Jordan Peterson

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Turdacious
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Sangoma wrote: Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:29 am
Fat Cat wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:47 pm I can't speak for Turd, but the whole "that wasn't real communism" shtick is a very tired stratagem in the apologetics of Marxism. If the Soviet Union, Poland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, East Germany, Angola, Ethiopia, Somalia, Afghanistan, Cambodia, South Yemen, China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam all represent failed attempts at Marxism in action, and none of them represent the real article, it's probably fair to say that it is because the idea itself is a failure.
To be honest, I don't want to argue about Marxism, Communism, Socialism and Leninism. I had more than my - obligatory - share of studying all of this in my growing up years in USSR. Communism is a strictly theoretical system imagined by Marx. Some tenets of which are: abolition of the state and private property in favour of common ownership of the means of production. Obviously, this was not the case in USSR and other countries on your list. What Peterson fails to mention is Leninism, the practical application of the ideas of Marx in order to make work in real life. In the process he broke basic principles on which Marx based his theory of social evolution to Communist society, effectively establishing the dictatorship of the Communist Party. The mix up of USSR and Marxism reminds me in a way of the Nazis highjacking the philosophy of Nietzsche. Curiously, some coined Peterson's critique of the left as Nietzschean.
That's a really oblique way of calling Peterson a Nazi. You're better than this.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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No animals were harmed as the result of my posts. Though many will argue that wasting my breath replying to you has contributed to the unnecessary carbon emission into the atmosphere.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Sangoma wrote: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:40 am No animals were harmed as the result of my posts. Though many will argue that wasting my breath replying to you has contributed to the unnecessary carbon emission into the atmosphere.
This post works best if read in the proper voice.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Why is Peterson in a coma in Russia?
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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https://newrepublic.com/article/156829/ ... n-peterson
So it was something of a surprise to learn, in early February, that Peterson had spent eight days in a medically induced coma at an unnamed clinic in Russia. Peterson’s daughter Mikhaila, a 28-year-old food blogger, posted a brief but dramatic video claiming that she and her father had traveled to Russia in early January seeking an unorthodox treatment for his physical dependence on the drug clonazepam. Dependency goes against the core tenets of Peterson’s philosophical brand: stoicism, self-reliance, the power of the will over circumstance and environment. “No one gets away with anything, ever, so take responsibility for your own life,” he admonished in his bestselling self-help book 12 Rules for Life.
This is the curious part:
Mikhaila has consistently and emphatically claimed that her father is suffering strictly from physical dependence, and not from addiction. And it is important to stress that the two are distinct. Dependence simply means that a person gets withdrawal symptoms when they stop taking a drug. The National Institute on Drug Abuse defines addiction as “compulsive use despite harmful consequences.” It is possible to be dependent on a drug without being addicted to it.
So far, there is no evidence that Peterson displayed any of the so-called “aberrant behaviors” that define addiction. But again, all we have to go on is reports from his daughter, whose family has a strong financial incentive to spin away any suggestion that the man who made his name engaging in a kind of intellectual Spartan cosplay is hopelessly addicted to a sedative. In fact, Mikhaila has jokingly alluded to how bad an addiction diagnosis would be for her father’s lucrative self-help brand, which purports to rid adherents of weakness through grit and self-sacrifice. “We figured we should let people know [the facts] before some tabloid finds out and publishes [that] Jordan Peterson, ‘self help guru,’ is on meth or something,” Mikhaila said in a video update after Peterson checked himself into rehab in the U.S.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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And of course:
Mikhaila blames Western medicine for her father’s predicament, and not just because Western doctors prescribed the pills. Allegedly, Peterson’s pneumonia was the fault of a North American hospital, too, though she doesn’t say how she knows that. Mikhaila is essentially weaving her own “hero’s journey” into her father’s ordeal, one in which she brought him to a far-flung clinic that had “the guts” to do what Western doctors wouldn’t. It’s a tale that burnishes her brand as a wellness influencer and shoves aside awkward questions about whether the treatment harmed Peterson.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Benzos are evil. Doctors who prescribe them are irresponsible, at best. The Petersons are garden-variety hucksters.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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No drugs are evil. Every drug is supposed to be used for its indications.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:06 pm Benzos are evil. Doctors who prescribe them are irresponsible, at best. The Petersons are garden-variety hucksters.
What makes him even more garden-variety is his superhuman ability to toss a word salad. If you play the "Jordan Peterson or Word Salad" game, you will lose.
*Maybe" Deepak can throw more random words together than Peterson. That would be an epic salad toss-off.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Sangoma wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:38 am No drugs are evil. Every drug is supposed to be used for its indications.
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Indication: morning sickness.

