hot enough for ya?

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Turdacious
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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California Atty. Gen. Kamala D. Harris is investigating whether Exxon Mobil Corp. repeatedly lied to the public and its shareholders about the risk to its business from climate change — and whether such actions could amount to securities fraud and violations of environmental laws.

Harris' office is reviewing what Exxon Mobil knew about global warming and what the company told investors, a person close to the investigation said.

The move follows published reports, based on internal company documents, suggesting that during the 1980s and 1990s the company, then known as Exxon, used climate research as part of its planning and other business practices but simultaneously argued publicly that climate-change science was not clear cut [...] Legal experts say the SEC requires that companies disclose the risks of climate change to their business operations but that the agency has taken almost no action to enforce it.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-e ... story.html

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Just a guess, but that price change probably doesn't include dividends. .
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Obama and friends have decided to put confiscation and incarceration into the mix for "climate deniers".
Detroit News and Wall Street Journal
Detroit News wrote:Attorney General Loretta Lynch is exploring the propriety of an inquisition to investigate anyone who questions climate change science. But in a society that protects free speech and the right to dissent, the answer to the question is evident — it itself is heretical and dangerous. The First Amendment couldn’t be much clearer on the right of Americans to swim against the dogmatic stream.

Lynch told the U.S. Senate last week that her Department of Justice has discussed the possibility of pursuing civil action against climate change deniers and has referred to the FBI a request to determine whether the department could act.

She was prodded by Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse, D-Rhode Island, who is at war with the fossil fuel industry. Whitehouse complains the DOJ has done nothing to address what he calls a “climate denial scheme” and compared it to “mischief” by the tobacco industry to deceive consumers on the health threats posed by smoking. Whitehouse has referred to a judicial decision that found big tobacco’s “denial scheme” to amount to racketeering.

Even if the science of climate change is as settled as proponents contend, Lynch’s actions blatantly trample the Constitution. The First Amendment protects even the most hateful and nonsensical speech because individuals in a free and liberal society understand the detrimental effect of stifling dissent...
The Ministry of Truth has spoken.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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True science needs all the protection it can get. I hope they will start arresting cholesterol skeptics and dissenting quantum physicists.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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DrDonkeyLove wrote:Obama and friends have decided to put confiscation and incarceration into the mix for "climate deniers".
Detroit News and Wall Street Journal
Detroit News wrote:Attorney General Loretta Lynch is exploring the propriety of an inquisition to investigate anyone who questions climate change science. But in a society that protects free speech and the right to dissent, the answer to the question is evident — it itself is heretical and dangerous. The First Amendment couldn’t be much clearer on the right of Americans to swim against the dogmatic stream.

Lynch told the U.S. Senate last week that her Department of Justice has discussed the possibility of pursuing civil action against climate change deniers and has referred to the FBI a request to determine whether the department could act.

She was prodded by Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse, D-Rhode Island, who is at war with the fossil fuel industry. Whitehouse complains the DOJ has done nothing to address what he calls a “climate denial scheme” and compared it to “mischief” by the tobacco industry to deceive consumers on the health threats posed by smoking. Whitehouse has referred to a judicial decision that found big tobacco’s “denial scheme” to amount to racketeering.

Even if the science of climate change is as settled as proponents contend, Lynch’s actions blatantly trample the Constitution. The First Amendment protects even the most hateful and nonsensical speech because individuals in a free and liberal society understand the detrimental effect of stifling dissent...
The Ministry of Truth has spoken.
So, The Ministry of Truth's regional teams are now in the mix. Our statist masters have initiated a federal and state pincer movement to strike fear into deniers. Not following the government line will cost you.....a lot. You'll get tons of bad press and you'll have to spend millions of $$$$ to defend yourself. G_d help you if you lose. This should chill the blood of the evil deniers.

Investor's Business Daily
The top law enforcement officers in 16 states have formed a coalition to investigate and prosecute companies that don’t agree with them on climate change. In other words, those not practicing orthodoxy will be punished.

