Drinking helps you live longer. Period. Full stop.

[The Ginger Beard Man]

Oh, and Dr Hill was interesting. I only got forty minutes in but I'll continue tomorrow. I did like some of his ideas, and don't doubt that they could work for some.

[The Ginger Beard Man]

GBM...your perspective is probably the most valuable one on this thread.

Most? Not so sure.
I don't really get the science, I'm just not much of a science guy. And I'm limited by the fact that because AA has worked out pretty well for me, I'm not personally open to much else. I mean, if you told me there was a pill that was proven to allow me to drink safely, and I wouldn't need meeting and all the other stuff, I probably wouldn't take it.
But, thank you. I do appreciate it.

[bennyonesix]

B16,

Out of curiosity, what's your perspective/motivation for the intense interest on the topic?

That is a good question. I don't really know but I think it goes to the heart of who I am... But here goes...

I am an analogy guy. I understand things through similarities to other things and not directly. In school and at work people used to goof on me about explaining things by talking about something completely unrelated. I never really feel I understand something until I get an "oooooohhhhh, it's really just the same thing as this..." moment.

That being said, I've always had a hard time functioning effectively in society. I seem to be off at a different angle from everyone else. What others find comfortable, I find agonizing. What others see as enjoyable, I find unbearable. The split and disconnect confuses and hurts me. It causes me guilt and shame. As a kid I just wandered around with wide eyes staring at all the weird things people were doing... I have always wanted to know what the fuck was going on with me and why I didn't fit in.

I get along well with alcoholics (sober ones) and alcoholism was one of those things that seemed to have a lot in common with whatever the fuck was going on with me... So, I studied it and found it fascinating. And there is a lot of overlap between the "alcoholic personality" and "my personality" but...

It wasn't the answer, so I put it with the other discarded possibilities: Schizophrenia, autism and social anxiety.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

GBM...your perspective is probably the most valuable one on this thread.

I would agree. And, GBM and I sat F2F for 2+ hours talking about all sorts of shit, both knowing one another was on the wagon and AA did not come up a single time. Although I am certain I good naturedly quipped a joke about my own sobriety.

What I did not personally witness at AA is the lack of God element in the AA group I went to and the couple of others I saw by way of other things. "Serenity Prayer" and "Our Father" were both part of the group I went to. Also, IME, when you tell people you just don't buy into that giving up control to God/higher power it doesn't sit well. What also came my way, again, by really nice people who genuinely cared, is that I *needed* to pick a religion to follow. A God to choose, a "Way" if you will. I am 101% positive I did not misunderstand the messages.

Going back to AA with my friend after being gone for 1+ years was also a tad odd. I felt (subjective, I know) that they'd almost have rather seen that I've fallen off the wagon and that I *needed* to come back vs. them being happy that I was doing my own damned thing (and I was fully abstaining at that time).

Again, I think this is a bit of a different group. It's part well-employed biker, part Tommy Bahama convention for the guys. The women in the group were all over the board although there was a young, insanely hot pharma tech in that group who is brilliant, and a bit batshit crazy. She'd be great here, actually.

[Turdacious]

I don't really get the science, I'm just not much of a science guy.

Not necessarily-- you're an applied science guy. You found something that worked for you, and you do it.

I have a lot of friends and family members who've been to rehab, or work in the rehab field. In their cases, it is generally the court ordered kind. From what I've seen, the same mentalities apply-- although there is a funding aspect that complicates things. The best people in the field are the ones who can cut through the bullshit, but they are a minority.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

There are some big brains participating on this thread but where I continue to scratch my head is where you all seem to value and cite studies.

I cannot get my head around how any study can paint a broad enough swath that is at the same time accurate. I.E. Turd talking about court ordered rehab....that's a common one. But who, if anyone, studies people who don't get pinched in a DUI, a bar fight, smacking their wife, ect? I sense that group: the long term regular drinkers who might not even be aware there is a problem or at least a road of possible concern....they're not measured out. So when studies show of the people who just up and walk away from their habit or whatever, I suspect those people come by way of having additional, compulsive, motivators. (Probation, Time Served, Lien on Pay, whatever....). Otherwise, where else would they get the datapoints and the subjects?