Dumbass.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Sangoma wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:23 pm https://newrepublic.com/article/156829/ ... n-peterson
So it was something of a surprise to learn, in early February, that Peterson had spent eight days in a medically induced coma at an unnamed clinic in Russia. Peterson’s daughter Mikhaila, a 28-year-old food blogger, posted a brief but dramatic video claiming that she and her father had traveled to Russia in early January seeking an unorthodox treatment for his physical dependence on the drug clonazepam. Dependency goes against the core tenets of Peterson’s philosophical brand: stoicism, self-reliance, the power of the will over circumstance and environment. “No one gets away with anything, ever, so take responsibility for your own life,” he admonished in his bestselling self-help book 12 Rules for Life.
This is the curious part:
Mikhaila has consistently and emphatically claimed that her father is suffering strictly from physical dependence, and not from addiction. And it is important to stress that the two are distinct. Dependence simply means that a person gets withdrawal symptoms when they stop taking a drug. The National Institute on Drug Abuse defines addiction as “compulsive use despite harmful consequences.” It is possible to be dependent on a drug without being addicted to it.
So far, there is no evidence that Peterson displayed any of the so-called “aberrant behaviors” that define addiction. But again, all we have to go on is reports from his daughter, whose family has a strong financial incentive to spin away any suggestion that the man who made his name engaging in a kind of intellectual Spartan cosplay is hopelessly addicted to a sedative. In fact, Mikhaila has jokingly alluded to how bad an addiction diagnosis would be for her father’s lucrative self-help brand, which purports to rid adherents of weakness through grit and self-sacrifice. “We figured we should let people know [the facts] before some tabloid finds out and publishes [that] Jordan Peterson, ‘self help guru,’ is on meth or something,” Mikhaila said in a video update after Peterson checked himself into rehab in the U.S.
Complete hatchet job of a piece. One of the big themes of 12 rules for life is addiction and recovery neither the narrative nor his advice is as the author describes.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Is going to Russian for a coma in the plan? This seems like really weird behavior.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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The hostility toward Peterson puzzles me. IMO Peterson's fundamental message is to make the most of your life, to expect obstacles along the way and to take them as best you can. Each of us is on our individual hero's journey.

What agitates such hate?

*****

Or is it that "hierarchies happen"? Seems obvious to me.
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Are full of passionate intensity.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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You answered your own question. Liberals hate those things. They want everyone to be either a victim or a guilty ashamed oppressor.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Klonopin? I had a bout with anxiety and took it for several months. Then I didn't need it anymore and stopped taking it. Easy. I never even thought about it.

Well, I suppose all people are different, but to go to Russia and put yourself into a coma?

This doesn't pass the smell test.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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I was on Klonopin for anxiety, stopped it suddenly and had the anxiety attack to end all anxiety attacks for about 3 days. But then I was okay. I shouldn't have stopped it suddenly. But, I thought the medically induced coma stuff was for heroin?
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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I don't have any hate towards Peterson or his daughter. But the whole event does look seriously fucked up. The fact that details of the affair are vague - what were the doses, stating, maximal, time frame, the initial detox etc. - adds to the strangeness. As well as the insistence that "it's dependence, not addiction!" Who gives a shit and why would they care if someone does?

His aggression in public debates created the sense of his own infallibility, and I think that's why a lot of folk are hostile about what's happened to him. Take responsibility on one hand, and it's Western medicine that is to blame on the other.

At the end of the day we are all weak and helpless. There is no certainty and free will is at best very limited. Kindness and compassion is what may save the world (aggression and crusades already haven't), and that's what Peterson was lacking in his life teachings.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Fat Cat wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:34 pm
Sangoma wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:38 am No drugs are evil. Every drug is supposed to be used for its indications.
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Indication: morning sickness.

Dumbass.
The fact that the drug hasn't been properly researched and pushed to the market by the Pharma doesn't make it evil. If you don't understand it it makes you dumbass, not me. Thalidomide is still useful for quite few conditions.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Sangoma wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:02 pm I don't have any hate towards Peterson or his daughter. But the whole event does look seriously fucked up. The fact that details of the affair are vague - what were the doses, stating, maximal, time frame, the initial detox etc. - adds to the strangeness. As well as the insistence that "it's dependence, not addiction!" Who gives a shit and why would they care if someone does?

His aggression in public debates created the sense of his own infallibility, and I think that's why a lot of folk are hostile about what's happened to him. Take responsibility on one hand, and it's Western medicine that is to blame on the other.