Joining this distinguished group of modern-day Torquemadas at its formation was Al Gore, who apparently has nothing better to do in his post-vice presidency than to keep hectoring everyone about the evils of fossil-fuel use.

“We cannot continue to allow the fossil fuel industry or any industry to treat our atmosphere like an open sewer or mislead the public about the impact they have on the health of our people and the health of our planet,” Gore said Tuesday in a news conference held in Manhattan.

Standing next to Gore was New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, who promised that the group of state attorneys general will hunt down the global warming heretics and punish them.

“If there are companies, whether they’re utilities, whether they’re fossil fuel companies, committing fraud in an effort to maximize their short-term profits at the expense of the people we represent, we want to find out about it,” he said. “We want to expose it and want to pursue them to the fullest extent of the law.”
Lefty Greeny Site
Great bald faced lie here. Wonder if he'll be investigated.
Healey and U.S. Virgin Islands Attorney General Claude Walker announced today that they are joining these investigations.

“It’s not that much an environmental issue as about survival,” said Walker. Under threat of destruction and danger from increasingly violent tropical storms and hurricanes caused by climate change, Virgin Islands residents are being forced to consider relocating away from the region, he said.
Tee hee stuff here.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Scientists nearly double sea level rise projections for 2100, because of Antarctica
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ene ... tists-say/
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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researchers at the National Snow and Ice Data Center . . . part of the University of Colorado at Boulder, reported that the spread of Arctic sea ice set a new record low for the second straight year,
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/29/world/cli ... -low-feat/
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Global temperatures in February were the most above average since weather record keeping began nearly 150 years ago
http://time.com/4261719/february-heat-r ... te-change/
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Climate change can be expected to boost the number of annual premature U.S. deaths from heat waves in coming decades and to increase mental health problems from extreme weather like hurricanes and floods, a U.S. study said on Monday.

"I don't know that we've seen something like this before, where we have a force that has such a multitude of effects," Surgeon General Vivek Murthy told reporters at the White House about the study. "There's not one single source that we can target with climate change, there are multiple paths that we have to address."
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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dead man walking wrote:
Global temperatures in February were the most above average since weather record keeping began nearly 150 years ago
http://time.com/4261719/february-heat-r ... te-change/
AH, we are quoting Michael Mann, the true example of the climate "science" brethren.

Hopefully Dr. Michael E. Mann Doesn't Sue Me For This Column

Michael Mann & Lawyer Exposed In Climate Court Case
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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dead man walking wrote:
researchers at the National Snow and Ice Data Center . . . part of the University of Colorado at Boulder, reported that the spread of Arctic sea ice set a new record low for the second straight year,
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/29/world/cli ... -low-feat/
The link on the same page leads to this:

Antarctica is gaining ice, NASA study says
Many scientists agree that the Antarctic Peninsula and parts of West Antarctica are losing ice and that the rate of loss is increasing. In the eastern part of the continent and part of the interior, there have been ice gains. These gains, scientists from the study say, are more than the losses in the rest of the region.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Sangoma wrote:
dead man walking wrote:
researchers at the National Snow and Ice Data Center . . . part of the University of Colorado at Boulder, reported that the spread of Arctic sea ice set a new record low for the second straight year,
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/29/world/cli ... -low-feat/
The link on the same page leads to this:

Antarctica is gaining ice, NASA study says
Many scientists agree that the Antarctic Peninsula and parts of West Antarctica are losing ice and that the rate of loss is increasing. In the eastern part of the continent and part of the interior, there have been ice gains. These gains, scientists from the study say, are more than the losses in the rest of the region.
It's not the slow gain or loss, it's the ice sheet collapse that is worrisome.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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There is always something worrisome and some of it will happen. The main question remains: is all this anthropogenic or not. So far I am far from convinced that it is, and in the view of the politics of this "science" I am rather convinced that it is not.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Part of the post by one Michael Harris from the Skeptiko Forum. Something you don't hear about in the news and popular media. He quotes scientists (real ones) who disagree with the mainstream "science" - deniers, if you will.
From John Fyfe, climate modeller at the Canadian Centre for Climate Modelling and Analysis in Victoria, British Columbia:

“There is this mismatch between what the climate models are producing and what the observations are showing...We can’t ignore it.”

