IGX

The following is a brief review of a few of Biotest's nutritional supplements and stimulants; I haven't tried any of their pseudo-anabolics, so I can't comment on them.

Surge - Post-workout supplement.
Very effective at helping you recover from high-volume workouts. The perfect post-workout ratio (2 carbs: 1 protein) and extremely high insulin-index carbs have a lot to do with this, but it's the Branch Chain Amino Acids (super proteins) that really give it a recovery kick. To my knowledge, no other post-workout supp contains these in the quantities and correct proportions that Surge does.
Surge is expensive ($20 a tub), but it's the best post-workout supplement on the market, as far as I know, both in terms of effectiveness irrespective of cost and in terms of post-workout bang for your buck. I wouldn't use this after low-volume workouts, though. When I switched from higher-volume to low-volume workouts and consequently dropped the Surge for Grow, I noticed a serious reduction in glycogen retention and increased leanness without a drop in body weight. Surge tastes excellent - kind of like cake mix. Very sugary.

Incidentally, in terms of pre-workout bang for your buck and effectiveness, nothing beats Xtreme Formulations's ICE (BCAA formula). Go with about 3/4 the recommended dosage, half pre-workout, half during the first half of the workout. Excellent performance boost, virtually eliminates muscle soreness from multiple sets of squats. Back to Biotest.

Grow Protein Powder: Solid. Micellar casein is great - an extremely high-quality, slow-digesting protein. I have used this as a post-workout protein after medium-volume workouts, and it works just fine. Conains no junk, no sugars to speak of, tastes better than any other powder on the market. Price is high but reasonable, considering. Vanilla tastes good but not sweet, and mixes well with other flavors. Chocolate tastes excellent - contains real dutch cocoa.

Grow bars: Again, the best bar on the market, and best-tasting to boot. No micellar casein here, but high quality protein. Fairly low-insulin index carbs, albeit not as low as I would have liked. A little extra fat would have resulted in a more favorable macronutrient ratio. If you want to buy some bars, these are probably one of your best choices - they're about as free of junk ingredients as a bar can be. I'll probably stick to the protein powder, if only because it allows me to eat more of my carbs from more natural sources. The price is excellent compared to that of other bars and considering the quality.

Power Drive: Probably Biotest's most underrated supplement. Power Drive provides the effects of a stimulant without actually taxing your CNS the way a stimulant does. It provides a real strength boost and some mood elevation without any more CNS strain than results naturally from psyching yourself up to lift heavy.

Spike: Biotest's stimulant. 1 cap provides a bigger strength boost than Power Drive, along with a calm, even stimulant effect. Biotest claims that it is more powerful than espresso, it is not physiologically addictive, and it does not downgrade (i.e., you do not need to start taking more of it in order to get the same stimulus). These claims are actually true, as far as I can tell; certainly Spike still affects me as strongly as it first did. I do not reccomend that you take two caps unless you feel like setting a P.R. BTW, do NOT expose Spike to heat. Don't even carry it around with you in your bag on a hot day. This stuff smells terrible when it melts, and tastes worse.

ZMA - The best of them all. $9 for really, really sound sleep, every night. ZMA is a Zinc and Magnesium supplement. Buying it is worth it because calcium inhibits apsorbtion of these vitamins, which means that you don't really get them out of a standard multivitamin or out of most meals - and because these vitamins dramaticall influence Testosterone levels. Don't take ZMA with a meal that contains calcium, obviously; taking ZMA, waiting half an hour, and then eating a non-calcium meal works pretty well. Taking ZMA with a non-calcium meal works all right as well, although it seems to slow absoprtion. Also, if you like remembering your dreams better, ZMA tends to make that easier, as well, without changing the dream content (as far as I can tell).

I agree with Ross on most of these products. Although I havent used the grow bars, the Grow powder is good. The power drive is great stuff & I mix it with the ICE BCAA and sip it during workouts.

With the Spike I just dont seem to notice much of a difference. I take it after lunch to keep me going becuase I drink espresso & coffee in the AM (1 double shoot mix with regualr coffee, then another cup of straight coffee later).

