primary school shooting

[baffled]

1) Is our society sicker than others? I think so. A lot of reasons, but when Scarface is a cult hit in your society, especially among poor, minority youths, you've got some 'splaining to do.

The thing is, these mass killings rarely occur at the hands of poor, minority youths. They're almost always carried out by well-off white kids. Maybe raising your kid in a bubble and segregating them from any kind of hardship and suffering isn't the best way to instill human values and respect for fellow human beings in them. A kid who gets the shit beaten out of him when he's bad and has to go hungry at times because he's poor knows a lot more about love and compassion than some retard who lives in fairy tale land where mommy and daddy throw gifts at him and let Mr. Playstation babysit so that they can chase the American dream and compete with the Jones'.

Good point. I was rattling off some of the first things that came to mind in the moment.

I was actually talking to my mom yesterday about pretty much everything in your post. People from my generation (~30 and under) have largely grown up, especially kids from white suburbia, being told they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.

When they find out that they're average, at best, maybe it's a psyche crusher.

[Wild Bill]

Terrible... can't stop thinking about those kids.

[Jay]

Words aren't enough for the sadness, rage and disgust at this one... I can't, for the life of me, imagine taking a little child's life, and in the cold-blooded way this was done.

Those kids will be scarred for a long time, maybe for life, and for the families that lost children from this, I can't even imagine....

[milosz]

Mass shootings dropped to zero. Not endorsing the same laws here, just disagreeing that nothing can be done. If the problem was just shot kids, 391 Chicago Public School kids were shot last year. It's the mass killings that shock people.

Well, yes, that's the point. Eliminating mass killings, in the overall picture, doesn't matter. That's a brutal, cold stance and I understand why politicians can't go there - but it's also pretty true.
We can't base national policy on freak occurrences - whether that's terrorism or mass murder.

Local regs are not particularly effective.

Indeed. Because there are 200 million guns in the US that are all but undocumented.
All the 'gun control' in the world short of an impossible confiscation scheme is irrelevant. California's AWB ban and waiting periods and permits make it no safer than other places.

False, owning a gun ups your chance of suicide.

True. Check the Aussie stats. Gun suicides narrowed but other forms simply picked up the slack.

This is exactly right. Unless you are going to do something like ban and confiscate everything but low-cap bolt guns, pump shotguns, and revolvers, nothing else is going to make a difference. It would be better if people discussed that than pass another PITA law that won't affect anything.

Even at that - Aurora's primary weapon was a 12-gauge, IIRC. Revolvers and speedloaders can be rather quick.
As Kyle Defoor pointed out on his blog today, what people did in the past was carry multiple weapons - three revolvers at a time.

[Protobuilder]

Anyone who immediately says "it's not X" has an agenda.

Yes. The thing is that there are enough agendas to prevent any serious dialogue, virtually guaranteeing this happens again.

[Protobuilder]

Saying that Norway or Sweden or Australia or China have violence doesn't change the numbers that say the US is the unquestioned leader in firearm deaths. Of course, these numbers were before the events of the last weekend. And the shootings in the Batman premier. And the shootings in Oikos. And the shooting of a US Representative in the parking lot of a supermarket. And the Fort Hood shooting. And NIU. And Virginia Tech. And around two dozen more.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20571454

The US homicide rates were 6.9 times higher than rates in the other high-income countries, driven by firearm homicide rates that were 19.5 times higher. The US firearm suicide rates were 5.8 times higher than in the other countries, though overall suicide rates were 30% lower. The US unintentional firearm deaths were 5.2 times higher than in the other countries. Among these 23 countries, 80% of all firearm deaths occurred in the United States, 86% of women killed by firearms were US women, and 87% of all children aged 0 to 14 killed by firearms were US children.

[Protobuilder]

Over the same time frame as Australia's big ban, their homicide rate declined at the exact same rate as the US homicide rate.

Mass shootings dropped to zero. Not endorsing the same laws here, just disagreeing that nothing can be done. If the problem was just shot kids, 391 Chicago Public School kids were shot last year. It's the mass killings that shock people.

Mass shootings did NOT stop in Australia.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hi ... g_2011.pdf

For Australia, the NFA seems to have been incredibly successful in terms of lives saved. While 13 gun
massacres (the killing of 4 or more people at one time) occurred in Australia in the 18 years before the
NFA, resulting in more than one hundred deaths, in the 14 following years (and up to the present),
there were no gun massacres.

