How to raise an atheist in seven easy steps

[Holland Oates]

And for the record I'm not officially atheist. I'm just not a true believer.

My wife and children are believers and I support them in their choice. Much like Johnny C's plan I attend da Jesus House with them when I'm home on Sundays.

[nafod]

For you to tell me that you really believe there isn't a God or a human soul yet you still live your life believing "We owe it to them (people, planet and life in general) to treat each other well" means you're either dishonest with yourself or you're a damn idiot. A true atheist -- someone who 110% believes in atheist philosophy -- could not be anything other than a cold-blooded narcissistic psychopath. To be anything other than that while still claiming you're an atheist just makes you a hypocrite.

Actually, that is complete utter bullshit twice over. First,taking the most purely scientific reductionist view, we're here to make sure our DNA carries on and should therefore always act in that stead, which leads to cooperation and caring about others. The closer they are to you, the more you care in general. Sound familiar to how life works?

Second, cooperation has proven to be in our selfish interests even apart of carrying on our progeny. See Axelrod's Evolution of Cooperation for an intro.

Belief in higher beings and such is ubiquitous across all human societies. It is something we've evolved to have, most likely to externalize the need to cooperate and care. You can drop religion and still have the underlying forcing function.

[Gin Master]

I don't do these arguments anymore. If you believe, show it through your good works. If you don't believe, it's also nice to help out. If God is the only thing keeping one from being an asshole, there is something wrong.

[Pinky]

There is no god. I am as sure of this as Turd is that there is one.

Back to the original topic. This is a very strong form of atheism. This is faith, just as Turd's beliefs are. Raising a child to believe this might not be very different from raising the a child to accept any other religious belief that is uncommon among those the child interacts with.

But Fat Cat and others are right. Why would you want to do this?

[Blaidd Drwg]

who says I raise my child to believe either one? who says that anyone does? it's utterly ridiculous. if you do not believe in something, it simply does not factor into my daily life..it's a philosophical exercise. I also do not believe in ghosts, I am fairly firm in this belief, but the amount of effort it takes to maintain this faith is exactly nil. nor do I care if this knowledge is passed on.


i'm glad to be restored to the ranks of HRDKOR atheist...I was searching diligently for OURMOSTSACREDTEXT of atheism so that i could manage to stop loving my fellow man.

[Blaidd Drwg]

the secondary and highly amusing set of assumptions about atheism that come into play here are illuminating. As a long time student of the bible and a parent who tries as much as possible to be honest with my kids, we have more in depth open ended discussions about Religion, Jesus, faith than any other family in our peer group and certainly far more than when I was growing up.

Here's what some people think, here's what I think, here's some books, you decide.

[Pinky]

I can't see how a bonafide, hardcore, true to the bone atheist can possibly 'love' a family. What would be the point if every other aspect of your life is simply for the collective survival of us as organisms?

I'm in the "atheist lite" or agnostic camp depending on where the line is drawn, but I have two answers for this.

The less romantic is to say that we could simply be "programed" by evolution to love our families. Other animals might not have this programing to the same extent because they aren't sentient.

But beyond all of that, I don't know why love needs to have a point. I don't know that I love my daughter because it has some higher purpose. I know I love her because I observe it in myself as clearly as I can see her fingers and toes.

[Pinky]

who says I raise my child to believe either one? who says that anyone does? it's utterly ridiculous.

I didn't intend to comment on your parenting, but on the original topic of how to raise an atheist. It's a poorly defined question because differences in the definition of atheism that might seem small to someone who thinks any "atheist" is going to hell might be very important to the question's answer.

It is a ridiculous question.

[Hebrew Hammer]

As to Turd's topic, we all give our children a moral sentiment. If we don't believe in God, and tell our children to read books and decide, the moral sentiment we give them is that non-belief is the preferred choice. Own up to it - you're raising your children with a preference for atheism - and don't try to dodge it. If you're uneasy owning up to it, ask yourself why.

Another problem with"let the kids decide when they get older" is that this presumes we're all rational, healthy creatures -- perhaps like computers with slightly different values and thinking software -- and that we'll make rational decisions and lead satisfying lives. Life isn't like that. We all live lives of quiet desperation -- sex, death, etc. Read Hoffer's the True Believer or Becker's Denial of Death. If parents give their kids no foundation of core beliefs other than "read books and figure it out yourself," they're likely to end up one of the automatom masses or find some set of beliefs to hang onto, which is likely to be by serendipity.

[Blaidd Drwg]

You remind me of a Calvinist I once knew. So much predestination. Quiet desperation? What the fuck is wrong with you?

I'll not read your silly book. I trust my instincts as a parent. I like the me I turned out to be and I pretty much parent my kids the way my parents did.

I'll just go ahead and love my kids, we'll see how that works out.

[Hebrew Hammer]

I like the me I turned out to be and I pretty much parent my kids the way my parents did.

This is another problem with atheism. Absent a countercultural imperative - how one should act - the default is "I'm a great guy just the way I am."

Real question - do you pass on your Jew-hate to your kids or is that limited to your virtual life?

[Holland Oates]

I am glad a lot of you have religion. Because if you truly believe without it everyone would heathenistic monsters then I can't imagine the vile shit you would do without it.

[Blaidd Drwg]

I like the me I turned out to be and I pretty much parent my kids the way my parents did.

This is another problem with atheism. Absent a countercultural imperative - how one should act - the default is "I'm a great guy just the way I am."

Real question - do you pass on your Jew-hate to your kids or is that limited to your virtual life?

