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johno wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:28 pmYes. Those amazing kids. Uncanny how they all agree, and speak with one voice.

It's almost as if having a bunch of your friends suddenly die from gun violence could have a huge impact on a teen.

JimZipCode wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:06 pm

johno wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:28 pmYes. Those amazing kids. Uncanny how they all agree, and speak with one voice.

It's almost as if having a bunch of your friends suddenly die from gun violence could have a huge impact on a teen.

Except that's not the case, is it? Some Parkland students oppose gun control. The media downplays them because those kids don't promote their agenda.

Who was more of a Parkland Hero, David Hogg or Anthony Borges, who took five bullets while barricading a classroom door? But who got the Media Time?

Was Hogg more newsworthy than Kyle Kashuv?

*****

As to your Wave of Young Voters who will Repeal the Second Amendment:

johno wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:42 pm

JimZipCode wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:06 pm

johno wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:28 pmYes. Those amazing kids. Uncanny how they all agree, and speak with one voice.

It's almost as if having a bunch of your friends suddenly die from gun violence could have a huge impact on a teen.

Except that's not the case, is it? Some Parkland students oppose gun control. The media downplays them because those kids don't promote their agenda.

Who was more of a Parkland Hero, David Hogg or Anthony Borges, who took five bullets while barricading a classroom door? But who got the Media Time?

? Borges just got out of the hospital and has been recovering. I have no idea what his politics are, but he hasn't been in much of a position to be promoting them.

Johno, the NRA-favored right holds the executive, both houses of the legislative, and the majority of the SCOTUS. People get elected to produce results. I'm going to sit back and wait for actions and results. That's really what I care about, results.

With authority comes responsibility. Time for these folks to stop their whining and step up and protect the people.

johno wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:28 pm

JimZipCode wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:20 pm if the kids continue to be effective at mobilizing and motivating and a wave grows.

Yes. Those amazing kids. Uncanny how they all agree, and speak with one voice.

johno, in my opinion this is far more likely to happen with each generation

Spells - Why was Kashuv so ignored by the fair & balanced media? He got about 1% of the coverage of Hogg & Co. He was available, fairly articulate, and had his own opinion. It was a counterintuitive perspective that was largely ignored.

Nafod - Ever broaden your search for answers beyond disarming law abiding gun owners? Notice how the media made the same leap that you did? Probably because you already had the Hammer and were in search of the Nail. Similarly, Hogg was anti-gun before the Parkland murders occurred.

Shaf - The Right Wing NPR poll indicates otherwise.

*****

Not that my compass is what the Parkland Kids think, but has anyone done a survey or poll to see what the student body actually thinks?
Otherwise, aren't you making assumptions?

Johno, I've got a whole bunch of ideas on steps to take, many I know you'd agree with. As a for example the program in Texas to train school marshals analogous to Air Marshals, very focused intensive training to the very specific scenario.

Is it 100% agreement in the Parkland student body? Of course not. There isn't 100% agreement on anything in America, including whether there is or isn't 100% agreement on anything in America. Seeing as how most of the shooters are themselves high school kids, there's your counter-example right there.

But again, I'm going to wait for actions and results from the folks in charge. There are an awful lot of young kids who have grown up conducting active shooter drills from elementary to high school, they are coming of voting age and they are motivated and ready to demand some changes.

Thing One is to see the risk in perspective. The odds of a kid getting killed in a mass shooting is minuscule...less than a reaction to a bee sting or lightning strike. (That doesn't mean we ignore the risk, but we are mature about it. If school shootings justify overturning the Second Amendment or abandoning the Constitution, our society is fucked.)

Overall, schools are very safe. That's why it's such a shock when that image is violated.

Thing Two is to consider causes. It certainly seems that school shootings didn't occur while I was attending. What has changed? Could ADHD drugs play a role? Different attitudes toward boys? Lack of physical activity? Absent fathers? Lax school discipline. (I don't know.)

Thing Three is to create a multilayered response. That would include taking troubled/violent youth more seriously, perhaps removing them from schools. (I reject No Child Left Behind. Some kids are assholes and need to be Left Behind, so they don't ruin school & life for other kids.)

I have no problem with the Air Marshal response as one solution. I would also consider the Armed & Trained VOLUNTEER Teacher. (I don't care that some/many teachers don't want to be armed. Fine.) The Volunteer would not have to go through an entire police academy, little of which has bearing on defending a classroom. I strongly suspect that many schools would have volunteers who would fund their own training out of love/duty toward their students.