The report also discusses opposing evidence.

[milosz]

Saying that Norway or Sweden or Australia or China have violence doesn't change the numbers that say the US is the unquestioned leader in firearm deaths. Of course, these numbers were before the events of the last weekend. And the shootings in the Batman premier. And the shootings in Oikos. And the shooting of a US Representative in the parking lot of a supermarket. And the Fort Hood shooting. And NIU. And Virginia Tech. And around two dozen more.

"leader in firearm deaths" is a meaningless statistic without context.
How many of those deaths are suicides? Eliminate them from consideration.
Now, what's the poverty situation? Poverty is the strongest indicator of violent crime.
What are the trends in violent crime and homicide? Australia and the US declined at the exact same rate in a time frame centered around the Aussie ban.

[milosz]

Saying that Norway or Sweden or Australia or China have violence doesn't change the numbers that say the US is the unquestioned leader in firearm deaths. Of course, these numbers were before the events of the last weekend. And the shootings in the Batman premier. And the shootings in Oikos. And the shooting of a US Representative in the parking lot of a supermarket. And the Fort Hood shooting. And NIU. And Virginia Tech. And around two dozen more.

"leader in firearm deaths" is a meaningless statistic without context.
How many of those deaths are suicides? Eliminate them from consideration.
Now, what's the poverty situation? Poverty is the strongest indicator of violent crime.
What are the trends in violent crime and homicide? Australia and the US declined at the exact same rate in a time frame centered around the Aussie ban.

[Turdacious]

edit:

forget it. the issue is too raw yet. everyone is just grinding metal if they think it's ripe for discussion.

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

Because this thread has lost track of priorities.

[Protobuilder]

Saying that Norway or Sweden or Australia or China have violence doesn't change the numbers that say the US is the unquestioned leader in firearm deaths. Of course, these numbers were before the events of the last weekend. And the shootings in the Batman premier. And the shootings in Oikos. And the shooting of a US Representative in the parking lot of a supermarket. And the Fort Hood shooting. And NIU. And Virginia Tech. And around two dozen more.

"leader in firearm deaths" is a meaningless statistic without context.
How many of those deaths are suicides? Eliminate them from consideration.
Now, what's the poverty situation? Poverty is the strongest indicator of violent crime.
What are the trends in violent crime and homicide? Australia and the US declined at the exact same rate in a time frame centered around the Aussie ban.

The study cited separated homicides and suicides, via guns and by other means. The US has 7 times the murder rate but 20 times the murder rate by guns. The suicide rate in the US is actually substantially lower than the other countries looked at though firearm suicide rates are 43 times higher. Thus, the US is violent but uses guns to commit this violence at a far higher rate. The culture would have the same tendencies if guns were not so prevalent but would these fucks who want to go out on the front page of every publication in the world be as efficient if they had a kitchen knife or a bowling pin?

The Harvard Bulletin reported on mass killings and reported that the Australia buyback, which keeps getting translated as "ban" resulted in a drop from "13 gun massacres ...in the 18 years before the NFA, resulting in more than one hundred deaths" to zero "in the 14 following years (and up to the present)". I may be incorrect but believe that the US has had more than zero massacres in the past 14 years and that at least one of the murderers were not poverty stricken.

[Turdacious]

My daughter counted all the kids in her classroom and said she didnt want anything to happen to her friends.

Bump-- because the wisdom of children is being ignored.

[Schlegel]

Great, now the fucking Westboro baptists are gonna go to Sandy Hook and be all super-douchy.

[Protobuilder]

Great, now the fucking Westboro baptists are gonna go to Sandy Hook and be all super-douchy.

Here's the personal details of all the members.

http://www.anonpaste.me/anonpaste2/inde ... BqWpaGcMI=

[DrDonkeyLove]

I'm curious to know what you Americans think the reason is for the USA being the king of gun deaths. Obviously guns are just pieces of metal so banning them or not is irrelevant.

Is your society sicker than others? I really don't know what to think.

One thing I will say is, if you take this forum for example, you lot are always talking about guns. The rest of us never do unless something like this event crops up.

I can't for the life of me grasp why a middle aged, female elementary school teacher would want/need three guns. One maybe for self protection, but three?

It's definitely sick in some regards. We have a huge violent uneducated underclass. We also have some crazy people with shitty mental health care. And, we're a very large country and guns are accessible.