ZMA works as advertised and it is the ONLY supplement of this type that doesnt contain calcium, which as Ross stated blocks the Mg absorption

Surge - tried it, I have very low sugar tolerance and these type of post-workout drinks really fucks me up in the head so I tend to avoid them.

In addition I've tried:
Alpha Male - no noticable effect,
Hot Rox some but I dont take full dosage becuase I dont like the jittery feeling I get from it
Red Kat - no noticable effect.

Biotest has very fast shipping but it is expensive $7.50 FedEx usually comes in 2 days.
The Biotest products that you can get in retail stores like GNC are not full strength......

Biotest makes some great products. I have been a fan of Powerdrive since 1998. However, I think that Neurostim is a superior product.

I tried Spike once but it did not work well for me. An hour after I took it, I felt great. However, several hours later, I got chills and felt like I had a fever. Not worth it.

Xtremeformulations Ice is a great BCAA/glutamine product. Much better than Glutacene etc. Bcaa+G is also very good.

Can't let it slide...

Please describe in simple terms how any of these supplements are better than real food. All of the above components and claimed benefits can be had in milk, sardines, roast beef, etc. Protein fractions, amino ratios, and all the other gobbledygook is 100% hype - you are made to turn real food into it's component parts and those component parts into more you. BCAA's, l-glutamine, and other listed non-food supplements claimed benefits are still unproven, because they cannot pass the digestive tract intact and the hypemongers rely on your ignorance and studies that used IV delivery methods to blow smoke up your strirated ass. Protein is real food, not a supplement, and if you wish to spend 5x it's real value for denatured, cooked, and dried stuff instead of eating a chicken leg, have at it. The rest is foolishness, marketing bullshit, herb/drugs, and the placebo effect in action.

I don't know a single veteran PLer who takes any supplements at all besides CM, and most of us gave up on that years ago. Take drugs or don't, eat real food either way, and ignore all supplement ads.

I asked several of the best APF PLs in Michigan about their supplements.

1. Multivitamin
2. Joint support, especially the fat guys, and especially the bench specialists
3. Protein powder

Most didn't take creatine regularly, especially the lighter ones

This was an APF meet, so many of them gave me the high sign when vitamin T was brought up.

Old Uncle Heywood wrote:Can't let it slide...

Please describe in simple terms how any of these supplements are better than real food. All of the above components and claimed benefits can be had in milk, sardines, roast beef, etc. Protein fractions, amino ratios, and all the other gobbledygook is 100% hype - you are made to turn real food into it's component parts and those component parts into more you. BCAA's, l-glutamine, and other listed non-food supplements claimed benefits are still unproven, because they cannot pass the digestive tract intact and the hypemongers rely on your ignorance and studies that used IV delivery methods to blow smoke up your strirated ass. Protein is real food, not a supplement, and if you wish to spend 5x it's real value for denatured, cooked, and dried stuff instead of eating a chicken leg, have at it. The rest is foolishness, marketing bullshit, herb/drugs, and the placebo effect in action.

I don't know a single veteran PLer who takes any supplements at all besides CM, and most of us gave up on that years ago. Take drugs or don't, eat real food either way, and ignore all supplement ads.

They may not be any better than real food but when you dont have a wife or GF hanging around waiting to fix your dinner & you dont get home until 9:30 or 10p and have to get up again at 6am, having a protein shake to go with some quick scrambled eggs or microwaved chikcen helps a lot.

THe ICE BCAA has all but eliminated DOMS unless I really go hard.
The power drive gives me a good mental boost as well as physical. The other Biotest stuff I've tried and some other non-Biotest like V-12 sont do shit for me. The Spike doesnt seem to do much either, a good double shot of espresso works wonders though.

If its the placebo effect I dont care it works for me. If you can tell me what to eat in sufficient quantities and ease of consumption to replace the ICE & power drive tell me & I'll try it.

The problem is you are so goddamned big you have to take 3 times as much as me to get any effect from it.