Susan Solomon, climatologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge:

"Fyfe’s framework helps to put twenty-first-century trends into perspective, and clearly indicates that the rate of warming slowed down at a time when greenhouse-gas emissions were rising dramatically."

Judith Curry, Climatologist and former chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology:

"Anthropogenic global warming is a proposed theory whose basic mechanism is well understood, but whose magnitude is highly uncertain. The growing evidence that climate models are too sensitive to CO2 has implications for the attribution of late- twentieth-century warming and projections of 21st-century climate. If the recent warming hiatus is caused by natural variability, then this raises the question as to what extent the warming between 1975 and 2000 can also be explained by natural climate variability."

Robert M. Carter, Emeritus Fellow and Science Policy Advisor at the Institute of Public Affairs; chief science advisor for the International Climate Science Coalition; and former Professor and Head of the School of Earth Sciences at James Cook University:

“Climate has always changed and it always will – there is nothing unusual about the modern magnitudes or rates of change of temperature, of ice volume, of sea level or of extreme weather events.”

Dr.John Christy, climate scientists at University of Alabama in Huntsville:

“I detest words like ‘contrarian’ and ‘denier. I’m a data-driven climate scientist. Every time I hear that phrase, ‘The science is settled,’ I say I can easily demonstrate that that is false, because this is the climate — right here. The science is not settled....Someone has just done a terrific job at marketing an [unproven] idea."

Patrick J. Michaels, climatologist and senior fellow in environmental studies at the Cato Institute:

"A problem that deserves much further investigation is how climate science could continue in its remarkable denial that the aggressive global warming paradigm has been shattered, with now 37 consecutive years of documented, systematic model failure."

Carl Mears, the senior research scientist at Remote Sensing Systems, a California firm that analyzes satellite climate readings:

“Almost anyone would say the temperature rise seen over the last 35 years is less than the latest round of models suggests should have happened."

PROFESSOR WALLACE SMITH BROECKER, PHD who in 1975 COINED THE PHRASE "GLOBAL WARMING"(!), Newberry Professor in Columbia University’s Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences and a scientist at the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory. Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, the National Academy of Sciences, the American Geophysical Union, and the European Geophysical Union. Foreign Member of the Royal Society:

“A recent, widely cited reconstruction leaves the impression that the 20th century warming was unique during the last millennium. It shows no hint of the Medieval Warm Period …suggesting that this warm event was regional rather than global. It also remains unclear why just at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution and before the emission of substantial amounts of anthropogenic greenhouse gases, Earth’s temperature began to rise steeply. Was it a coincidence? I do not think so. Rather, I suspect that the post-1860 natural warming was the most recent in a series of similar warmings spaced at roughly 1,500-year intervals.."

DR JARL AHLBECK, PHD Lecturer in Environmental Technology at Abo Akademi. Author of more than 200 papers published in scientific journals, and holder of four patents. Former member of the Finnish Parliament’s energy expert commission. Expert in water treatment and creator of clean-water supply systems for poor people in China, India and Bangladesh. Expert on the CO2 cycle and the benefits of CO2 for food production and economic growth. Former member of Greenpeace:

“the way it was done may simply be bad science due to the fact that the climate models do not reliably model the real climate. Greenhouse religion is a funny thing. There are so much feelings and aggressions in it. Just as in classical religions.”

PROFESSOR TONY BROWN, PHD Professor of Physical Geography, GeoData Research Director and Group Leader at the University of Southampton’s Palaeoenviron-mental Laboratory. Former General Secretary of the International Union for Quaternary Research’s Global Palaeohydrology Sub-commission. Fellow of the Geological Society, and of the Society of Antiquaries. Co-founder and editor of The Journal of Wetland Archaeology, and author of peer-reviewed papers published by The Journal of Quaternary Science, The Holocene and other journals:

”The sharp uptick in temperatures from the start of the 20th century is a likely artifact of computer modeling through over complex statistical interpretation of inadequate proxies. Modern warming needs to be put into its historic context with the patterns of considerable natural climatic variability that can be observed from the past. The available information seems to demonstrate that there is a long established warming trend dating back some 350 years to 1660…) When viewed from a 1538 perspective the warming trend becomes imperceptible. That period seems to have been around as warm as today and there are others that also seem to exhibit notable warmth to levels not dissimilar to today’s.”