Every country has a mythology. Ours is rooted in independence, resistance to government oppression, and self sacrifice. The Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights are our touchstones. It's been reinforced by our experiences in WW1, WW2, the multiple wars against communism, and the WOT. Our symbols are the Minutemen and the armed pioneers who won the west.

Many of us believe an unarmed populace is a populace ripe for slavery (see BatBoy's comments). Tyrants throughout history disarm people and we hate tyrants. Yet, there are an increasing number of people in this country who want to be like Europe with your taxes, regulations, and gov't controls of the people. Included in that group are people who want us totally disarmed.

To many Americans, guns are America as much as the flag, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights because they assure the rights ascribed therein. Many people consider that ridiculous bullshit but tens of millions don't and will passionately raise all kinds of hell to protect those rights as they understand them. Guns and abortion are two things that dig so deeply into our psyches that it's almost impossible to have rational conversations about them because the lines are clear and bold before the conversation even begins.

Hence, we get into gun control arguments before we've buried a single one of those poor little angels. That may be one of the greater societal sicknesses on display right now.

[Gene]

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hi ... g_2011.pdf

For Australia, the NFA seems to have been incredibly successful in terms of lives saved. While 13 gun
massacres (the killing of 4 or more people at one time) occurred in Australia in the 18 years before the
NFA, resulting in more than one hundred deaths, in the 14 following years (and up to the present),
there were no gun massacres.

The report also discusses opposing evidence.

The Monash shootings occured in 2002, six years after the ban/confiscation. The Austrialian Parliament considered the Monash mass murder sufficient cause to ban certain kinds of handgun calibers and barrel lengths. The term "No gun massacres" must mean something different the Authors of this study than it does to the Australian parliament.

This issue of Bulletins reviews the evidence on the effect of the NFA on firearm deaths. There have not
been any studies examining the effect of the buyback on crime other than homicide. Some scientists
believed that the buyback might reduce firearm crime, but most saw no reason to expect that it would
significantly affect non-firearm crime.

They neglected "non-firearm crime"? If the number of strong arm robberies and knife attacks increases that's cold comfort for those who are spared the special horror of "gun violence" isn't it? The report states that Austrialians were NOT given to carrying handguns. Probably nothing much did change here.

For Australia, a difficulty with determining the effect of the law was that gun deaths were falling in the
early 1990s. No study has explained why gun deaths were falling, or why they might be expected to
continue to fall. Yet most studies generally assumed that they would have continued to drop without
the NFA. Many studies still found strong evidence for a beneficial effect of the law.

Nobody formally understands why gun deaths and suicides were falling but are happy to credit the Australian program?


There have been studies to show the contrary, that the ban did not change suicide or violent crime. The "Buyback" is a euphemism - there were criminal penalties for possession of "Center Fire Semiautomatic rifles" in Australia along with the 'buyback" program.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1540791

http://www.ssaa.org.au/research/2006/20 ... ement.html

http://www.biomedexperts.com/Abstract.b ... his_method

[Gav]

I'm curious to know what you Americans think the reason is for the USA being the king of gun deaths. Obviously guns are just pieces of metal so banning them or not is irrelevant.

Is your society sicker than others? I really don't know what to think.

One thing I will say is, if you take this forum for example, you lot are always talking about guns. The rest of us never do unless something like this event crops up.

I can't for the life of me grasp why a middle aged, female elementary school teacher would want/need three guns. One maybe for self protection, but three?

It's definitely sick in some regards. We have a huge violent uneducated underclass. We also have some crazy people with shitty mental health care. And, we're a very large country and guns are accessible.

Every country has a mythology. Ours is rooted in independence, resistance to government oppression, and self sacrifice. The Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights are our touchstones. It's been reinforced by our experiences in WW1, WW2, the multiple wars against communism, and the WOT. Our symbols are the Minutemen and the armed pioneers who won the west.

Many of us believe an unarmed populace is a populace ripe for slavery (see BatBoy's comments). Tyrants throughout history disarm people and we hate tyrants. Yet, there are an increasing number of people in this country who want to be like Europe with your taxes, regulations, and gov't controls of the people. Included in that group are people who want us totally disarmed.

To many Americans, guns are America as much as the flag, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights because they assure the rights ascribed therein. Many people consider that ridiculous bullshit but tens of millions don't and will passionately raise all kinds of hell to protect those rights as they understand them. Guns and abortion are two things that dig so deeply into our psyches that it's almost impossible to have rational conversations about them because the lines are clear and bold before the conversation even begins.