Whey protein: ~$0.18 per 20 gram serving. Hard to beat, pricewise. Not nearly as satisfying as real food, though.

Lately I've taken to adding 2 tbls of flax seed meal to the water and whey shakes I make. Adds a nice consistency and a bit of a nutty flavor to them. I also add cinamon, ~1/2 tsp in each shake.

Cinamon has some nifty blood sugar regulating properties, and it's actually leaned me out a bit over the last 10 weeks or so.

I liked flax oil plus protein. A tbs of peanut butter is a nice addy as well.

Heywood,

I'm not pandering these products as a panacea.

Surge-
No Powerlifters and Oly lifters don't use post-workout supplements, and they don't need to do; their workouts don't deplete glycogen to the extent that other workouts do. When I train like an Oly Lifter or a gymnast, I don't use Surge. Sprinters, mid-distance, and endurance athletes - anybody who does a high volume of glycolytic rather than the CP workload - DO deplete glycogen, and they DO ingest post-workout supplements. I follow suit; when I do CrossFit workouts, sometimes I do use Surge, although I'm gravitating away from it.

Grow-
IS better than some kinds of protein. Is it appreciably better than eggs, cottage cheese, or milk? Probably not. Is it more portable, quicker to make, tastier, and more convenient? Hell, yes; that's its virtue.

ZMA -
Jack Reape, among others, has attested to ZMA's usefulness. Getting a good night's sleep is extradordinarily valuable, and ZMA really helps, and does it naturally - just vitamins, no drugs.

Stimulants -
Coffee is great, but being addicted to coffee sucks. Power Drive and Spike solve this problem, and even provide a better stimulus while they're at it.

BCAAs -
don't knock ICE if you haven't tried it. I have yet to meet a single person who has used it without being incredibly impressed with how much it alleviated DOMs and enhanced recovery with respect to actual performance in the gym.

How's that, Uncle?

Ross Hunt wrote:Heywood,

I'm not pandering these products as a panacea.

Surge-
No Powerlifters and Oly lifters don't use post-workout supplements, and they don't need to do; their workouts don't deplete glycogen to the extent that other workouts do. When I train like an Oly Lifter or a gymnast, I don't use Surge. Sprinters, mid-distance, and endurance athletes - anybody who does a high volume of glycolytic rather than the CP workload - DO deplete glycogen, and they DO ingest post-workout supplements. I follow suit; when I do CrossFit workouts, sometimes I do use Surge, although I'm gravitating away from it.

Grow-
IS better than some kinds of protein. Is it appreciably better than eggs, cottage cheese, or milk? Probably not. Is it more portable, quicker to make, tastier, and more convenient? Hell, yes; that's its virtue.

ZMA -
Jack Reape, among others, has attested to ZMA's usefulness. Getting a good night's sleep is extradordinarily valuable, and ZMA really helps, and does it naturally - just vitamins, no drugs.

Stimulants -
Coffee is great, but being addicted to coffee sucks. Power Drive and Spike solve this problem, and even provide a better stimulus while they're at it.

BCAAs -
don't knock ICE if you haven't tried it. I have yet to meet a single person who has used it without being incredibly impressed with how much it alleviated DOMs and enhanced recovery with respect to actual performance in the gym.

How's that, Uncle?

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=pander
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?b ... te&x=0&y=0

Ross Hunt wrote: Surge-
No Powerlifters and Oly lifters don't use post-workout supplements, and they don't need to do; their workouts don't deplete glycogen to the extent that other workouts do. When I train like an Oly Lifter or a gymnast, I don't use Surge. Sprinters, mid-distance, and endurance athletes - anybody who does a high volume of glycolytic rather than the CP workload - DO deplete glycogen, and they DO ingest post-workout supplements. I follow suit; when I do CrossFit workouts, sometimes I do use Surge, although I'm gravitating away from it.

Glycogen is 'depleted' via every muscular contraction, including peristalsis. It is 'replenished' via any form of ingested digestible CHO or by gluconeogenesis. It is the latter that those who care about muscular composition wisely avoid, and why those who are successful at it are not on idiotic diets that force the body to cannibalize muscle to create carbohydrate. Glycogen is more quickly 'replensihed' by high glycemic index carbs, like a glass of water with two teaspoons of Domino.