[Koko, Beware]

I'm a baby in the program relative to GBM but I've had similar experience wrt to the Higher Power...any mention of God or Jesus in almost all the meetings I've been to is usually met with barely concealed derision or eyerolls. I don't know--I wonder if that is a function of where he and I live (the Northeast, and probably pretty liberal pockets all things considered) vs. other places.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

I'm a baby in the program relative to GBM but I've had similar experience wrt to the Higher Power...any mention of God or Jesus in almost all the meetings I've been to is usually met with barely concealed derision or eyerolls. I don't know--I wonder if that is a function of where he and I live (the Northeast, and probably pretty liberal pockets all things considered) vs. other places.

Interesting.

Not even the "Serenity Prayer"?

[Turdacious]

There are some big brains participating on this thread but where I continue to scratch my head is where you all seem to value and cite studies.

I cannot get my head around how any study can paint a broad enough swath that is at the same time accurate. I.E. Turd talking about court ordered rehab....that's a common one. But who, if anyone, studies people who don't get pinched in a DUI, a bar fight, smacking their wife, ect? I sense that group: the long term regular drinkers who might not even be aware there is a problem or at least a road of possible concern....they're not measured out. So when studies show of the people who just up and walk away from their habit or whatever, I suspect those people come by way of having additional, compulsive, motivators. (Probation, Time Served, Lien on Pay, whatever....). Otherwise, where else would they get the datapoints and the subjects?

To your point, there's no money in guys with no indicators like the ones you talk about. It's likely there are no studies. There's no money in AA, so good studies probably don't exist.

Law enforcement in some areas has some pretty good stats (Compstat et al.), but not every agency is good at it. Some Native tribes have good stats too. Neither group of stats applies to everybody though, as you point out.

My guess is that the success rate of people who self refer to some form of treatment (AA or something more formal) is much higher than those who are required to go.

I tend to fall back on the basics-- the right kind of buddies are far more important than programs. As far as that goes, Napoleon Hill is a better advocate than any scientific study.

[bennyonesix]

There are some big brains participating on this thread but where I continue to scratch my head is where you all seem to value and cite studies.

I cannot get my head around how any study can paint a broad enough swath that is at the same time accurate. I.E. Turd talking about court ordered rehab....that's a common one. But who, if anyone, studies people who don't get pinched in a DUI, a bar fight, smacking their wife, ect? I sense that group: the long term regular drinkers who might not even be aware there is a problem or at least a road of possible concern....they're not measured out. So when studies show of the people who just up and walk away from their habit or whatever, I suspect those people come by way of having additional, compulsive, motivators. (Probation, Time Served, Lien on Pay, whatever....). Otherwise, where else would they get the datapoints and the subjects?

I think one of the things that can help in this discussion is the parsing out of viewpoint (as defined by goal). I see 3 (at least) different viewpoints on the phenomena:

1) Societal/Legislative: As a member of society, what is this "drug problem" thing? And, what do we do about it?

2) Therapeutic: How does this problem manifest in individuals? And, What can we do to "help" the individuals who present themselves?

3) Sufferer/Alcoholic/Abuser: What is the actual nature of my problem with substance x? How can I deal with it?


Thank god I have no experience with #3. I didn't mean to offer any advice or insight into treatment... I especially didn't mean to imply that "spontaneous resolution" was a treatment option.

[bennyonesix]

But who, if anyone, studies people who don't get pinched in a DUI, a bar fight, smacking their wife, ect? I sense that group: the long term regular drinkers who might not even be aware there is a problem or at least a road of possible concern....they're not measured out.

What are we saying (looking from the outside) when we say these people have a problem?

How would one go about even studying them?

From any viewpoint, what does it mean to say someone has a problem when there are no negative repercussions?

Is the group you speak of actually as free of negative repercussions as you are saying? Not a leading question.

[Turdacious]

From any viewpoint, what does it mean to say someone has a problem when there are no negative repercussions?

Is the group you speak of actually as free of negative repercussions as you are saying? Not a leading question.

Not all repercussions and indicators are easily measureable.

[Blaidd Drwg]

From any viewpoint, what does it mean to say someone has a problem when there are no negative repercussions?