Hence, we get into gun control arguments before we've buried a single one of those poor little angels. That may be one of the greater societal sicknesses on display right now.

Doc, good post.

[Batboy2/75]

Well, I don't know who's to blame. But someone is.

Sounds like Momma is a bit of a whack job with her assault rifle collection. Sorry, but I don't see the need to own a weapon that is really only good for killing a whole lot of things at once unless you intend on killing a whole lot of things at once. And apparently took her emotionally disturbed/mentally ill son to the shooting range. Maybe she felt it would empower him. Mommas often think there must be some magic bandaid to make their babies all better, but guns usually aren't the bandaid.

So, you have a perfect storm of momma with bad judgement, an affinity for instruments of death, and a child who was most likely a complete sociopath. Could anyone else have known what was going on there? Probably not. Sounds like big brother wasn't involved, who knows about dad. And since the divorce, she probably wasn't sharing with him either. Who knows, maybe the assault rifles were intended for daddy.

Can we police whackjob secretive parents doing stupid shit at home? I don't think so. If we could, there would be a lot less child rape, child abuse, and child murder in general. I don't have an answer other than there is evil in the world and when given a gift-wrapped opportunity to express it, well, its going to happen. Maybe if momma only had knives she would have been sliced to ribbons and that would have been the end of it. I don't know, but I think its a lot easier to shoot a gun than kill someone with a knife. Maybe it would be less likely.

Who knows. I don't for sure.

1) there is only one main reason to own a semi auto rifle; to kill tyrants and to protect you and yours. The mark of a free man or woman is the possession of arms. This is the distinction between a slave and the free. You either have the means to resist or you don't. If you don't! you are a slave. The fact my AK47s, AR15s, my mini 14, my SKS rifles, & my Browning BAR 3006 scare the shit out of all the right people, tells me I have the right arms.

2) an ar15 is not an Assualt rifle. if it was an assault rifle it would be select ire, i.e. automatic fire versus semi auto. Many people love using this term because it's scary; it sounds so very military and is used as a way to justify banning civilian ownership. I can name three civilian hunting rifles that other than appearance operate the exact same way as the AR 15 this evil fucks mom owned. Since we are on the subject, this fucktard could have easily killed the same amount of people with a Remington 870 shotgun or revolvers.

3) you hit the nail on the head with moms questionable judgement taking her autistic teen son shooting. I'm really surprised this facet of the story hasn't been decussed more. The autism lobby had better get ahead of the curve on this. This kids condition contributed to the shooting. I base this on working with autistic children and my best friends son whomis a high fuctioning autistic kid. No fucking way should autistic people be let near a gun. Some news outfit is going to make the connection and then the scare mongering news stories about autistic murders stalking the streets of the USA will fill the airwaves.

Here is a constructive plan for dealing with these Evil killing Fucks

If one or two teachers had a gun on them, they just may have saved some people. But God no, guns are evil! Better to declare schools "Gun Free" zones, trust in locked doors and hope he cops get there in time.

Gun Free Zones= death trap.

You want to protect children at schools? Arm he staff and teachers.

[DARTH]

You could kill nearly as man small kids in the same enviroment with a hammer and a machette and you would not have the report of .223 alerting people school wide that something bad was happening. You walk in the door, go right for the teacher and then just start swinging for heads and necks. The screaming would bring more unarmed teachers, the majority on this grade level being female and then on to more kids.

Remember a fucker with a knife wounded 22 kids in China. Give him a hammer or teach the fucker how to use a knife and there would be more dead. In the same country another asshole, former Dr. killed 8 kids with a knife at a school.

You can go to Home Depot and get some steel plumbing pipe and end caps a bunch of nails and make pipe bombs with short fuses.

You don;t even have to go into the school now.

You can toss them through the windows into the class rooms. The way many schools are laid out you can toss 1 into 3 rooms in seconds. Untill the first one went off only those in that classroom would have any idea of waht is going on.

How many people would instinctivly hit the deck with their head facing away and their feet, legs together facing the bomb when they herd the glass smash and the pipe hit the floor? You would cath the first and maybe even second room all seated or standing for sure.

Or you could stand back and lob them into all the windows facing you with in range.

Evil finds a way. Sad but true. That's fucking life so kill yourself if you can't handle it. (but use a pill or a traintrack.)