Nor do I scoff at simple & inexpensive mitigation steps like securable classroom doors...compartmented classrooms would not stop violence, but they could significantly limit it.

*****

I categorically reject the GUN CONTROL "solution" that the media and the media-promoted Parkland students immediately leapt to.
Those kids have no more credibility to impose their gun control opinions than plane crash survivors have to dictate aeronautics to Boeing.

johno wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:42 pmWas Hogg more newsworthy than Kyle Kashuv?

Possibly. Was Kashew organizing rallies and demonstrations & stuff?

The odds of a kid getting killed in a mass shooting is minuscule

There were a bunch who were "just" shot in Parkland, and 3000 more students who traumatized in no small way. Not to mention the first responders and the people who have to go clean up the mess.

Good friend of mine's son dropped out of VATech after the shooting, and had to seek counseling. It's taken him years to do a reset.

These are terror attacks, and effective ones too.

JimZipCode wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:10 pm

johno wrote: ↑Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:42 pmWas Hogg more newsworthy than Kyle Kashuv?

Possibly. Was Kashew organizing rallies and demonstrations & stuff?

Why? Are the opinions of organizers more valid than those of other students?

Kashuv was certainly outspoken & available, had the media been interested.

nafod wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:22 pm

The odds of a kid getting killed in a mass shooting is minuscule

There were a bunch who were "just" shot in Parkland, and 3000 more students who traumatized in no small way. Not to mention the first responders and the people who have to go clean up the mess.

Good friend of mine's son dropped out of VATech after the shooting, and had to seek counseling. It's taken him years to do a reset.

These are terror attacks, and effective ones too.

Yes. See my (half) tongue in cheek comment about censorship, above.

johno wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:50 pmWhy? Are the opinions of organizers more valid than those of other students?

Because big rallies & stuff are "newsy". Telegenic.

Thing Two is to consider causes

That involves doing actual research by experts, ideally in epidemiology, since that is the right science to tease out cause and effects. Hopefully the congressional bar on even looking at this stuff will be lifted.

JimZipCode wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:37 am

johno wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:50 pmWhy? Are the opinions of organizers more valid than those of other students?

Because big rallies & stuff are "newsy". Telegenic.

Ridiculous.

But let's test your proposition: If pro-gun Parkland students had organized a "telegenic rally," would they have received the same coverage and fawning treatment?

Those kids have no more credibility to impose their gun control opinions than plane crash survivors have to dictate aeronautics to Boeing.

That's a horrible analogy. You'd sue Boeing if ther plane didn't perform as advertised (safely get you from A to B). Here, the product is performing exactly as it is designed perform as a weapon designed to kill lots of people quickly.

johno wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:26 pm

JimZipCode wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:37 am

johno wrote: ↑Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:50 pmWhy? Are the opinions of organizers more valid than those of other students?

Because big rallies & stuff are "newsy". Telegenic.

Ridiculous.

But let's test your proposition: If pro-gun Parkland students had organized a "telegenic rally," would they have received the same coverage and fawning treatment?

They didn’t. You seem to be proceeding form the assumption that just as many Parkland students hold the opposite view and are trying to get their message out, when that’s obviously not the case. Demographics aside, that school population changed. My wife’s folks are retired but do volunteer work at the high school. Her dad is a dyed-in-the-wool Republican, biotech exec, large gun collection (including ARs), climate change skeptic even with a sicence background. He’s flipped on the NRA, even if he doesn’t think every single thing the students want is good..

I don’t doubt there are pro-Trump Parkland students, even pro-NRA students. They area at this point a smaller minority than they already were. They also aren’t becoming activists or making a loud political argument. If they were, there’s no shortage of conservative media apparatus to publicize them. So what are you talking about? It reads like, “Wah, where is my side that can’t be attacked personally?”

It’s interesting that people are so determined to attack the students rather than bat down their arguments with better ones. The NRA for a long time has been able to attack people personally with hyperbole rather than advocate sensible policy. That tactic doesn’t work on this group of opponents.

vt's republican gov just signed gun-safety legislation. limit size of magazines, background checks for private sales, confiscate guns from spousal abusers and others who are dangerous.

he was resistant until a despairing vt kid was stopped before he could put his plan to shoot up his school into action.

good for the gov.

the end.

