What's Wrong With The NCAA

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What's Wrong With The NCAA

Post by baffled »

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketb ... gulf-coast

Florida Gulf Coast, whose oldest alum, according to the article, is only 37 years old, is sweating the cost of their tournament run.
NCAA tournament teams don't normally come out ahead in their travel expenses despite Turner and CBS paying an average of $771 million a year for the television rights.
They'll make a lot of cash from this in the future, but $771 million per year? It's only 65 teams, including the winner of the play in game (still, right?), and that pot of basketball money isn't tapped a little more so teams can be rewarded now?
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

Post by Turdacious »

They may not do so well over the next few years-- major teams won't play them at home (so they won't gain that draw) and good teams won't want to pay them to come lose in their gym anymore. Best hope is to get into a better conference.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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The biggest problem with the NAACP is they don't let white people join.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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Yeah, never mind. They're fucked.

The NCAA is corrupt, and the NAACP is RACIST.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

Post by DrDonkeyLove »

As long as a kid playing can't accept some free shoes, but his coach can make big $$$$ endorsing those same shoes, we know what the NCAA is about.

Instead of occupying Wall Street's 1%ers, maybe a bunch of players or ex-players should occupy Indianapolis' 1%ers.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

Post by Pinky »

Why the fuck do those idiots think the school has to pay for the coaches' families to travel? They're worried about losing money because they've decided they "need" to spend more than they can afford.

The real problem with the NCAA is not that they don't buy plane tickets for the wives of men who are paid six-figures. The problem is that they are a cartel that makes money off of the uncompensated labor of players.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

Post by Shapecharge »

This might change things (but don't get too excited, yet):

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/891 ... on-vs-ncaa

The O'Bannon Decision

Does Ed O'Bannon's lawsuit mean the NCAA might have to change?

By Charles P. Pierce on February 6, 2013PRINTBy and large, the people charged with running our various sports conglomerates have proven through history to be as incapable of taking the long view of their own survival as the average brachiosaurus was. They blunder around, eating whatever comes under their noses, trampling the scenery and hooting loudly into the wind. They never see the meteor coming.

Years before baseball's reserve clause finally fell of its own historical inequities, Bill Veeck told his fellow owners that they should get rid of it themselves, so as to cushion the shock and to manage the aftermath to their own advantage. He was ignored and, when various courts and arbitrators blew up the system, baseball descended into a chaotic labor-management nightmare that (in many ways) has yet to resolve itself. I thought of Veeck last month when a couple of things happened that made it even more plain that the meteor is coming for college sports, and right quickly, too.

First, Mark Emmert, the president of the NCAA, announced new rules for the recruitment of college athletes. One of the new guidelines stipulates that athletes can receive $300 per year beyond their normal expenses to attend non-scholastic events. This is a modified version of the "stipend" that long has been the compromise position between the egregious status quo and a more equitable sharing of revenues between the various universities and the uncompensated labor force that does all the real work. It is also nonsense. Once you let athletes have money simply because they are athletes, no matter how little it is and no matter what you call it, you're into pay-for-play and that's the ballgame. Not even the NCAA, which has a gift for obfuscation that rivals Richard Nixon's on a good day, can argue seriously that paying an athlete $300 is ethical, but that paying him or her $500 or $1,000 — or $10,000, for all that — is not.

The NCAA has found itself and the system over which it presides under increasing public criticism. People outside the community of sports have joined those of us inside it who have been banging our heads against this particular wall for 30 years. Joe Nocera of the New York Times has spent as much time talking about the NCAA in his column as Tom Friedman has spent talking about his conversations with Lebanese cab drivers in his. And historian Taylor Branch took the hide off the organization in a long piece in The Atlantic in 2011. The recent action by Emmert and the NCAA panjandrums looks in that context like simply a delaying action against the inevitable. But the meteor they never saw coming is the one that's gathering steam in a courtroom in San Francisco. If that one hits, and it's more than likely that it will, it will be an extinction-level event for college sports as we know it.

Last week, U.S. District Court Judge Claudia Wilken denied the NCAA's motion in an antitrust lawsuit brought against the association by former UCLA All-American Ed O'Bannon and a number of former college athletes in 2009. At issue is the NCAA's right to profit forever from the names, images, and likenesses of the people who play the games without compensating the players at all. (The suit was kicked off by O'Bannon's anger that his likeness had been used in an NCAA-licensed video game.) The NCAA sought to deny O'Bannon and his fellow plaintiffs — who include both Oscar Robertson and Bill Russell — standing as a class to challenge the NCAA on antitrust grounds. (A class-certification hearing is scheduled for June.) Wilken ruled for the players and allowed the case to proceed. If the court were to eventually decide in favor of the plaintiffs, it would force the NCAA to fork over billions of dollars in television revenues and licensing fees. It could also force the development of a more equitable system in which the people who do the work get a decent share of the profits. All the profits.