[syaigh]

Well, I don't know who's to blame. But someone is.

Sounds like Momma is a bit of a whack job with her assault rifle collection. Sorry, but I don't see the need to own a weapon that is really only good for killing a whole lot of things at once unless you intend on killing a whole lot of things at once. And apparently took her emotionally disturbed/mentally ill son to the shooting range. Maybe she felt it would empower him. Mommas often think there must be some magic bandaid to make their babies all better, but guns usually aren't the bandaid.

So, you have a perfect storm of momma with bad judgement, an affinity for instruments of death, and a child who was most likely a complete sociopath. Could anyone else have known what was going on there? Probably not. Sounds like big brother wasn't involved, who knows about dad. And since the divorce, she probably wasn't sharing with him either. Who knows, maybe the assault rifles were intended for daddy.

Can we police whackjob secretive parents doing stupid shit at home? I don't think so. If we could, there would be a lot less child rape, child abuse, and child murder in general. I don't have an answer other than there is evil in the world and when given a gift-wrapped opportunity to express it, well, its going to happen. Maybe if momma only had knives she would have been sliced to ribbons and that would have been the end of it. I don't know, but I think its a lot easier to shoot a gun than kill someone with a knife. Maybe it would be less likely.

Who knows. I don't for sure.

1) there is only one main reason to own a semi auto rifle; to kill tyrants and to protect you and yours. The mark of a free man or woman is the possession of arms. This is the distinction between a slave and the free. You either have the means to resist or you don't. If you don't! you are a slave. The fact my AK47s, AR15s, my mini 14, my SKS rifles, & my Browning BAR 3006 scare the shit out of all the right people, tells me I have the right arms.

2) an ar15 is not an Assualt rifle. if it was an assault rifle it would be select ire, i.e. automatic fire versus semi auto. Many people love using this term because it's scary; it sounds so very military and is used as a way to justify banning civilian ownership. I can name three civilian hunting rifles that other than appearance operate the exact same way as the AR 15 this evil fucks mom owned. Since we are on the subject, this fucktard could have easily killed the same amount of people with a Remington 870 shotgun or revolvers.

3) you hit the nail on the head with moms questionable judgement taking her autistic teen son shooting. I'm really surprised this facet of the story hasn't been decussed more. The autism lobby had better get ahead of the curve on this. This kids condition contributed to the shooting. I base this on working with autistic children and my best friends son whomis a high fuctioning autistic kid. No fucking way should autistic people be let near a gun. Some news outfit is going to make the connection and then the scare mongering news stories about autistic murders stalking the streets of the USA will fill the airwaves.

Here is a constructive plan for dealing with these Evil killing Fucks

If one or two teachers had a gun on them, they just may have saved some people. But God no, guns are evil! Better to declare schools "Gun Free" zones, trust in locked doors and hope he cops get there in time.

Gun Free Zones= death trap.

You want to protect children at schools? Arm he staff and teachers.

Well, I obviously know nothing about guns not used for fair hunting, but it was a lot of firepower. And quite frankly, you may be a reasonable person, but I don't like that there are a lot of unreasonable people with those same weapons.

My grandfather was a Marine and a Game Warden. He had a lot of guns, knew a lot about guns, used them regularly. I never would have had a problem with him having whatever guns he wanted. I guess I feel that if you are going to have that kind of firepower, it comes with an undertanding of the responsibility and mastery it takes to use and own them. I have serious doubts that this woman had either of those. That's my opinion, nothing more, but she clearly failed in the judgement department.

Arm the teachers? I don't think so. Have a TRAINED officer at the school? Yeah, that's an idea. But the hundreds of hours it would take to train the teachers and staff to respond safely with a gun in an emergency just isn't worth it. They aren't paid enough as it is. And its not what they are trained to do.

[nafod]

First with the defending against tyrants. The last time Americans used their small arms to defend against tyrants, they also had full-on Armies with equivalent artillery, a Navy, and outside help. You should ask yourself how well that worked out for the Confederate States of America. Your lack of MANPADs, fully automatic heavy weaponry, RPGs, armed air support, 24/7 ISR, etc. fucking etc. means you will be a speed bump when the tyrants in Washington decide to conquer your little neck of the woods. We can on 24 hour notice circle the globe and kick the shit out of entire countries. Your small little county will be a joke, assigned to some unit that didn't cut the mustard for the real stuff. In short, your guns are not what are going to keep you from being tyranted.

