Chicago cop charged with murder, 1st time in 35 years

[tough old man]

Spells, stop. Unloading a full mag is a panic, stress response. I've seen it many times with even highly trained soldiers.

[Grandpa's Spells]

You live in a fantasy world guided by salon.com. You also have it backwards, which is of no surprise to me, coming from you: the accountability is from the top on down, not 'from cadets to mayor'. This is more than just words, but I don't expect you to get that.

You're nitpicking word order. When is accountability not from the top on down? I also didn't start this saying, "Wow, that cop is going to get it," I brought up the mayor.

First off: jig criminals go out with the intention of doing jig harm. Cops, even bad ones, are not stupid enough to do that given the visibility and scrutiny that is on them.

Nobody cares about their intention (and I rather doubt you can determine it in every single case). They care about the unjustified shooting rather than how the cop feels about it. Regardless of how they feel, or how stupid it may be, every couple months we see another video of a shooting that's pretty tough to justify, and cops generally walk.

Second: you think those six other guys are flippantly saying 'no big fucking deal, we're covered in our blue wall....'

Again, you're sensationalizing. Nobody saying it's flippant. The problem is, after careful deliberation, they're deciding to back up a murderer 100% of the time. The system must strongly incentive that, and that's a problem.

As you say, the chain of command allegedly backed them up.....ask yourself 'why?' your lefty mayor Rahm and his posse underneath him did so. Could it be there is another side to the story? Is there some other reason they wanted it swept under the rug?

Because it's politically expedient, and nobody's accountable. It's politically tough to piss off the police union here. We have at least one case of the DA deliberately under-charging a cop (who should have been charged with murder) so that he couldn't be convicted.

If you had soldiers in war with no functioning UCMJ and poor accountability from leadership, you'd see a lot more war crimes. Same in chemical businesses with no EPA, banks with no regulatory oversight. Cops are no different.

[Grandpa's Spells]

Spells, stop. Unloading a full mag is a panic, stress response. I've seen it many times with even highly trained soldiers.

One more time: the shooting, regardless of the motivations of the shooter, is not the problem. The problem is that a report gets signed off on saying the suspect lunged at the cop, and everybody on the scene backs up that false narrative, and then they suppress all video evidence.

[tough old man]

Well luckily this will all be forgotten after your Syrian "refugees" get there and detonate a few times.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Well luckily this will all be forgotten after your Syrian "refugees" get there and detonate a few times.

LOL. Not to mention the ones already here.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

You live in a fantasy world guided by salon.com. You also have it backwards, which is of no surprise to me, coming from you: the accountability is from the top on down, not 'from cadets to mayor'. This is more than just words, but I don't expect you to get that.

You're nitpicking word order. When is accountability not from the top on down? I also didn't start this saying, "Wow, that cop is going to get it," I brought up the mayor.

First off: jig criminals go out with the intention of doing jig harm. Cops, even bad ones, are not stupid enough to do that given the visibility and scrutiny that is on them.

Nobody cares about their intention (and I rather doubt you can determine it in every single case). They care about the unjustified shooting rather than how the cop feels about it. Regardless of how they feel, or how stupid it may be, every couple months we see another video of a shooting that's pretty tough to justify, and cops generally walk.

Second: you think those six other guys are flippantly saying 'no big fucking deal, we're covered in our blue wall....'

Again, you're sensationalizing. Nobody saying it's flippant. The problem is, after careful deliberation, they're deciding to back up a murderer 100% of the time. The system must strongly incentive that, and that's a problem.

As you say, the chain of command allegedly backed them up.....ask yourself 'why?' your lefty mayor Rahm and his posse underneath him did so. Could it be there is another side to the story? Is there some other reason they wanted it swept under the rug?

Because it's politically expedient, and nobody's accountable. It's politically tough to piss off the police union here. We have at least one case of the DA deliberately under-charging a cop (who should have been charged with murder) so that he couldn't be convicted.

If you had soldiers in war with no functioning UCMJ and poor accountability from leadership, you'd see a lot more war crimes. Same in chemical businesses with no EPA, banks with no regulatory oversight. Cops are no different.

You have him already tried and convicted as a "murderer" watch how this unfolds when you get the rest of the facts. Like I said, I don't think most cops would have shot that mope, I do think there is more to the story than you're seeing. Just like Mike Brown........

[Kazuya Mishima]

I think we've all learned a valuable lesson from this. Namely, that modern hollow-point 9mm has plenty of stopping power and incapacitation potential. Especially, if you empty the magazine into the perpetrator.