Lennart Bengtsson, former Director of Research at ECMWF and Director of the Max Planck Insitute for Meteorology:

"The science isn’t settled...More CO2 in the atmosphere leads undoubtedly to a warming of the earth surface. However, the extent and speed of this warming are still uncertain, because we cannot yet separate well enough the greenhouse effect from other climate influences. Although the radiative forcing by greenhouse gases (including methane, nitrogen oxides and fluorocarbons) has increased by 2.5 watts per square meter since the mid-19th century, observations show only a moderate warming of 0.8 degrees Celsius. Thus, the warming is significantly smaller than predicted by most climate models. In addition, the warming in the last century was not uniform. Phases of manifest warming were followed by periods with no warming at all or even cooling."

PROFESSOR IVAR GIAEVER, PHD Winner of the 1973 Nobel Prize in Physics, Professor-at-large at the University of Oslo, and Professor Emeritus at the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. Recipient of the Oliver E Buckley Condensed Matter Prize from the American Physical Society and the Zworykin Award from the National Academy of Engineering. Member of the Norwegian Academy of Science and Letters:

"Global warming has become a new religion - because you can’t discuss it, and that’s not right… Pseudoscience is a very strange thing, because in pseudoscience you begin with a hypothesis which is very appealing to you, and then you only look for things which confirm the hypothesis. You don’t look for other things. And so the question then… is global warming a pseudoscience..? The American Physical Society discussed the mass of the proton: The mass of the proton is not incontrovertible… But the global warming is. See, that’s a religion. That’s a religious statement, like the Catholic Church says the earth is not round, and the American Physical Society says that the global warming occurs. I mean, that’s a terrible thing."
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Sangoma wrote:There is always something worrisome and some of it will happen. The main question remains: is all this anthropogenic or not. So far I am far from convinced that it is, and in the view of the politics of this "science" I am rather convinced that it is not.
It just seems unlikely that we could burn all the hydrocarbons that we have (and that we are going to), put other various gases into the atmosphere, and change the surface of the Earth as we have, and not have a noticeable effect that stands out above the normal trends.

But really, I'll be dead before any of this stuff hits us hard, and of that reason I don't worry so much. My kids and their kids will have to deal with it, but I have a certain amount of faith in their intelligence, and in our technology growth and coming up with solutions like new energy sources and what-not.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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nafod wrote:
Sangoma wrote:There is always something worrisome and some of it will happen. The main question remains: is all this anthropogenic or not. So far I am far from convinced that it is, and in the view of the politics of this "science" I am rather convinced that it is not.
It just seems unlikely that we could burn all the hydrocarbons that we have (and that we are going to), put other various gases into the atmosphere, and change the surface of the Earth as we have, and not have a noticeable effect that stands out above the normal trends.
Very scientific analysis, comrade!
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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The mass coral bleaching event smashing the Great Barrier Reef has severely affected more than half its length and caused patches of bleaching in most areas, according to scientists conducting an extensive aerial survey of the damage.
. . .
Climate change and a strong El Niño have caused hundreds of kilometres of the reef to bleach, as the higher water temperatures stress the coral, and they expel their symbiotic algae. If the bleaching is bad enough, or the temperatures remain high for long enough, the corals die, putting the future of reefs at risk.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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The position of Earth’s axis has dramatically shifted, likely because of melting ice sheets (fueled by climate change) and natural changes in water storage on land, according to a new study in the journal Science Advances.. . .

Scientists have long known that Earth tends to wobble as it spins, causing its poles to drift slightly. However, a dramatic shift occurred around the year 2000, when the North Pole turned east. . . .

