are part of that. As civilisation developed we interfered with the natural course of life, death and health considerably. The question is, what's the overall effect of this intervention, beneficial or detrimental.

Exposure to bugs modifies the immune system. That's why as you gel older you get sick less. And that's why flu mortality is so high in the old - the bugs that manage to get through their immune system are super aggressive.

What's the long term effect of reducing respiratory infections among school kids? There are couple of studies demonstrating that kids with better hygiene tend to get more respiratory infections and, more significantly, asthma. It seems the immune system needs to be occupied with something or it will turn on its own host. Will the reduction of exposure to viruses lead to more auto-immune disease in the future?

Nobody knows. What looks good in the short term may turn out to be detrimental some time later. And vice versa.

Now, I am not saying ignore covid and don't worry about the prevention of infection at all. I think though that it would be useful to also look at ways to strengthen the immune system, not only fence it from threats. Sauna, fasting, regular exercise, sleep, exposure to sunlight, cold exposure, managing stress etc., in no particular order. Vaccination is great, and vaccines saved millions of lives, no doubt about it. The question is, what if the virus mutates sufficiently to make tge current vaccine ineffective? What do you do then?
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