This has always been the weakest part of the NCAA's case. It could argue that players should not be paid, based on the spurious notion that they are getting a college degree out of the deal in exchange for having a 40-hour-a-week job that requires them to travel all over the country. (I didn't have one of those jobs until I was 28. If I'd had one in college, I guarantee you it would've taken me a decade to get my degree.) There was a sort of logic there. At the very least, on the surface — and provided you squinted hard enough — you could perceive something of an even swap in the deal. As the TV revenues soared and marketing opportunities boomed, the deal got all out of whack. It was preposterous to claim, as the NCAA does, that, just because Ed O'Bannon played four years at UCLA, the NCAA somehow can profit off of his likeness for the rest of his life. There simply never has been a compelling moral or ethical argument that the NCAA and the university had an inalienable right to every last nickel they could squeeze out of the work done by their student-athletes. In fact, to be eligible to play, athletes have to sign papers waiving their rights to profit from their own names and their own faces. It has always been the crack in the foundation of the NCAA structure because, of all the self-evident absurdities of how college sports are run, this one was the most obviously comical. Nobody can squint hard enough to make this make sense.

Back in the 1990s, it was the Fab Five at Michigan who first started raising holy hell. The university marketed the daylights out of that team and the players never got a piece and, as we all learned later, that was a pretty money-savvy bunch there. At the same time, and at what was perceived to be the other end of the spectrum, Duke was making a lot of money selling jerseys with the number 33 on them, simply because Grant Hill happened to wear that number at the time. The NCAA gets to take your face, slap it on some caricature on a video game, market it worldwide, sell it forever, and you don't get to share in the profits? Selling that in the United States Of I've Got Mine, Jack? Please.

There was a time, and not that long ago, when a soft landing could have been arranged. Just as the question of ancillary profits was always the weakest part of the case for the status quo, a commonsensical deal cut on the basis of those profits also could have been the easiest way out. You get the scholarship, we get your work and the gate revenues derived from it. But, if you play well enough that we can sell your jersey or your picture — or, more controversially, if you play well enough that we rake in the big TV money — you get a good slice of those extra revenues, which we will put into a temporary trust for you after you graduate, and from which you will continue to profit as long as we still use your likeness. (O'Bannon's lawyers made just such a proposal a key part of one of their motions against the NCAA.) Hardly anyone would have complained, even though some adjustments would have to have been worked out as regards the non-revenue sport athletes and the provisions of Title IX. The point is that a deal could have been struck, just as baseball could have diminished the impact of the collapse of the reserve system. But that time has passed.

This is the one they can't stop. There's no negotiating a way out. There are no teenagers to intimidate, no coaches to knuckle, no administrators to cajole, no probation to be levied. The athletes have found a fair and level field on which to contest the NCAA's control over their lives, and the stakes are as high as they can be. And the public has started to turn around on the issue, too. For the NCAA to survive in its current form, it has to win this lawsuit or get the lawsuit dismissed. There's no third alternative. The NCAA can't settle and then go back to the status quo ante. It can't pay off O'Bannon and Russell and Robertson and all the rest of them, and then start business as usual again as regards Cody Zeller or Kenny Boynton. If it loses the lawsuit, the effect on the NCAA's financial structure would be profound. About which, at this point, the device has not yet been invented capable of measuring how little I care. Instead, I stand aside and listen to the stomping and the hooting from the thick Cretaceous rain forest, which is just loud enough to drown out the high whistling sound of something coming down from the sky.

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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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Pinky wrote:Why the fuck do those idiots think the school has to pay for the coaches' families to travel? They're worried about losing money because they've decided they "need" to spend more than they can afford.

The real problem with the NCAA is not that they don't buy plane tickets for the wives of men who are paid six-figures. The problem is that they are a cartel that makes money off of the uncompensated labor of players.
Compare the cost of their education, housing, food, and tutoring to the wage a 17-22 year old would receive in the market-- would they still be underpaid? If they redshirt, they'd have enough to practically get a masters degree. And what about the athletes in the money losing sports (everything Title IX, swimming, lacrosse, etc...)?
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

Post by nafod »

Being a penn stater, i watch the reality of football with awe. There are insane amounts of money involved, which gives it tremendous heft. Reminds me of lifting a really heavy weight. Once it gets heavy enough, no matter how strong you are, you are moving yourself around the weight as much as you are moving the weight.