Darth, how many of those 22 kids died in the knife attack? When the attacker goes into the corner to start carving up the little ones instead of blocking the door and plinking them from a few feet awat, thus leaving an egress avenue open, how many could run out?

The Bushmaster that was used by the douche in Sandy Hook, used by the DC sniper, and used by the shooter in Colorado, albeit with a hundred run drum mag rather than multiple 30 round mags, is designed for killing people. It is light so you can bring it up quick and keep it up while you're moving. Barrel in line with stock so recoil doesn't cause the barrel to rise and you can double-tap your targets. Big magazine so you don't have to husband your ammo, using multiple shots to ensure the target is hit rather than slow aim. Small rounds again so recoil doesn't slow the targeting. The dude had two handguns, yet the Bushmaster was his go-to kid eliminator. Why? Because the gun was optimized for a functionality that includes scenarios like what occurred in Sandy Hook.

I'm not Joe Ranger Infrantry, but I've shot some thousand rounds with an M-16 to include rapid reaction drills and CQC along with shooting shotguns and hunting rifles. Like any tool, each is optimized for a purpose. The Bushmaster is optimized for Sandy Hook and Colorado Movie Theatre scenarios.

He didn't make a bomb, because you actually have to do work to make them, and it is highly likely they won't work or hopefully they blow up, killing the perp. Figuring out how to make a bomb leaves a trail of purchases, internet searches, stuff bought, time spent with the door locked while you try to assemble it, evidence if you try to test it before using it (he had plenty of practice with the Bushmaster) and mom probably didn't include bomb making with her gun nuttery.

Evil is going to be around. I want to stop making it easy for them.

[Shafpocalypse Now]

Arming teachers is a fucking joke. I see that Israeli teacher pic up all fucking over FB. Israeli teachers were in the fucking military. Kindergarten teachers in the US love little kids, flowers, puppies, kittens, and probably married the first guy the fucked

[Batboy2/75]

Well, I don't know who's to blame. But someone is.

Sounds like Momma is a bit of a whack job with her assault rifle collection. Sorry, but I don't see the need to own a weapon that is really only good for killing a whole lot of things at once unless you intend on killing a whole lot of things at once. And apparently took her emotionally disturbed/mentally ill son to the shooting range. Maybe she felt it would empower him. Mommas often think there must be some magic bandaid to make their babies all better, but guns usually aren't the bandaid.

So, you have a perfect storm of momma with bad judgement, an affinity for instruments of death, and a child who was most likely a complete sociopath. Could anyone else have known what was going on there? Probably not. Sounds like big brother wasn't involved, who knows about dad. And since the divorce, she probably wasn't sharing with him either. Who knows, maybe the assault rifles were intended for daddy.

Can we police whackjob secretive parents doing stupid shit at home? I don't think so. If we could, there would be a lot less child rape, child abuse, and child murder in general. I don't have an answer other than there is evil in the world and when given a gift-wrapped opportunity to express it, well, its going to happen. Maybe if momma only had knives she would have been sliced to ribbons and that would have been the end of it. I don't know, but I think its a lot easier to shoot a gun than kill someone with a knife. Maybe it would be less likely.

Who knows. I don't for sure.

1) there is only one main reason to own a semi auto rifle; to kill tyrants and to protect you and yours. The mark of a free man or woman is the possession of arms. This is the distinction between a slave and the free. You either have the means to resist or you don't. If you don't! you are a slave. The fact my AK47s, AR15s, my mini 14, my SKS rifles, & my Browning BAR 3006 scare the shit out of all the right people, tells me I have the right arms.

2) an ar15 is not an Assualt rifle. if it was an assault rifle it would be select ire, i.e. automatic fire versus semi auto. Many people love using this term because it's scary; it sounds so very military and is used as a way to justify banning civilian ownership. I can name three civilian hunting rifles that other than appearance operate the exact same way as the AR 15 this evil fucks mom owned. Since we are on the subject, this fucktard could have easily killed the same amount of people with a Remington 870 shotgun or revolvers.

3) you hit the nail on the head with moms questionable judgement taking her autistic teen son shooting. I'm really surprised this facet of the story hasn't been decussed more. The autism lobby had better get ahead of the curve on this. This kids condition contributed to the shooting. I base this on working with autistic children and my best friends son whomis a high fuctioning autistic kid. No fucking way should autistic people be let near a gun. Some news outfit is going to make the connection and then the scare mongering news stories about autistic murders stalking the streets of the USA will fill the airwaves.