Eat an orange.

Ross Hunt wrote: Grow-
IS better than some kinds of protein. Is it appreciably better than eggs, cottage cheese, or milk? Probably not. Is it more portable, quicker to make, tastier, and more convenient? Hell, yes; that's its virtue.

Eat what you want. I find it reasonably easy to port beef, hard-boiled eggs, sardines, and the like, and also find them tastier and easier to make.

Ross Hunt wrote: ZMA -
Jack Reape, among others, has attested to ZMA's usefulness. Getting a good night's sleep is extradordinarily valuable, and ZMA really helps, and does it naturally - just vitamins, no drugs.

Anecdotal evidence does not negate biological fact. FYI, anything that alters your body's function is a drug by definition. ZMA would have been classified as such by the FDA if it wasn't another in a long line of overhyped crap. The amino in turkey and milk that was sold in health food stores a few years back that actually does help you sleep is now a controlled substance, for example.

Ross Hunt wrote:
Stimulants -
Coffee is great, but being addicted to coffee sucks. Power Drive and Spike solve this problem, and even provide a better stimulus while they're at it.

'Stimulus' via substances is good, but 'stimulants' are not?

Ross Hunt wrote:
BCAAs -
don't knock ICE if you haven't tried it. I have yet to meet a single person who has used it without being incredibly impressed with how much it alleviated DOMs and enhanced recovery with respect to actual performance in the gym.

More anecdodal bullshit. Why does ICE work? Why does all reputable science not funded by the supplement industry state that it's components cannot pass the digestive system in useful form? FYI, BCAAs are not touted by anyone other than the ICE maggots as a DOMS aid, but one that increases energy for the few hours after taking it.

Ross Hunt wrote:How's that, Uncle?

Not quite there yet. Eat food.

Try my nutsweat--it's got more test than your entire family.

You're pretty ornery tonight, Uncle. Where to start?

Hey Uncle Oldwood wrote:
Eat an orange.

Are you seriously going to claim that the insulin index of a food doesn't have any impact on how useful it is for recovery? There's a reason the Strossen program recommends milk, and it's not just caloric density. I've eaten meat and spinach post-workout, and I've eaten honey and milk post-workout; I know which meal resulted in a better recovery from the workout. Analagously, Surge is even better than milk and honey; higher-quality protein, BCAAs, higher-II carbs.

Hey Uncle Oldwood wrote:
Anecdotal evidence does not negate biological fact.

What, in this instance, are the biologic facts? As far as I'm concerned, they are as follows: Calcium inhibits zinc/magnesium aborption. Zinc and magnesium levels contribute substantially to T levels. "Ergo," taking a supplement w/ Zinc and Magnesium to make sure you actually GET some of these vitamins increases T levels. If you don't buy into the whole Testosterone argument (I don't, entirely), then just consider that everyone who has used the supplement has consistently slept better. If that's a placebo effect, it's the most consistent and useful one I've ever heard of...

Hey Uncle Oldwood wrote:
'Stimulus' via substances is good, but 'stimulants' are not?

Um, no. I didn't say that. I said stimulants are good, and being addicted to them is bad.

Hey Uncle Oldwood wrote:
More anecdodal bullshit. Why does ICE work?

Theoretically, it prevents protein breakdown and stimulates protein synthesis during exercise. If studies by guys in lab coats are what floats your boat, there are an indecent number of articles at T-nation on the virtues of protein intake during and after exercise, all chock-full of references to scientific studies.

But why be so hostile to 'anecdotal' experience, Uncle? What WOULD convince you that anything new is worth trying - not a supplement, but a good old 'natural' food that you haven't tried yet? The fact that cottage cheese is good food was not handed down from God Almighty (correct me, Andy, if I'm wrong); some guy figured it out. And, come to think of it, cottage cheese doesn't grow on trees, either. Some guy thought to milk the goat.