The researchers wrote in their study that the Earth’s spin axis has been shifting 75-degrees eastward from its normal long-term drift direction since the early 2000s. That shift, they found, is being driven not only by melting ice sheets, but also a loss of water mass in Eurasia due to the depletion of aquifers and drought, according to a NASA release.

“This is the first time we have solid evidence that changes in land water distribution on a global scale also shift which direction the axis moves to,” Adhikari, lead author of the study, told New Scientist.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Abstract
The consensus that humans are causing recent global warming is shared by 90%?100% of publishing climate scientists according to six independent studies by co-authors of this paper. Those results are consistent with the 97% consensus reported by Cook et al (Environ. Res. Lett. 8 024024) based on 11 944 abstracts of research papers, of which 4014 took a position on the cause of recent global warming. A survey of authors of those papers (N?=?2412 papers) also supported a 97% consensus. Tol (2016 Environ. Res. Lett. 11 048001) comes to a different conclusion using results from surveys of non-experts such as economic geologists and a self-selected group of those who reject the consensus. We demonstrate that this outcome is not unexpected because the level of consensus correlates with expertise in climate science. At one point, Tol also reduces the apparent consensus by assuming that abstracts that do not explicitly state the cause of global warming ('no position') represent non-endorsement, an approach that if applied elsewhere would reject consensus on well-established theories such as plate tectonics. We examine the available studies and conclude that the finding of 97% consensus in published climate research is robust and consistent with other surveys of climate scientists and peer-reviewed studies.

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.10 ... 1/4/048002
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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“There is this mismatch between what the climate models are producing and what the observations are showing...We can’t ignore it.”
Susan Solomon, climatologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge
This statement nicely encapsulates the problem. The modeling isn't ab initio, simplifying assumptions go into the model-the nonlinear fluid dynamic partial differential equations aren't being solved overall of 3-space and time in these calculations. Any valid mathematical model must a) show agreement with known present and past data and b) have predictive ability. If a) isn't met any attempt at b) is meaningless. If a) is met, it does not immediately imply that any predictions will be accurate. Airflow over a wing is also a nonlinear fluid dynamic problem that is extensively modeled, yet only a true fool would climb into an air frame designed on modeling alone without any wind tunnel validation of the model.

It may also be true that a dynamic model shows short term agreement with data but then diverges. The time evolution of a dynamic system may move outside its domain of validity, even of the solution is mathematically convergent. Classic examples of this are what happened with the modeling of the financial markets circa 2008 or with the predictions made of nuclear explosions when the moratorium on testing was eventually lifted and real testing began again. Nonlinear systems are notorious for such behavior even if you could manage to convince yourself that you very accurately accounted for all variables.

To nafod's point, a zeroth order evaluation would suggest that *qualitatively* one reasonably expects that man-made pollutants have a deleterious effect on the climate, but it's the quantitative part that is suspect-how bad, how quickly, and what are the relative contributions of the signal (man-made effects) and the noise (all other effects influencing the climate). The hardest part of that is understanding the cross terms; how does each effect the other. Simple in a linear system by definition, not so nonlinear systems.

Further exacerbating the problem to my mind is that I have no idea what exactly a climate scientist is. Checking the websites of some universities it's not clear what you have to study and master to be a climate scientist. To be sure, the modeling portion of it is more applied mathematics, computer science and physics, than cloud formations and rain patterns. Like any scientific discipline, only a rather small subset of the field are people who have the mathematical wherewithal to do the modeling and, more importantly, understand it and know its limitations.

While agreement is nice, my favorite whipping boys, social scientists, agree on all sorts of stuff, even when proven hopelessly wrong. I'm loath to lump climate scientists into this category as there is some very good science here, and it's damn tough to do reductionist experiments and data collection in the actual environment with all the obfuscating influences. Clearly there are a few hucksters that undermine the whole enterprise and muddy the waters of what's known, what's suspected, and what's still out to the jury. The upshot is that those who make bold assertions based on a modeled prediction that proves to be wrong but then engage in legal action to defend themselves need to embrace the scientific method. Go back and understand what went wrong, refine your model, and iterate until it's right. Failing to do so leads to threads like this one where the arguments don't converge, to include people who fail to make the important distinction between weather and climate.