Is the group you speak of actually as free of negative repercussions as you are saying? Not a leading question.

Not all repercussions and indicators are easily measureable.

True...this is why VenBog/Koko/GBM..are super valuable....having been there, they are attesting to a lot more subtlety in the discussion than can be measured. I should have placed you all 3 in the MVP category because TBF, until we started talking abou this stuff offline, I wasn't even sure I really understood or believed in addiction.

The question is, if "negative reprcussions" can't be measured well or in many cases defined well...(you know it when you see it) isn't that pretty bright line indicator that as a society we ought not be in the business of meddling around with it?

[bennyonesix]

The question is, if "negative reprcussions" can't be measured well or in many cases defined well...(you know it when you see it) isn't that pretty bright line indicator that as a society we ought not be in the business of meddling around with it?

Interesting point... But who is defining what is a negative repercussion is important, no? I think the gray area you are talking about falls into the subjective experience of drug abuse/addiciton... Drunk driving, fighting, theft, vandalism etc are obvious societal repercussions and tickets, loss of license, fines and jail time are obvious personal negative repercussions... Along with divorce and job loss and social isolation...

But I agree, to the extent the suffering is subjective to the user, the State should probably not get involved... But what % are those things? And is the State really trying to deal with that....

[Koko, Beware]

I'm a baby in the program relative to GBM but I've had similar experience wrt to the Higher Power...any mention of God or Jesus in almost all the meetings I've been to is usually met with barely concealed derision or eyerolls. I don't know--I wonder if that is a function of where he and I live (the Northeast, and probably pretty liberal pockets all things considered) vs. other places.

Interesting.

Not even the "Serenity Prayer"?

Great question. Can't speak for GBM's exp but for mine--those are kind of handled like rote expressions. And I guess it's hard to know what folks are reacting to when someone talks a lot about God...certainly could be the speaker in many cases.

[Turdacious]

The question is, if "negative reprcussions" can't be measured well or in many cases defined well...(you know it when you see it) isn't that pretty bright line indicator that as a society we ought not be in the business of meddling around with it?

Interesting point... But who is defining what is a negative repercussion is important, no? I think the gray area you are talking about falls into the subjective experience of drug abuse/addiciton... Drunk driving, fighting, theft, vandalism etc are obvious societal repercussions and tickets, loss of license, fines and jail time are obvious personal negative repercussions... Along with divorce and job loss and social isolation...

But I agree, to the extent the suffering is subjective to the user, the State should probably not get involved... But what % are those things? And is the State really trying to deal with that....

Yes, but only for discrete populations. One example:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-serv ... tance.aspx

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

But who, if anyone, studies people who don't get pinched in a DUI, a bar fight, smacking their wife, ect? I sense that group: the long term regular drinkers who might not even be aware there is a problem or at least a road of possible concern....they're not measured out.

What are we saying (looking from the outside) when we say these people have a problem?

How would one go about even studying them?

From any viewpoint, what does it mean to say someone has a problem when there are no negative repercussions?

Is the group you speak of actually as free of negative repercussions as you are saying? Not a leading question.

I'm saying there are likely far more people who don't up and walk away from a bad/habit addiction, such as drinking than has been stated here. I think there is a shit ton of suffering in silence and outright avoidance. I also think that the term "highly functioning alcoholic" holds a lot of weight/is very real. Perhaps moreso than even a highly functional fatass/fast food junkie.

I agree, you can't go about studying them, which was my point. You could, I guess, go to a zip code such as mine and poll 1000 adults and see what they say. I can't think of anything better than that.

The repercussions as BD noted can be very subtle and certainly not involve the courts or even your medical provider and no, just because you don't get locked up or divorced does not mean you're free from repercussions.

Thanks for making me clarify....I can see where my comments could have been confusing.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

I'm a baby in the program relative to GBM but I've had similar experience wrt to the Higher Power...any mention of God or Jesus in almost all the meetings I've been to is usually met with barely concealed derision or eyerolls. I don't know--I wonder if that is a function of where he and I live (the Northeast, and probably pretty liberal pockets all things considered) vs. other places.

Interesting.