Remember children...only small women and guys with manlet hands carry single stack 9's. Choose high capacity pistols...every...single...time.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

I think we've all learned a valuable lesson from this. Namely, that modern hollow-point 9mm has plenty of stopping power and incapacitation potential. Especially, if you empty the magazine into the perpetrator.

Remember children...only small women and guys with manlet hands carry single stack 9's. Choose high capacity pistols...every...single...time.

Funny you say that.

My academy class was one of the largest in NYPD history and it was the last one to issue .38's and Cuomo (Mario) had already put policy into place for us and guys already on patrol to get 9's. I only spent 3 years on the job, so I had a .38, two speed loaders, and a back-up 5 shot .38 Centennial....which was also my off-duty weapon. I carried this as an inside/outside, on and off patrol.

I think one of the things that might help fix 'spray and pray' incidents for LEO's is to go back to wheel guns or single stacks. NOT .38's those fucking rounds bounced off of windshields.....but .357 or single stack .45 *might* help things. I don't know policy for given PD's, but back in the day, I had to fire a box of ammo per month and had to pay for that out of pocket. (usually at the indoor range, so it was dark/night scenario). I think cops would probably be better off spending more time in the tactics house and training fire control discipline vs. 'sensitivity training', but hey, what the fuck do I know? As T.O.M. said, even highly trained troops will dump as a response to stress and as I said, so will little old ladies from Pasadena, none are 'murderers', but the more reactionary training you can give cops vs. classroom/lectures, the better.

[The Ginger Beard Man]

I think we've all learned a valuable lesson from this. Namely, that modern hollow-point 9mm has plenty of stopping power and incapacitation potential. Especially, if you empty the magazine into the perpetrator.

Remember children...only small women and guys with manlet hands carry single stack 9's. Choose high capacity pistols...every...single...time.

Funny you say that.

My academy class was one of the largest in NYPD history and it was the last one to issue .38's and Cuomo (Mario) had already put policy into place for us and guys already on patrol to get 9's. I only spent 3 years on the job, so I had a .38, two speed loaders, and a back-up 5 shot .38 Centennial....which was also my off-duty weapon. I carried this as an inside/outside, on and off patrol.

I think one of the things that might help fix 'spray and pray' incidents for LEO's is to go back to wheel guns or single stacks. NOT .38's those fucking rounds bounced off of windshields.....but .357 or single stack .45 *might* help things. I don't know policy for given PD's, but back in the day, I had to fire a box of ammo per month and had to pay for that out of pocket. (usually at the indoor range, so it was dark/night scenario). I think cops would probably be better off spending more time in the tactics house and training fire control discipline vs. 'sensitivity training', but hey, what the fuck do I know? As T.O.M. said, even highly trained troops will dump as a response to stress and as I said, so will little old ladies from Pasadena, none are 'murderers', but the more reactionary training you can give cops vs. classroom/lectures, the better.

I have wondered about these points in the past. Both the training and the weapons. It seems like every time cops fire their weapons, they just completely unload and often don't hit the target with many rounds.
I was #199 on the list for NYPD at one time and have never for a moment regretted not going for it.
A big reason I didn't do it was seeing all these shooting incidents that seem to be training issues, and having doubts about being backed up if I did have to pull a gun.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

having doubts about being backed up if I did have to pull a gun.

It's an awful feeling to do the right thing in the line of duty and get treated like a possible criminal suspect for doing so. You're a NY'er so you remember.....I was a cop during the "Dirty 30" scandal, which was on the westside of Harlem (I was an East Harlem cop), and at the end of Dinkins and beginning of Rudy, so the town was a mess and the cop hate was higher than normal.

[johno]

Same scenario but with a civilian shooter, I would wager that 90% of cops would arrest the shooter.

PS - Murder is overcharging, probably a political sop for the masses. If the jury doesn't get other choices, a Not Guilty is likely.

[johno]

The Tueller Drill has been perverted by some cops to give Carte Blanche to shoot anyone with a knife who is within 21 feet of the officer. Some officers feel that they must shoot under those circumstances.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

For starters, the drill involved a cop with a holstered weapon, with the cop hypothetically unaware that the bad guy was going to attack.
When a cop has drawn his weapon and ID'd a threat, the "21 foot rule" does not apply.

*****

I'm the first to say that all handgun rounds are underpowered, and that 16 rounds aren't necessarily excessive. But once the kid dropped to the ground.... Enough.

[Grandpa's Spells]

PS - Murder is overcharging, probably a political sop for the masses. If the jury doesn't get other choices, a Not Guilty is likely.