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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Abstract
The consensus that humans are causing recent global warming is shared by 90%?100% of publishing climate scientists according to six independent studies by co-authors of this paper. Those results are consistent with the 97% consensus reported by Cook et al (Environ. Res. Lett. 8 024024) based on 11 944 abstracts of research papers, of which 4014 took a position on the cause of recent global warming. A survey of authors of those papers (N?=?2412 papers) also supported a 97% consensus. Tol (2016 Environ. Res. Lett. 11 048001) comes to a different conclusion using results from surveys of non-experts such as economic geologists and a self-selected group of those who reject the consensus. We demonstrate that this outcome is not unexpected because the level of consensus correlates with expertise in climate science. At one point, Tol also reduces the apparent consensus by assuming that abstracts that do not explicitly state the cause of global warming ('no position') represent non-endorsement, an approach that if applied elsewhere would reject consensus on well-established theories such as plate tectonics. We examine the available studies and conclude that the finding of 97% consensus in published climate research is robust and consistent with other surveys of climate scientists and peer-reviewed studies.

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.10 ... 1/4/048002
I wonder if there's a correlation between which position on climate change is likely to get research funding and tenure.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

The data says what it says.

If there is data out there suggesting research and tenure positions are being withheld you should find it for us. It's a commonly made point, that I've never heard quantitatively or qualitatively described.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Abstract
The consensus that humans are causing recent global warming is shared by 90%?100% of publishing climate scientists according to six independent studies by co-authors of this paper. Those results are consistent with the 97% consensus reported by Cook et al (Environ. Res. Lett. 8 024024) based on 11 944 abstracts of research papers, of which 4014 took a position on the cause of recent global warming. A survey of authors of those papers (N?=?2412 papers) also supported a 97% consensus. Tol (2016 Environ. Res. Lett. 11 048001) comes to a different conclusion using results from surveys of non-experts such as economic geologists and a self-selected group of those who reject the consensus. We demonstrate that this outcome is not unexpected because the level of consensus correlates with expertise in climate science. At one point, Tol also reduces the apparent consensus by assuming that abstracts that do not explicitly state the cause of global warming ('no position') represent non-endorsement, an approach that if applied elsewhere would reject consensus on well-established theories such as plate tectonics. We examine the available studies and conclude that the finding of 97% consensus in published climate research is robust and consistent with other surveys of climate scientists and peer-reviewed studies.

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.10 ... 1/4/048002
There is a 97% among cats that you can entrust them with looking after baby mice. That's how consensus correlates with expertise.

In Galileo's times the consensus was that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Not so long ago football coaches were united in the opinion that lifting weights slows players down. Couple of decades ago the consensus was that there is no bacteria in the stomach. Science is about evidence, not agreement between involved scientists. You need to resort to consensus only when there is no solid evidence. Seems to be the case in weather divination.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Blaidd Drwg wrote:The data says what it says.

If there is data out there suggesting research and tenure positions are being withheld you should find it for us. It's a commonly made point, that I've never heard quantitatively or qualitatively described.
As per above, the data is circular. Try to get a research grant or a university position by stating that you don't agree with the current consensus.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

Sangoma wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:The data says what it says.

If there is data out there suggesting research and tenure positions are being withheld you should find it for us. It's a commonly made point, that I've never heard quantitatively or qualitatively described.
As per above, the data is circular. Try to get a research grant or a university position by stating that you don't agree with the current consensus.
Enjoy your grassy knoll.

What DATA do you have that this is the case? It certainly COULD be the case...but what tacit knowledge, third hand knowledge investigative journalism or credible papers can you point to that this is the case?

That is a vast preponderance of interests for whom this conspiracy would be useful to out...are you telling me Exxon or Shell can't dredge up some legit journalism on the subject to cast legitimate doubt?

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying given all that we know about conspiracies, this one is pretty damn hard to cover up.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill


Blaidd Drwg
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Re: hot enough for ya?

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill

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