Not even the "Serenity Prayer"?

Great question. Can't speak for GBM's exp but for mine--those are kind of handled like rote expressions. And I guess it's hard to know what folks are reacting to when someone talks a lot about God...certainly could be the speaker in many cases.

I guess, my point is AA says you don't need religion, yet without believing in a higher power that can help you, you really can only do 3 or 4 of their 12 steps (off the top of my head).

[Koko, Beware]

I guess, my point is AA says you don't need religion, yet without believing in a higher power that can help you, you really can only do 3 or 4 of their 12 steps (off the top of my head).

Yeah it is a tough one. I haven't worked this out all the way in my head yet, only that for me the focus feels best when I consider the historical rather than the spiritual record...I think less about powerlessness and more about practicality--I can't remember ever enjoying the second drink, but I can't remember ever not wanting it, and in that way I sort of think about it like a switch-hitter who is so much better from one side of the plate....like "fuck it I know being a switch-hitter ought to make me a more valuable player but I just haven't ever hit well righty and my numbers are pretty good as a lefty so fuck it, I'm just hitting lefty." For me that works.

[The Venerable Bogatir X]

Skin that cat how you see fit, amigo.

[Koko, Beware]

Skin that cat how you see fit, amigo.

Right back at you. All we can do.

[The Ginger Beard Man]

Skin that cat how you see fit, amigo.

Right back at you. All we can do.

Which is exactly the point of "Why don't you choose you're own conception of god?"
Nobody can tell you what to believe, and a "higher power" doesn't have to be divine, or based in any religion.
I'm at work now and can't really post more until later.
But think of Step 3 and read my sig. Bad is the most AA-nonAA-motherfucker I know. My girlfriend (10 years sober) and I get a kick out of many of his posts here and on Facebook.

[Blaidd Drwg]

I think this is a compliment.

I'd go to an AA meeting to find out but I'm afraid I'll pick up smoking.

[The Ginger Beard Man]

I just got home from a 12 hour plus work day, so this may not be as well thought out as it could have been earlier.

In my experience with AA and the higher power thing:
First of all, to Bogatir's question, every meeting I have ever attended ended with a prayer, usually the serenity prayer sometimes the Lord's Prayer- which tends to piss off at least a few people in the room.
As for myself, I'm more agnostic than anything. I don't have an issue with the god thing, or what people call it. I believe in a power greater than myself, and I have no idea what that is, nor to I care to think about it. The universe is perfect, I'm not.
There's often some asshole in the room who will tell you, "You better get a god or you're gonna drink", or some shit like that, but the literature, and most people I've come across, are usually pretty chill about it. I know a lot of atheists in AA, and in many cases they have found a way to work the steps that works for them. Maybe that's a New York thing, maybe not.
The fact is that AA has its roots in the Oxford Groups, which was a Christian group, and definitely left a lasting mark on the organization. But they broke with that, and I don't think AA as an entity wants to impose anything on anyone. Even the steps are optional.

I've also been thinking about addiction and what it is, or even, as BD wonders, if it exists. I haven't really experienced physical addiction, and never needed medical intervention. The AA literature talks a lot about "the mental obsession" and "the phenomenon of craving". I have experienced both.
I thought about booze every damn day for ten years, about how much I'd drank the night before,,if I had, how long it had been since I hadn't, whether or not I would that day, and whether or not I could stop permanently. I don't miss that.
When I'd been sober about 8 or 9 months, I was tending bar and I picked up my soda without looking at it and sipped. It was the wrong glass. It was the remnants of a Dewars on the rocks, melting ice mixed with a bit of scotch. I spit it out, went to a meeting after work, and then the obsession returned for the next couple of weeks.
I was shaky and a little strung out from time to time, but never had the shakes or DTs or anything like that. But at the end, my liver would spasm from time to time.

Anyway, there's a reason AA never responds to anything that's said or written about it, and I don't want to set myself up as some sort of spokesman.,I'm not qualified for that. I just have my own experience and observations about it.

And again, the article Spells (I think) originally posted didn't really bother me at all.

[The Ginger Beard Man]

Oh, yeah. I don't think anyone smokes inside AA meetings anymore.