It's actually the opposite. If you point a gun at a person and deliberately pull the trigger, you will be acquitted of manslaughter, because that's a murder charge.

It happened here. The DA charged a cop with manslaughter during an election year who pointed his gun into a crowd and fired. He was acquitted of manslaughter, specifically because he was under-charged. The judge in the case:

Judge Dennis Porter ruled that prosecutors failed to prove that Dante Servin acted recklessly, saying that Illinois courts have consistently held that anytime an individual points a gun at an intended victim and shoots, it is an intentional act, not a reckless one. He all but said prosecutors should have charged Servin with murder, not involuntary manslaughter.

The prosecutor was accused of deliberately throwing the case by under-charging the cop.

[johno]

I should have said "Murder One" is overcharging. It is, unless some racial animus or prior desire to kill suspects is shown.
"Murder Two" applies, maybe.

The real issue is not whether the cop intended to use lethal force, but whether that force was justified.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

I should have said "Murder One" is overcharging. It is, unless some racial animus or prior desire to kill suspects is shown.
"Murder Two" applies, maybe.

The real issue is not whether the cop intended to use lethal force, but whether that force was justified.

No premeditation + 'knowingly and willfully' will come into dispute + justification from the cop's perspective (like it or not)= Manslaughter conviction at the worst. Which based strictly on the video, is probably exactly what he deserves.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Judge Dennis Porter ruled that prosecutors failed to prove that Dante Servin acted recklessly, saying that Illinois courts have consistently held that anytime an individual points a gun at an intended victim and shoots, it is an intentional act, not a reckless one. He all but said prosecutors should have charged Servin with murder, not involuntary manslaughter.

At that moment in time, the person shot in this instance is a perpetrator of a crime, not a victim.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Greasy Jew throws the Mick under the bus.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/12/01/ ... intendent/

[johno]

Sixteen shots fired, but only four or five hits to the torso.

In this case, the shooting was wrong. But I don't buy into THE HORROR of a cop dumping his magazine on an attacker.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

At the risk of a chuckle from a high brow such as Spells, art imitates life and there was an episode of Blue Bloods a couple of years back that addressed a 'sort of' similar scenario: Hottie female cop shot a perp. She swore up and down she was justified because of xyz. There was video that said otherwise. Some lefty political watchdog bitch was all over her like stink on shit. The commish, convinced her to go through the tactics house as she was 'trained' and had a conceal/carry and KNEW she could do better. She goes through this and empties her magazine, gets the events all wrong (especially shots fired) and learns that even in a training environment, the fog of war is the fog of war. We've seen reporters go through this recently, too.

[DrDonkeyLove]

Greasy Jew throws the Mick under the bus.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/12/01/ ... intendent/

2nd amendment opposing police chief is just a Dem politician. Fuck him.

He'll end up with a sweet fed/state gig. Fuck us.

[Kazuya Mishima]

[Turdacious]

A little context:

A full year has passed since Chicago raised serious questions about the accuracy of the Chicago Police Department’s crime statistics under Mayor Rahm Emanuel and his handpicked top cop, Garry McCarthy. The investigation found that the department underreported homicides in 2013 by misclassifying at least 10 killings, including that of Tiara Groves. We also revealed how the department systematically downgraded other violent felonies and serious property crimes. More than 40 current and former police officers of various ranks told us that the misclassifications resulted from intense pressure that top police superiors put on rank-and-file officers to produce crime numbers that go in only one direction: down.

After publication, did the police superintendent’s office check into the truth behind the cases we flagged? It doesn’t appear so. According to scores of internal emails we obtained through a request filed under the Freedom of Information Act, top officials in the police department and in Mayor Emanuel’s office, working in unison, focused on damage control.

Currently, Chicago’s official figures show a 0.7 percent drop in homicides from 2013 to 2014. Curious, given that there was a 14 percent increase in the number of people shot. “Generally speaking, if your shootings are going up, then your murders should be going up, and vice versa,” says John Eterno, a criminologist at Molloy College on Long Island.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magaz ... ime-stats/

[TerryB]

I remember reading about Chicago rewriting its statistics to look better than they really were.

It was a few years back now that it came to light.

It didn't surprise me given what Rahm learned, or brought to, Obama's cabinet, which has rewritten statistics as vigorously as possible so they can say things look better than they are. Budget reports, unemployment statistics, etc.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Rahm is a pig. A Kosher pig, but a pig nonetheless. He should be despised.

[Yes I Have Balls]

.... Obama's cabinet, which has rewritten statistics as vigorously as possible so they can say things look better than they are. Budget reports, unemployment statistics, etc.

Cite please? Thanks in advance.