My intention in my opening post was just to give y'all a heads-up to some useful stuff, not to insist that it was somehow indispensable to training or a replacement for real food. OR JUST TRY FAT CAT'S DELICIOUS NUT SWEAT. I LOVE IT BY THE QUART.

Ross Hunt wrote:Are you seriously going to claim that the insulin index of a food doesn't have any impact on how useful it is for recovery?.

You just jumped from 'food' to 'supplement' and back again. I'll stay centered for both of us: Glycemic index refers to the rate, once ingested, that food causes blood sugar to rise and how long it stays risen. Simple carbs cause a fast rise and quick decline, complex carbs result in both more slowly. Insulin rises as the result of blood sugar. There is no such thing as an 'insulin index', unless some lying scumbag supplement manufacturer has recently invented one. The glycemic index, OTOH, has little to do with recovery from anything. Real athletes carb up with pasta and beer pre-event, and eat whatever they want afterwards. Wannabes and shills do otherwise.

Ross Hunt wrote:Calcium inhibits zinc/magnesium aborption. Zinc and magnesium levels contribute substantially to T levels. "Ergo," taking a supplement w/ Zinc and Magnesium to make sure you actually GET some of these vitamins increases T levels. If you don't buy into the whole Testosterone argument (I don't, entirely), then just consider that everyone who has used the supplement has consistently slept better. If that's a placebo effect, it's the most consistent and useful one I've ever heard of...

You just jumped from sleeping to testosterone and back again. for the sake of the wallets of others, I'll think in a line straight enough for both of us: Testosterone is released by the nutsack at a rate that has nothing to do with ingested minerals. Nobody, and I mean nobody, believes that free testosterone is affected by calcium or zinc or magnesium or any other item available that is not a drug. T-Mag is generally populated with and run by idiots, bodybuilders, and other lowlife scum, as its only purpose is to sell useless supplements via references to folks who use drugs to achieve their pantywasited results as 'proof' of the supplement claims.

Ross Hunt wrote:I said stimulants are good, and being addicted to them is bad.

More circles with Ross. What is the inevitable result of long term use of any stimulant drug? Why take them if you care? Why are stimulants 'good'? Why are you not at the bathtub cooking up some crank?

Ross Hunt wrote:Theoretically, it prevents protein breakdown and stimulates protein synthesis during exercise. If studies by guys in lab coats are what floats your boat, there are an indecent number of articles at T-nation on the virtues of protein intake during and after exercise, all chock-full of references to scientific studies.

The point that your dumb ass can't seem to internalize is this: They are lying to you. Each and every supplement manufacturer, every time.

Ross Hunt wrote:But why be so hostile to 'anecdotal' experience, Uncle?

Because it is another in the long line of techniques they use to lie to you and you use to lie to others. Once your victims get a little older and have a few more thousand dollars extracted from you them, they'll realize that the latest hot supplement is always replaced with another one that everyone must have and the industry-funded studies prove beyond a shadow of a doubt work. Then it goes away once the rook stops working and the cycle repeats with a new POS that your dysmorphic guilt requires you to buy, memorize the justifying pseudoscientific party line, and repeat it to others. Go buy some Tribulus Terrestrus and Ionamine while you are at it, because I heard they were the super-secret Soviet methods that made Alexeev the man he was and saw the studies to prove it.

Dave wrote:If you can tell me what to eat in sufficient quantities and ease of consumption to replace the ICE & power drive tell me & I'll try it.

Dave, I don't know whats in any of these products. However, I'm old, crippled, recovering from long illness, have multiple long-term injuries, train as hard as I possibly can as often as I can, take no supplements, and never have DOMS. Used to get it all the time.

There are two keys: Recovery workouts and proper nutritional support. For the former, which I don't list in my training log, I do the JS flexibility routine with the lightest band available every day (10 minutes), take a sauna on the days I don't do cardio, and do 5 minutes warmup - 5 minutes at 85% max HR - 5 minutes cooldown cardio after benching which is the day after I SQ/Pull. Also spend a bit of time every day working on MA, which is roughly analagous to general joint mobilty work.