Fact is the football program here was a key springboard for turning Penn state into a leading research university, thanks to Paterno. A deal with the devil of sorts, as it turns out.


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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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nafod wrote:Reminds me of lifting a really heavy weight. Once it gets heavy enough, no matter how strong you are, you are moving yourself around the weight as much as you are moving the weight.

This is a sublime analogy for the nature of money in general.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

Post by Holeyfraggaroley »

Yes the Universities and NCAA make alot of money off the sports. The schools do pay for their education. Consider that the cost for tuition alone at USC is $184,000 for four years. I can't feel real sorry for them. Maybe the school should pay books and room and board. If they do that puts them up $249,000. So really...they get an education, get to play a GAME by choice, and bang a truck load of pussy. They are so oppressed.

Maybe the NCAA should pay them for likenesses and what not, but do it after they graduate from school. I am pretty sure you guys don't get paid by the company that you work for if they put your picture on something. How about this. They can pay for their education, like everyone else, and play football and get paid for that. Have base pay for Fros, Soph, Junior and Seniors (get more if you stay longer). IF they go to the post season kick in a little bonus. If their jersey number sells well that year kick in a bonus, but when they leave the University that stops. They will be part of a company(football team). You fuck up you get fired or fined. Coaches can recruit with money, but not ALL players will go to the money. Just like not everyone takes a job that pays more but has a suckass location. Smart coaches and dumb athletes could save Universities a hefty chunk of money by scaling the pay properly and "helping" the player with financial aid.

Either way I DON'T GIVE A FUCK!


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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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I think that a bigger issue would be distribution of money among schools than paying athletes, especially in NCAAF.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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Turdacious wrote:
Pinky wrote:Why the fuck do those idiots think the school has to pay for the coaches' families to travel? They're worried about losing money because they've decided they "need" to spend more than they can afford.

The real problem with the NCAA is not that they don't buy plane tickets for the wives of men who are paid six-figures. The problem is that they are a cartel that makes money off of the uncompensated labor of players.
Compare the cost of their education, housing, food, and tutoring to the wage a 17-22 year old would receive in the market-- would they still be underpaid?
Why on earth would I compare the value of scholarships, etc. a star basketball player receives to the wages of people with less valued skills?
And what about the athletes in the money losing sports (everything Title IX, swimming, lacrosse, etc...)?
What about them? They should be paid as close to the nothing they're worth as Title IX allows. Most of those sports should be demoted to the club level.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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Pinky wrote: Why on earth would I compare the value of scholarships, etc. a star basketball player receives to the wages of people with less valued skills?
What about guys who may never play but who are in either fb or bb? Do you think they should get paid more than the tennis stud? Do you think that all fb players should be paid the same or should it be open bidding for the elite?

Johnny Manziel has been successful in suing people who using his likeness - other than his own school. However, the case opens up several possibilities.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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Pinky wrote:
Turdacious wrote:
Pinky wrote:Why the fuck do those idiots think the school has to pay for the coaches' families to travel? They're worried about losing money because they've decided they "need" to spend more than they can afford.

The real problem with the NCAA is not that they don't buy plane tickets for the wives of men who are paid six-figures. The problem is that they are a cartel that makes money off of the uncompensated labor of players.
Compare the cost of their education, housing, food, and tutoring to the wage a 17-22 year old would receive in the market-- would they still be underpaid?
Why on earth would I compare the value of scholarships, etc. a star basketball player receives to the wages of people with less valued skills?
Few players make it to the D league, a very select few make it to the NBA. They receive more in compensation as scholarship athletes than they would as D league players (and very few of them make it to the NBA). Same holds true with the NFL/Arena League, and MLB/minors.
Pinky wrote:
Turdacious wrote:And what about the athletes in the money losing sports (everything Title IX, swimming, lacrosse, etc...)?
What about them? They should be paid as close to the nothing they're worth as Title IX allows. Most of those sports should be demoted to the club level.
Title IX requires equity. The overwhelming majority, big money sports or otherwise, are getting a great deal.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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Many current and former college basketball players all have the same goal, make it to the NBA. Many players will play in the NBA Developmental league in order to have the potential chance of being called up to the NBA. While the 2011-2012 NBA season saw the most D-league call ups in the history of the league, the number was still only 50. And while 50 might sound like a large number of players who have been called up, it is a misleading figure. Of those 50, there are regular NBA players who have been injured or are struggling with their performance and are sent down to the D-league in order to get back in the flow of the game. Once rehabbed and healthy, or producing at an efficient level, the then D-league player is called back up to the NBA. This figure is included in the 50. Further, some of these players included in the 50 statistic are players who have been signed to a ten day contract. Once that ten day contract is up, they are sent back to the D-league only to try and earn their way to another ten day contract to try and prove their worth. Of the 50, only a minimal amount actually stay put in the NBA.