At the end of the day we are all weak and helpless. There is no certainty and free will is at best very limited. Kindness and compassion is what may save the world (aggression and crusades already haven't), and that's what Peterson was lacking in his life teachings.
Peterson seems like a decent sort. This could bring a new depth to his message.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Sangoma wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:02 pmKindness and compassion is what may save the world (aggression and crusades already haven't), and that's what Peterson was lacking in his life teachings.
You must be thinking of a different Jordan Peterson.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Sangoma wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:02 pm I don't have any hate towards Peterson or his daughter. But the whole event does look seriously fucked up. The fact that details of the affair are vague - what were the doses, stating, maximal, time frame, the initial detox etc. - adds to the strangeness. As well as the insistence that "it's dependence, not addiction!" Who gives a shit and why would they care if someone does?

His aggression in public debates created the sense of his own infallibility, and I think that's why a lot of folk are hostile about what's happened to him. Take responsibility on one hand, and it's Western medicine that is to blame on the other.

At the end of the day we are all weak and helpless. There is no certainty and free will is at best very limited. Kindness and compassion is what may save the world (aggression and crusades already haven't), and that's what Peterson was lacking in his life teachings.
How are you gonna attack someone you've never met for having a drug problem and then preach kindness and compassion?
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Sangoma wrote: Sun Mar 15, 2020 11:02 pm His aggression in public debates created the sense of his own infallibility, and I think that's why a lot of folk are hostile about what's happened to him.
No and no. JP has locked horns with some people, several of whom were coming at him hard. To call this his aggression is either dishonest or based on a small sample. If you watch more of his talks and lectures, he's basically never aggressive or ugly to people who ask real (as opposed to baiting) questions. Secondly, people are also hostile toward Charles Murray, who is a careful scholar and nuanced and measured speaker. There are frequent waves of hostility toward Rogan and Sam Harris when they offend current liberal dogma. You're a scientist, right? Be a scientist here.

Regarding JP's sense of himself, it's true that he tends to think he has The Answer. Not all the time but on some issues he's made up his mind and it's impossible to get him to reconsider. He's also absurdly defensive sometimes, like when Tyler Cowen asked if he's Christian, a fair question considering how much he uses scripture in his lectures. He was comically evasive, I mean Pavel territory. I'm no psychologist but it seems like rigid thinking plus inability to admit being wrong can lead a person to do some really dumb things in situations where someone else's brain would be screaming "dude, you're getting on a plane to Russia, to be put into a coma.". He may lack the ability to reconsider things.

There is also the unfortunate tendency people have to become self styled experts on everything when enough people listen to them. JP has gone down that path. Hopefully he can reverse course and not become another Rip, who knows everything about everything.

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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Aggression was the wrong word. I meant what you said later in your post, the Answer to everything and being rigid in his views.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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Sangoma wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:12 am Aggression was the wrong word. I meant what you said later in your post, the Answer to everything and being rigid in his views.
JP is an interesting cat, my guess is that the more exposure you have to him, the more you'll agree with him for several reason. First, he hates pseudoscience and half baked causal analysis as much, if not more, than you do-- and he's got enough scientific background to recognize garbage analysis quickly. Second, his thought is heavily based in the best technical research and theory in his field. Third, he's a practicing clinical psychologist and has been for decades-- the stuff he's espousing is stuff he's been using (and evaluating the success of) with his client population.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

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One thing that's obvious to anyone who has seen a lot of his stuff is what he means when he seemingly disparages people: "you're useless and horrible so of course you'll get it wrong", etc. This comes from his clinical practice, where people say,"I can't do all that, I suck, boo hoo." So that's his framing:"I know you're going to tell me your're too hopeless to do anything, yeah, okay, but even you can do this much". To get through peoples excuses for inertia.

One troubling thing I've seen a lot recently, it's not really recent but it does seem to be accelerating, is this chain: A person will make a statement. Anyone at all familiar with his work will know what he means, but some dishonest person will take it out of context and then lazy people will regurgitate the spin as if it were true. Take Bill James. He uses "we" to refer to baseball fandom, has been doing that since his first Abstracts. Probably 100 times a year, no exaggeration, he posts something about what we, the baseball fan gen pop, could do, or want to watch. He has a famous essay from about 1985 where he examines whether baseball is a sport or a business in which he says something like "we could get rid of all the teams and players and be right back where we are now in five years","He wasn't suggesting a pogrom of MLB, he was saying that if they all retired or became Amish or something, if we, the fans, were still interested, we would have the same basic game we have now. Every single person who reads him knows that's what he meant when he recently posted about how we could get rid of the players, etc. Not a single person who has done any diligence at all thinks he was suggesting the Red Sox fire players en masse. But some people spun it that way, or at best reacted without doing any further study at all, and then other people tar and feather him for something he didn't actually say.

There was more but I poofed it.

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