Thinking, "I'm a pretty good guy" is the basis for all cultural norms. It also has nothing to do with atheism..whatsoever.

I don't hate Jews.

But then, let's not make this another simpering victim thread for you to wallow in your desperation. Go be present in your life. Be where you are, try doing what you are doing. Coax some life out of that soft flabby corpse of yours before it's too late.

[Pinky]

If parents give their kids no foundation of core beliefs other than "read books and figure it out yourself," they're likely to end up one of the automatom masses or find some set of beliefs to hang onto, which is likely to be by serendipity.

Reading and thinking for yourself leads to being an automaton, but inculcation does not? I did not know that.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Thinking, "I'm a pretty good guy" is the basis for all cultural norms.

No, it's not. It's the basis for life as the thoughtless running of the herd.

Religion is a radical critique - it tells me to love my neighbor, where I'd be otherwise inclined not to think too highly of many of them. It tells me to give at least 10% of my money to charity, when I'd be otherwise inclined to give away less. It tells me not to gossip or listen to gossip, no matter how much I want to speak or listen. It tells me that God put me here for a purpose, and that only I can recognize my purpose and that's my life challenge. Thus religion constantly criticizes, inspires, and prods. It tells me I'm a fool if I'm contented to think "I'm a pretty good guy."

[Pinky]

I take back everything I said. HH has convinced me that the original question was a very good one.

[Hebrew Hammer]

If parents give their kids no foundation of core beliefs other than "read books and figure it out yourself," they're likely to end up one of the automatom masses or find some set of beliefs to hang onto, which is likely to be by serendipity.

Reading and thinking for yourself leads to being an automaton, but inculcation does not? I did not know that.

Depends on how you view the mind? Is it guided primarily by core moral sentiments filtered with reasoning, or is it a computer that rationally processes and reaches results? I think it's the former, and that every parent should try to inculcate core moral sentiments in their kids, whether by religion or otherwise. Then when they read books, they do it with an intelligent filter.

[Turdacious]

Atheism isn't necessarily the belief that there are no gods, it can also simply be expressed as realizing there exists no suitable scientific evidence that supports the existence of said gods.

There's a very large distinction between the two. Note that it also requires a competent understanding of how science "works" (in terms of evidence, hypotheses, testing, peer-reviewing, etc.).

You're blurring the distinction between atheist and agnostic.

[Blaidd Drwg]

HH..you are so steeped in your own bullshit you have no idea how the world actually works. You're right, religion is a radical critique but it is pretty far off of what we set as a norm. You should have spent a little more time in Anthropology or comparative religions. No culture uses some idealized sky pixie to set norms. The sky pixie represents the idealized version of what we wish were true to contrast with what we know to actually be true.

[Blaidd Drwg]

[that every parent should try to inculcate core moral sentiments in their kids, whether by religion or otherwise.

so it is possible to be moral without believing is god?

oh dear. you stumbled on rational thought.

[nafod]

As to Turd's topic, we all give our children a moral sentiment. If we don't believe in God, and tell our children to read books and decide, the moral sentiment we give them is that non-belief is the preferred choice.

Non sequitur.

HH, I don't see that believing or not believing is a "moral sentiment". You are mixing apples and oranges. It is perfectly possible to teach your kids to do the following without carrying along all of the other baggage that goes with a religion. Or you could have two different religions that are crazy different, one worshipping 20 Gods and another monotheistic, but believe in these things as moral principles:
- Remember the sabbath day (take one day off out of 7 to give thanks (to whatever))
- Honour thy father and thy mother
- not kill
- not commit adultery
- not steal
- not bear false witness
- not covet

[Hebrew Hammer]

[that every parent should try to inculcate core moral sentiments in their kids, whether by religion or otherwise.

so it is possible to be moral without believing is god?

For an individual, certainly. For a society, the track record is not good. Revolutionary France, the communists, and the Nazis tried to do away with God so as to create utopia, but it ended up in bloody tyranny

[Hebrew Hammer]

As to Turd's topic, we all give our children a moral sentiment. If we don't believe in God, and tell our children to read books and decide, the moral sentiment we give them is that non-belief is the preferred choice.

Non sequitur.

HH, I don't see that believing or not believing is a "moral sentiment". You are mixing apples and oranges. It is perfectly possible to teach your kids to do the following without carrying along all of the other baggage that goes with a religion. Or you could have two different religions that are crazy different, one worshipping 20 Gods and another monotheistic, but believe in these things as moral principles:
- Remember the sabbath day (take one day off out of 7 to give thanks (to whatever))
- Honour thy father and thy mother
- not kill
- not commit adultery
- not steal
- not bear false witness
- not covet

I think we agree. Believing or not believing is a moral sentiment, but "believing" can range far. To be real, in my book, it must be foundational. I think that's what you're saying also. Giving kids that foundation, if it's real and good, gives them an internal moral compass for life, even though their thinking will evolve over time. It's different from saying "go read and figure it out yourself."

[Blaidd Drwg]

[that every parent should try to inculcate core moral sentiments in their kids, whether by religion or otherwise.

so it is possible to be moral without believing is god?

For an individual, certainly. For a society, the track record is not good. Revolutionary France, the communists, and the Nazis tried to do away with God so as to create utopia, but it ended up in bloody tyranny

Damnit HH.

We were doing so well.

[Gin Master]

I like the me I turned out to be and I pretty much parent my kids the way my parents did.

I'll just go ahead and love my kids, we'll see how that works out.

ORLLY?

Your life choices led you to spend your last birthday waking up in an out-of-town hotel room next to some hairy dude and a handful of beer bottles.