Here is a constructive plan for dealing with these Evil killing Fucks

If one or two teachers had a gun on them, they just may have saved some people. But God no, guns are evil! Better to declare schools "Gun Free" zones, trust in locked doors and hope he cops get there in time.

Gun Free Zones= death trap.

You want to protect children at schools? Arm he staff and teachers.

Well, I obviously know nothing about guns not used for fair hunting, but it was a lot of firepower. And quite frankly, you may be a reasonable person, but I don't like that there are a lot of unreasonable people with those same weapons.

My grandfather was a Marine and a Game Warden. He had a lot of guns, knew a lot about guns, used them regularly. I never would have had a problem with him having whatever guns he wanted. I guess I feel that if you are going to have that kind of firepower, it comes with an undertanding of the responsibility and mastery it takes to use and own them. I have serious doubts that this woman had either of those. That's my opinion, nothing more, but she clearly failed in the judgement department.

Arm the teachers? I don't think so. Have a TRAINED officer at the school? Yeah, that's an idea. But the hundreds of hours it would take to train the teachers and staff to respond safely with a gun in an emergency just isn't worth it. They aren't paid enough as it is. And its not what they are trained to do.

You have absolutely no idea what it takes to get con led weapons permit, do you? If you didn't you would not have posted what you just did.

So many unreasonable people. Define this for us? Because these events are rare and believe it or not declining. I would like to know about these people. Is just people that disagree with you? Because this whole discussion on who is reasonable is very subjective. Are there any other unalienable rights listed and guaranteed by the US Constitution would you like to limit to "Reasonable" people?

Even then, Germany has all the "reasonable" laws you seem to want. It did nothing to stop a mass murder at a school. Like I stated a couple pages ago, let's dispense with this "reasonable" half measures bullshit fantasy you are I gauging in. They won't do what you want them to do and end with a total ban and gun confiscation. If that is what you want admit it and let's move on.


We'll never know, but I wonder if the heroic teacher that hid her kids in a closet would have wanted a gun when she was standing in front the door and waiting for the evil fuck murder to walk into her room? I wonder if the other teachers who heard the screams of children at the school, wished they had a gun. This isn't about being paid more etc. if you don't have the goddamn common sense to protect at least yourself, you deserve nothing but chains. If you don't have enough of a soul to defend the innocent being slaughtered, you are a coward and definitely deserve the chains of slavery.

[Batboy2/75]

Arming teachers is a fucking joke. I see that Israeli teacher pic up all fucking over FB. Israeli teachers were in the fucking military. Kindergarten teachers in the US love little kids, flowers, puppies, kittens, and probably married the first guy the fucked

Arming and training teacher that want to be armed and trained is no joke. In the absence of teachers will to fill those roles, by all means hire armed guards.

The only joke is believing in Gun free zones, locked doors, and the police are on their way. You may want to live that way, not me.

[Blaidd Drwg]

First with the defending against tyrants. The last time Americans used their small arms to defend against tyrants, they also had full-on Armies with equivalent artillery, a Navy, and outside help. You should ask yourself how well that worked out for the Confederate States of America. Your lack of MANPADs, fully automatic heavy weaponry, RPGs, armed air support, 24/7 ISR, etc. fucking etc. means you will be a speed bump when the tyrants in Washington decide to conquer your little neck of the woods. We can on 24 hour notice circle the globe and kick the shit out of entire countries. Your small little county will be a joke, assigned to some unit that didn't cut the mustard for the real stuff. In short, your guns are not what are going to keep you from being tyranted.

Tell that the to the Afghans.

There's over 100 year of jurisprudence supporting individual ownership of military firearms. Doesn't matter whether that's logical or reasonable, it just is. Any proposition that starts with, We can take you out whenever we want is not an "argument" at all.

If you want anyone even close to the fence, let alone sitting on it, to support some as yet seen series of ideas or measures to address the issue, you're going to need better thinking that what's out there now, magazine bans and "buyback"/confiscation.

It's not your fault Nafod, nor is it Bats, but this discussion is a piece of shit. Until it elevates to problem solving, not patriot act III reflexive ass-hattery (not accusing you of this, thinking more of the 20 or so people I had to axe from Fb) we're stuck with laws and measures (like the current ones) that everyone knows will fail.