The worst part about basketball players staying in the USA and playing in the D-league is the fact that most D-league salaries range from only $12,000 to $24,000.
http://www.sportsagentblog.com/2012/07/ ... to-europe/
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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Not the most authoritative source, but the math holds.
There are roughly 900 teams in college basketball, with an average of about 12-13 players per team, not included inactive players, which means over 10,000 players per year. There are roughly 360 active NBA players.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percenta ... _NBA_teams
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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Turdacious wrote:
Many current and former college basketball players all have the same goal, make it to the NBA. Many players will play in the NBA Developmental league in order to have the potential chance of being called up to the NBA. While the 2011-2012 NBA season saw the most D-league call ups in the history of the league, the number was still only 50. And while 50 might sound like a large number of players who have been called up, it is a misleading figure. Of those 50, there are regular NBA players who have been injured or are struggling with their performance and are sent down to the D-league in order to get back in the flow of the game. Once rehabbed and healthy, or producing at an efficient level, the then D-league player is called back up to the NBA. This figure is included in the 50. Further, some of these players included in the 50 statistic are players who have been signed to a ten day contract. Once that ten day contract is up, they are sent back to the D-league only to try and earn their way to another ten day contract to try and prove their worth. Of the 50, only a minimal amount actually stay put in the NBA.

The worst part about basketball players staying in the USA and playing in the D-league is the fact that most D-league salaries range from only $12,000 to $24,000.
http://www.sportsagentblog.com/2012/07/ ... to-europe/
The D-League is a tough one. For every Kelenna Azubuike (I think out of the league after tearing up his patellar tendon) there are a ton of Nick Fazekas type players who end up in Japan, Israel, Turkey etc.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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from Grantland:
The weekend began with a demonstration of something that was both wilder than the Louisville press and more baffling than the Syracuse zone. That was NCAA president Mark Emmert's employment of what many observers took to be the English language in an attempt to talk his way around the fact that the entire system over which he presently is presiding is on the verge of absolute collapse. The true nature of the NCAA as little more than a cartel profiting from underpaid — or unpaid — labor steadily had been becoming clear even before Taylor Branch hit the whole thing with a two-by-four in the pages of The Atlantic. The most immediate evidence for the prosecution came only last week, when Louisville's Kevin Ware blew up his leg in a regional final, and it raised questions about who might be responsible for his medical bills — a fine illustration of the point made by Branch that the rubric of "student-athlete" had been invented so the colleges could dodge workers' compensation claims arising from the brutal early days of college football — while Louisville started marketing Ware-themed T-shirts almost immediately after Ware had come off the operating table.

So Emmert took to the podium on Thursday, and simultaneously took refuge in some combination of bureaucratese and fluent Weaselspeak that was within 3-point range of actual English. He was attempting to explain how the NCAA's latest stalling tactic — the "miscellaneous expense allowance" (who names this stuff, anyway?) — doesn't in any way conflict with the organization's stated position that a college athlete should not be paid. Gaze in awe.

The second big issue was the issue of increase in the value of scholarships to the full cost of attendance. This is the so-called miscellaneous expense allowance, the proposal to allow schools to, at their option, increase the value of scholarships an additional $2,000 to cover what's referred to in higher education jargon as a "miscellaneous expense," sometimes confused with "pay for play," which is absolutely wrong. It is to cover the real cost of attendance and only the real cost of attendance for a student-athlete.
Catholic theologians who argue that the Church must not change its position on, for example, birth control, occasionally do so by arguing that a pope who would change such policies has to account for all the people who were accounted sinners under the previous policy and may in fact, at the moment, be residing in the postmortal suite of the Gehenna Arms. (No, really. "What do we do about the people who already are in hell for violating the old policy?" I've actually heard this.) Emmert's gotten himself in rather a similar box here. Down through the years, various people — alumni, boosters, shoe company reps, the odd talent scout or five — have been "covering the real cost of attendance of the student-athlete" and, when they or the athlete got caught, the athlete got shamed and his school got punished. Now, with his organization in moral tatters, and the whole business model tottering around him, Emmert decides in a squid-cloud of word-ink that a little extra somethin'-somethin' is really ethical as long as it's laundered through euphemism. What about all those schools that found themselves on probation down through the years for doing exactly what Emmert's proposing now? Do we all owe Dana Kirk and the Fab Five an apology?