Grandpa's Spells wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:56 pm
It’s interesting that people are so determined to attack the students rather than bat down their arguments with better ones. The NRA for a long time has been able to attack people personally with hyperbole rather than advocate sensible policy. That tactic doesn’t work on this group of opponents.

No, it's because the Sainted Kids have been granted unlimited license to say anything they want to attack gun owners and the NRA. Most of their comments have been semi-coherent emotional outbursts & attacks. Besides bleating "No More," and "Never Again," what have they contributed to the discussion, besides heat & hate?

nafod wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:15 pm

Those kids have no more credibility to impose their gun control opinions than plane crash survivors have to dictate aeronautics to Boeing.

That's a horrible analogy. You'd sue Boeing if ther plane didn't perform as advertised (safely get you from A to B). Here, the product is performing exactly as it is designed perform as a weapon designed to kill lots of people quickly.

Way to miss the point. Which is that being a victim does not grant you any particular wisdom, nor any special insight into a solution.

johno wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:12 pm

nafod wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:15 pm

Those kids have no more credibility to impose their gun control opinions than plane crash survivors have to dictate aeronautics to Boeing.

That's a horrible analogy. You'd sue Boeing if ther plane didn't perform as advertised (safely get you from A to B). Here, the product is performing exactly as it is designed perform as a weapon designed to kill lots of people quickly.

Way to miss the point. Which is that being a victim does not grant you any particular wisdom, nor any special insight into a solution.

It does offer you insight into what it is like to actually be in the shooting gallery, and what the level of tolerability of this should be. Your post upstream kind of suggested only the dead ones are victims (the odds of getter nag killed are minuscule). The kids understand it in a way that we don't, that that is not true. They've "seen the elephant " to borrow an analogy from the ground forces in Iraq.

nafod wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:20 pm

johno wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:12 pm

nafod wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:15 pm

Those kids have no more credibility to impose their gun control opinions than plane crash survivors have to dictate aeronautics to Boeing.

That's a horrible analogy. You'd sue Boeing if ther plane didn't perform as advertised (safely get you from A to B). Here, the product is performing exactly as it is designed perform as a weapon designed to kill lots of people quickly.

Way to miss the point. Which is that being a victim does not grant you any particular wisdom, nor any special insight into a solution.

It does offer you insight into what it is like to actually be in the shooting gallery, and what the level of tolerability of this should be. Your post upstream kind of suggested only the dead ones are victims (the odds of getter nag killed are minuscule). The kids understand it in a way that we don't, that that is not true. They've "seen the elephant " to borrow an analogy from the ground forces in Iraq.

Way to miss the point. Which is that being a victim does not grant you any particular wisdom, nor any special insight into a solution.

johno wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:26 pm

JimZipCode wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:37 amBecause big rallies & stuff are "newsy". Telegenic.

Ridiculous.

But let's test your proposition:

I didn't say "important". Perhaps you're confusing "good video for the news organizations to get ratings with, what with the human interest angle etc" with "adding substantive contributions to the discourse".

I'm not sure how your hypothetical constitutes a "test". If it actually happened, that would be a test. Are the pro-gun Parkland kids staging rallies?

johno wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:09 pmNo, it's because the Sainted Kids have been granted unlimited license to say anything they want to attack gun owners and the NRA.

I thought they already had that license? First amendment and so forth.

The attack gave them visibility and a platform, and some inoculation against the lower forms of backlash. The Constitution enshrined their license.

johno wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:09 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:56 pm
It’s interesting that people are so determined to attack the students rather than bat down their arguments with better ones. The NRA for a long time has been able to attack people personally with hyperbole rather than advocate sensible policy. That tactic doesn’t work on this group of opponents.

No, it's because the Sainted Kids have been granted unlimited license to say anything they want to attack gun owners and the NRA. Most of their comments have been semi-coherent emotional outbursts & attacks. Besides bleating "No More," and "Never Again," what have they contributed to the discussion, besides heat & hate?

They’ve made pretty specific policy proposals, which you seem to be willfully ignoring.

dead man walking wrote: ↑Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:37 pmvt's republican gov just signed gun-safety legislation. limit size of magazines, background checks for private sales, confiscate guns from spousal abusers and others who are dangerous.

he was resistant until a despairing vt kid was stopped before he could put his plan to shoot up his school into action.

Yah, see this is the kind of thing the NRA could take point on, and keep control of the issue. Stonewalling, coming to it with a "give and inch" attitude, will in the end give them a far worse result. (I think.)

Be interesting to see if that confiscation survives a court challenge from a spousal abuser.