I eat 5-6 small meals a day, WFR, and make sure I eat before and after workouts. That's it. A pint of 2% milk before and after will do everything that the supplements will do. A can of Sardines is even better, but you'll need some carrots or parsnips or blueberries to go with it to make a decent WFR meal.

Try it and see - my proposal is anecdotal, but a lot less expensive than the alternative, and I have nothing to sell.

However, I'm old, crippled, recovering from long illness, have multiple long-term injuries, train as hard as I possibly can as often as I can, take no supplements, and never have DOMS. Used to get it all the time.

Crippled maybe, old, I think we are the same age or close to it. Turned 46 a few months ago.

I have all the aches and pains just not as bad as you. Pretty soft life compared most of you guys but still and all I try to go at my kb and MA workouts full blast but I've finally realized I cant do it every day anymore. So hard one day light the next. lots of snatches or swings (cleans kill my tendinitis) next day presses, rows, deadlifts etc. Been doing a lot of thrusters lately.

ICE is L-Leucine, L-Glutamine, L-Valine, L-Isoleucine, Artificial Flavor and Color, Pyridoxine HCL, Sucralose, Acesulfame-K. It works wonder for preventing DOMS. Its about $45 for 900+grams if you search via Froolge. Dont get it from XtremeFormulations.

I try to eat WFR, but dont really cook, so I get lots of mercury laden canned tuna in water, frozen chicken tenerloins, and sirloin steak and sirloin burger, oatmeal & natural peanut butter. Started getting frozen blueberry's after the thread last week. I try to eat spinach/lettuce with carrots & tomatoes salad most night as well. Usually only eat 3 times/day.

The Grow low carb protein is $25 or so for 2 lbs tastes great, mixes well without a blender & is convenient. I usually have one/night with dinner.
I have tried going without the BCAA & other crap and doing light work the day after a really heavy workout but still usually get sore. The ICE really does work.

Due to $$ factors I'm probably going to get off the ICE for awhile, the Power drive & protein I'll probably continue though. All those supps add up to some major $$$ close to $100 if not more/month.

I'm glad to see you are recovering, you'll be 100% in no time

Jablome,

Ad hominem attacks are distasteful. I'll leave that at that.
I really don't think this topic is worth anybody's ire. I just posted to get the word out about a couple products out of which I believe I got my money's worth. I would be very happy to hear other experiences about these products or other particular products similar to them.

'I tried x and it didn't do a single thing for me,'

'I tried it, and it kind of worked, but I don't think it was worth the price,'

'Are you sure that x effect that you described couldn't simply have been placebo effect?'

'x does work as well as you so, but y works better, and costs less.'

These are snippets of the kind of useful dialogue that I would be interested in engaging in. Coming out with guns blazing is great as long as you some particular criticism of the product at hand, as opposed to a polemic painted with a broad brush.

Ross Hunt wrote: Ad hominem attacks are distasteful. I'll leave that at that.

So are scam artists.

Ross Hunt wrote: I just posted to get the word out about a couple products out of which I believe I got my money's worth.

You got fucked and are trying to pass along the fucking. For the benefit of others, I cannot let your bullshit slide. From your first post, all the proof needed that you don't know what you are talking about:

Ross Hunt wrote: The perfect post-workout ratio (2 carbs: 1 protein) and extremely high insulin-index carbs have a lot to do with this, but it's the Branch Chain Amino Acids (super proteins) that really give it a recovery kick. .

1. The ratio is a complete invention.
2. There is no such thing as an 'insulin-index'.
3. Amino acids are not proteins, super or otherwise.
4. The supposed benefit of BCAAs is increased workout energy, not recovery. All semi-repuatable supplement firms direct you to take them an hour before a long session of exercise.
5. Your mother is a whore.

Dave wrote:ICE is L-Leucine, L-Glutamine, L-Valine, L-Isoleucine, Artificial Flavor and Color, Pyridoxine HCL, Sucralose, Acesulfame-K.