Mark, dude. Let the light dawn. As soon as you allow athletes to pick up extra money because they are athletes, that's the ball game. It doesn't matter if you call it a salary, or a stipend, or a "miscellaneous expense allowance" — though I really wish you wouldn't call it that — you are giving the basketball player extra money because he is playing basketball. He is playing and the school is paying. I have been paying close attention to this stuff for going on 40 years and what you're proposing is exactly what the NCAA told me was wrong and awful through about 38.5 of those years. You were up there, because the real powers in the sport, the TV networks and the university presidents and the commissioners of the various conferences, let you in through the tradesman's entrance to be the front man for a crumbling charade, essentially to make the same argument Chris Webber was making 20 years ago when he asked why his "miscellaneous expenses" were not allowed. The players know it. Russ Smith and Luke Hancock and Trey Burke and Mitch McGary all know it. They knew it when they got here and they'll know it tonight when they throw the ball up to make a whole lot of strangers even more wealthy. They all know the system's dying, and that the loudest noise in Atlanta is not the cheering or the pep bands. It is the distant, thundering hooves of all those horses long ago let out of the barn.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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Turdacious wrote:
Pinky wrote:
Turdacious wrote:And what about the athletes in the money losing sports (everything Title IX, swimming, lacrosse, etc...)?
What about them? They should be paid as close to the nothing they're worth as Title IX allows. Most of those sports should be demoted to the club level.
Title IX requires equity. The overwhelming majority, big money sports or otherwise, are getting a great deal.
No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance...
I'm sure there would be lawsuits, but there's nothing in this wording that suggests schools couldn't engage in a bidding war for a star prospect, as long as they don't pay for their bid by reducing scholarship opportunities for the opposite sex.* There's certainly nothing there that would forbid an endorsement deal with an outside company. The real problem is that the schools are colluding through the NCAA.

*Here's how you could prove me wrong: find cases where a school was busted by the NCAA for paying athletes and then hit with a Title IX lawsuit as a result.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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Pinky wrote:I'm sure there would be lawsuits, but there's nothing in this wording that suggests schools couldn't engage in a bidding war for a star prospect, as long as they don't pay for their bid by reducing scholarship opportunities for the opposite sex.* There's certainly nothing there that would forbid an endorsement deal with an outside company. The real problem is that the schools are colluding through the NCAA.

*Here's how you could prove me wrong: find cases where a school was busted by the NCAA for paying athletes and then hit with a Title IX lawsuit as a result.
The * is where we disagree. I tend to believe that there would have to be equity of pay, despite real world prospects and profitability (much like pay equity for a women's studies professor and an applied math professor).

And the whole issue is murky at best, there are a lot of factors that have to be considered (I found this analysis to be pretty good in that regard). Most of the analysis I've seem has been simplistic at best (players should be based on university profits, no mention of who should get paid and who shouldn't, etc...). Left out is the reality that most college athletic programs are not profitable, and to even be economically feasible, a lot of teams get paid to go into somebody's stadium to get beat.

IMO the real issue is whether the players are student-athletes or contract employees/independent contractors. If the NCAA gets rid of this fiction, I would guess the entire dynamic of college athletics would change.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

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Seems somewhat relevant. Alabama's coaches got a nice pay bump: http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... ball-coach

Saban up to $5.62 million/year
Kirby Smart (Defensive Coordinator) up to $1.28 million
OC = $680k
D-Line = $360k
LB's = $400k
TE/Special Teams = $400k
RBs = $300k
New O-Line 2 year contract = $475k (I'm guessing/year)
Receivers/recruiting coordinator + WR coaches = $300k
S&C = $350k (!)
Director of player personnel signs on at $200k/year

I'm not a math wiz, but that's $9.965 million for the football program. Not counting the team trainer, equipment manager (is he a student?) and other staff.

There's no way the head S&C coach is working with anyone other than the football program, right? His assistants probably work with women's volleyball or something.

If they gave a proportionate amount of money to the actual players (just for shits and giggles) that would be $117k, give or take, I think.

Someone check my numbers.

I'm sure the football program brings in much more than $9.9 million per year. I'm torn on whether, or how to pay players, and waver from day to day, but holy crap. That's a lot of money for 12 people.
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Turdacious
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

Post by Turdacious »

Determining average/minimum employee pay for an industry based on the premier company/institution is kind of silly.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

Post by baffled »

No shit.
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Re: What's Wrong With The NCAA

Post by Protobuilder »

Saban is the devil but the football program

produced $82 million in revenue and had a profit of $45.1 million.
Plus, every game at Bryant-Denny Stadium provides Tuscaloosa an economic impact of about $25 million.
McDonald's pays their CEO $9m though the folks who take your order make a bit less than that. The NCAA is set up in the same manner.
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