Dave, those are the three branched-chain amino acids, L-Glutamine, and inactive ingredients. BCAAs are supposed to be for increased energy in endurance workouts. Nobody but ICE claims any benefit to recovery. For increased energy, they are in the 'might work' as opposed to 'does work' category. BCAAs do not work for recovery.

L-Gluatamine has been on the shelves of the health food stores and in the ads in the BB rags for 15 years or so. It is in the 'might work' category for recovery, because all controlled and valid studies are from the medical establishment and use IV delivery. It is a fact that it cannot pass through your gut intact, but the counterargument is that if you take enough of it, some may sneak through. The odds of any real benefit are low, and I'd suggest that you try to go without it for a while - if you have been making pain-free progress while taking it, you don't know whether you'd have made the same progress without. That pint of 2% before and after is gold, and your pocket will appreciate the extra hundred bucks per month.

Please post your results if you try it.

I've tried BCAA's and L-Glutamine on and off several times and never noticed any difference at all. Same goes for Creatine. I know that most people at least gain a little bit of weight while on CM, but for me it does absolutely nothing at all, no matter how big a dose and for how long I take it.

I'm with Garm on this. I like to eat high quality real food.

Ross:

To be honest, you need to concentrate on two things:

1. Proper nutrition. It doesn't matter if it's the Zone, a paleo type diet, or whatever, just make sure you are eating enough protein, fruits and veggies in real food form.

2. Proper training: Dude, I know you're young, and it's exciting to try different shit out, but learn the basic stuff first. Proper exercise form, proper program design, intelligent progression.

Instead of blowing money on supplements, I'd rather see you save that cash and buy lifting toys. A safety squat bar, a trap bar, a thick bar....even Tyler's power rings...jumpstretch bands, grip toys, chains, even kettlebells. That shit will be useful for far longer than it takes to piss the last B-12 tab out of your body.

Overreliance on supplements is many a neophyte lifter's downfall.

Morning Uncle....

Ya know, the supp industry is 99.9 % crap, but hey a "fool & his/her money" and all that shit...

I feel that a few of those products help and while WFR is probably always better many times, for me anyway, the convenience outweighs the benefits.

It may be placebo effect, but if I think I'm getting results from ICE or power drive or whatever, WTF difference does it make. Its my $$ to spend. You may not consider it money well spent but others do.

Send Ms Garm & her big titties my way to fix me some food and I'll gladly drop the supps :)

Shaf wrote:Ross:

To be honest, you need to concentrate on two things:

1. Proper nutrition. It doesn't matter if it's the Zone, a paleo type diet, or whatever, just make sure you are eating enough protein, fruits and veggies in real food form.

2. Proper training: Dude, I know you're young, and it's exciting to try different shit out, but learn the basic stuff first. Proper exercise form, proper program design, intelligent progression.

Instead of blowing money on supplements, I'd rather see you save that cash and buy lifting toys. A safety squat bar, a trap bar, a thick bar....even Tyler's power rings...jumpstretch bands, grip toys, chains, even kettlebells. That shit will be useful for far longer than it takes to piss the last B-12 tab out of your body.

Overreliance on supplements is many a neophyte lifter's downfall.

Shaf,

Your advice is good, but unless you are acquainted with my nutrition and training, you are out of line in directing at me. Have you been in my kitchen behind my back? If you had, you would know that my diet is virtually perfect. Have you checked out my DD training log? If you had, you would know that not a week has gone by in the last nine months in which I have not practiced the clean-and-jerk, the snatch, and a squat. You would also know that my gains have been great, and that my planning has been meticulously planned and diligently carried out.

Relying on supplements? For the past couple months all I have taken is two multivitamins a day, and ZMA. That's it. I use the supps intermittently, as a tool. I found them useful and decided to pass on my experience. I certainly won't make the same mistake twice.

Don't get too bent out of shape Ross. Keep posting your results with things. Some of us like to hear about others experiences. Anecdotal evidence and subjective results are good to share.

Garm just likes to stir up shit

(pats on back) atta boy.